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Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

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  • SemioticSymphony@aol.com
    Hello Tom and fellow listers: I think the very issues of story and discourse are difficult because they have the tendency to deflect inquiry into our texts
    Message 1 of 16 , Jan 20, 2011
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      Hello Tom and fellow listers:

      I think the very issues of story and discourse are difficult because they have the tendency to deflect inquiry into our texts toward the writer doing the inquiring. This phenomenon occurs primarily because of the interpretive gestures and semantic transformations our strategies betray. I believe Hellen is working this kind of thing through with Jack on this thread.

      Though I am very interested in the assumptions we make as we approach FG (or any text, really) I do not think that the work on which such assumptions operate negates the entire enterprise, except where assumptions contain fatal flaws of logic, errors of fact, etc. Jack, our resident Aramaicist (if I may be so bold), continues to illuminate biblical texts for us with a sensitivity to language and literary convention, even as Hellen's challenges move the discussion forward.

      so, have at it!

      Joe
      Joseph Calandrino






      -----Original Message-----
      From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
      To: johannine_literature <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Mon, Jan 17, 2011 4:54 pm
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John




      Joe and Members of the Johannine Literature List,
      I look forward to reading a thread addressed to the question you pose, Joe.





      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: Mardaga, Hellen Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM To: Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
      Message 2 of 16 , Jan 21, 2011
      • 0 Attachment
        --------------------------------------------------
        From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...>
        Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

        > Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
        >
        > I am surprised to read the following statement:
        > Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
        >> Pontus,
        >> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
        >> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
        >> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
        >> you
        >> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
        >> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
        >> ἐὰν
        >> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
        >> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
        >> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
        >
        > The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
        > “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do not
        > see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the historical
        > Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
        > aspects of rhetoric:
        >
        > - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
        > parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
        > necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
        > parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?

        Hi Hellen:

        Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
        infrequently.

        Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
        aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course. Assonance,
        paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an individual
        in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have been
        anything other than Aramaic.



        > - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.

        Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
        evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
        words.

        Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
        interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.


        > He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
        > it. We can only “assume” what he might have said

        I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
        Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
        words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
        he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
        scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the last
        decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
        Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
        have indications he was familiar with Targums.

        Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
        third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking country
        so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his mother
        tongue.

        Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the strongest
        of the Gospels.


        > - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
        > Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in written
        > texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
        > composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
        > suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening audience
        > and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by mnemotechnic
        > features.

        That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel in
        his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
        lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the Aramaic
        is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first penned...er...reeded..by
        Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and there
        is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.

        The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists from
        Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
        creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
        definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

        I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
        (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed in
        alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
        (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
        (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
        transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
        aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?

        "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"

        Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
        transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
        first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
        ELWI.

        In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have heard
        Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector reading
        the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
        אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני

        Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering of
        the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
        us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped aleph
        and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.

        If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
        then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.

        Is it cold in DC?

        Regards,

        Jack

        Jack Kilmon
        San Antonio, TX



        >
        > Dr. Hellen Mardaga
        > Assistant Professor of New Testament
        > The Catholic University of America
        > Caldwel Hall 419
        > 620 Michigan Av.
        > 20064 Washington DC
        > 202-319-6885
      • Mardaga, Hellen
        Dear Jack, yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter..... One should avoid statements or certainties with regard to claims about the
        Message 3 of 16 , Jan 22, 2011
        • 0 Attachment
          Dear Jack,



          yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter.....



          One should avoid statements or "certainties" with regard to claims about the "historical" Jesus. I have discovered that all to often people say things about the historical jesus (what he did, how he spoke, where he went to etc...)that sound as if they were personally present at the scenery (no ofense). There really is no straightforward evidence with regard to the literacy of Jesus, only possibilities or probabilities.



          I also think - but I might be wrong- that you overlook the very important distinction between the real Jesus (whom we do not know and never will) and the historical Jesus (the Jesus we recover through scientific research).



          Hellen















          ________________________________
          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com [johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jack Kilmon [jkilmon@...]
          Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:36 PM
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John




          --------------------------------------------------
          From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...<mailto:MARDAGA%40cua.edu>>
          Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>>
          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

          > Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
          >
          > I am surprised to read the following statement:
          > Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
          >> Pontus,
          >> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
          >> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
          >> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
          >> you
          >> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
          >> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
          >> ἐὰν
          >> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
          >> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
          >> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
          >
          > The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
          > “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do not
          > see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the historical
          > Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
          > aspects of rhetoric:
          >
          > - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
          > parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
          > necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
          > parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?

          Hi Hellen:

          Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
          infrequently.

          Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
          aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course. Assonance,
          paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an individual
          in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have been
          anything other than Aramaic.

          > - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.

          Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
          evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
          words.

          Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
          interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.

          > He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
          > it. We can only “assume” what he might have said

          I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
          Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
          words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
          he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
          scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the last
          decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
          Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
          have indications he was familiar with Targums.

          Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
          third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking country
          so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his mother
          tongue.

          Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the strongest
          of the Gospels.

          > - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
          > Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in written
          > texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
          > composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
          > suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening audience
          > and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by mnemotechnic
          > features.

          That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel in
          his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
          lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the Aramaic
          is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first penned...er...reeded..by
          Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and there
          is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.

          The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists from
          Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
          creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
          definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"

          I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
          (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed in
          alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
          (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
          (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
          transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
          aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?

          "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"

          Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
          transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
          first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
          ELWI.

          In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have heard
          Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector reading
          the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
          אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני

          Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering of
          the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
          us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped aleph
          and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.

          If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
          then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.

          Is it cold in DC?

          Regards,

          Jack

          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX

          >
          > Dr. Hellen Mardaga
          > Assistant Professor of New Testament
          > The Catholic University of America
          > Caldwel Hall 419
          > 620 Michigan Av.
          > 20064 Washington DC
          > 202-319-6885
        • Jack Kilmon
          Hi Hellen: Since it is a given that the real Jesus is lost to history, the historical Jesus is as close as we are going to get. We get as close as we can
          Message 4 of 16 , Jan 22, 2011
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi Hellen:

            Since it is a given that the "real Jesus" is lost to history, the
            "historical Jesus" is as close as we are going to get. We get as close as
            we can through both a critical analysis of the texts and steeped in the
            social, cultural, religious and linguistic anthropology of the late second
            temple period. As a result and per exemplum, I do not know if the REAL
            Jesus wore sandals. I do know that they were the standard footwear and some
            have been recovered at Qumran and Wadi Muraba'at and the texts tell me he
            did a lot of walking. As a result, I think I am very safe in stating,
            almost apodictically, Jesus wore sandals.
            I don't know what the REAL Jesus wore in addition to the sandals but
            standard dress was an inner tunic, a tunic coat (Kitonet), a girdle or belt
            of leather, a mantle that was like a robe, similar to a Gilabiyah and a
            headdress not unlike a prayer shawl or tallit. Examples of these pieces of
            clothing have been found, some fairly well preserved and I would bet the
            mayonnaise farm that is what the historical and the real Jesus wore, albeit
            I cannot tell you about colors. I can tell from the archaeological evidence
            what kind of cups he drank from and ate from and what kind of wine he drank
            and food he ate. We also have a very good idea of infrastructure and the
            types of houses he lived in as well as social and family praxis. I can say
            with strong conviction that he spoke Aramaic and even know enough of the
            idiom to know he didn't say some of the things we think he said.

            I think he really did, honestly and for true, actually heal a lot of people,
            again with good reason rather than "faith."

            All I am saying is that if you look at the whole elephant from all of the
            indicators at out disposal, there is much we can say about the only REAL
            Jesus we will ever know, the historical Jesus.

            shlama

            Jack

            Jack Kilmon
            San Antonio, TX

            --------------------------------------------------
            From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...>
            Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:30 AM
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

            > Dear Jack,
            >
            >
            >
            > yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter.....
            >
            >
            >
            > One should avoid statements or "certainties" with regard to claims about
            > the "historical" Jesus. I have discovered that all to often people say
            > things about the historical jesus (what he did, how he spoke, where he
            > went to etc...)that sound as if they were personally present at the
            > scenery (no ofense). There really is no straightforward evidence with
            > regard to the literacy of Jesus, only possibilities or probabilities.
            >
            >
            >
            > I also think - but I might be wrong- that you overlook the very important
            > distinction between the real Jesus (whom we do not know and never will)
            > and the historical Jesus (the Jesus we recover through scientific
            > research).
            >
            >
            >
            > Hellen

            >
            >
            > ________________________________
            > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > [johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jack Kilmon
            > [jkilmon@...]
            > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:36 PM
            > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > --------------------------------------------------
            > From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...<mailto:MARDAGA%40cua.edu>>
            > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
            > To:
            > <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>>
            > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
            >
            >> Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
            >>
            >> I am surprised to read the following statement:
            >> Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
            >>> Pontus,
            >>> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
            >>> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
            >>> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
            >>> you
            >>> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
            >>> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
            >>> ἐὰν
            >>> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
            >>> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
            >>> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
            >>
            >> The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
            >> “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do not
            >> see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the historical
            >> Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
            >> aspects of rhetoric:
            >>
            >> - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
            >> parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
            >> necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
            >> parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?
            >
            > Hi Hellen:
            >
            > Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
            > infrequently.
            >
            > Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
            > aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course.
            > Assonance,
            > paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an
            > individual
            > in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have
            > been
            > anything other than Aramaic.
            >
            >> - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.
            >
            > Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
            > evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
            > words.
            >
            > Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
            > interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.
            >
            >> He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
            >> it. We can only “assume” what he might have said
            >
            > I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
            > Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
            > words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
            > he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
            > scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the last
            > decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
            > Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
            > have indications he was familiar with Targums.
            >
            > Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
            > third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking
            > country
            > so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his mother
            > tongue.
            >
            > Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the
            > strongest
            > of the Gospels.
            >
            >> - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
            >> Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in
            >> written
            >> texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
            >> composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
            >> suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening audience
            >> and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by
            >> mnemotechnic
            >> features.
            >
            > That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel in
            > his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
            > lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the Aramaic
            > is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first
            > penned...er...reeded..by
            > Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and there
            > is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.
            >
            > The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists from
            > Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
            > creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
            > definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
            >
            > I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
            > (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed
            > in
            > alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
            > (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
            > (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
            > transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
            > aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?
            >
            > "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"
            >
            > Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
            > transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
            > first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
            > ELWI.
            >
            > In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have
            > heard
            > Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector
            > reading
            > the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
            > אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני
            >
            > Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering of
            > the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
            > us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped aleph
            > and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.
            >
            > If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
            > then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.
            >
            > Is it cold in DC?
            >
            > Regards,
            >
            > Jack
            >
            > Jack Kilmon
            > San Antonio, TX
            >
            >>
            >> Dr. Hellen Mardaga
            >> Assistant Professor of New Testament
            >> The Catholic University of America
            >> Caldwel Hall 419
            >> 620 Michigan Av.
            >> 20064 Washington DC
            >> 202-319-6885
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          • Matthew Estrada
            Jack, You speak in generalities, but the gospel stories are specific. And that, I am afraid, you cannot claim with certainty (the mayonaise farm), what the
            Message 5 of 16 , Jan 22, 2011
            • 0 Attachment
              Jack,

              You speak in generalities, but the gospel stories are specific. And that, I am
              afraid, you cannot claim with certainty (the mayonaise farm), what the REAL
              Jesus DID. Did he indeed turn water into wine?

              Matt Estrada
              peasant




              ________________________________
              From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 9:12:45 PM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

               
              Hi Hellen:

              Since it is a given that the "real Jesus" is lost to history, the
              "historical Jesus" is as close as we are going to get. We get as close as
              we can through both a critical analysis of the texts and steeped in the
              social, cultural, religious and linguistic anthropology of the late second
              temple period. As a result and per exemplum, I do not know if the REAL
              Jesus wore sandals. I do know that they were the standard footwear and some
              have been recovered at Qumran and Wadi Muraba'at and the texts tell me he
              did a lot of walking. As a result, I think I am very safe in stating,
              almost apodictically, Jesus wore sandals.
              I don't know what the REAL Jesus wore in addition to the sandals but
              standard dress was an inner tunic, a tunic coat (Kitonet), a girdle or belt
              of leather, a mantle that was like a robe, similar to a Gilabiyah and a
              headdress not unlike a prayer shawl or tallit. Examples of these pieces of
              clothing have been found, some fairly well preserved and I would bet the
              mayonnaise farm that is what the historical and the real Jesus wore, albeit
              I cannot tell you about colors. I can tell from the archaeological evidence
              what kind of cups he drank from and ate from and what kind of wine he drank
              and food he ate. We also have a very good idea of infrastructure and the
              types of houses he lived in as well as social and family praxis. I can say
              with strong conviction that he spoke Aramaic and even know enough of the
              idiom to know he didn't say some of the things we think he said.

              I think he really did, honestly and for true, actually heal a lot of people,
              again with good reason rather than "faith."

              All I am saying is that if you look at the whole elephant from all of the
              indicators at out disposal, there is much we can say about the only REAL
              Jesus we will ever know, the historical Jesus.

              shlama

              Jack

              Jack Kilmon
              San Antonio, TX

              --------------------------------------------------
              From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...>
              Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:30 AM
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

              > Dear Jack,
              >
              >
              >
              > yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter.....
              >
              >
              >
              > One should avoid statements or "certainties" with regard to claims about
              > the "historical" Jesus. I have discovered that all to often people say
              > things about the historical jesus (what he did, how he spoke, where he
              > went to etc...)that sound as if they were personally present at the
              > scenery (no ofense). There really is no straightforward evidence with
              > regard to the literacy of Jesus, only possibilities or probabilities.
              >
              >
              >
              > I also think - but I might be wrong- that you overlook the very important
              > distinction between the real Jesus (whom we do not know and never will)
              > and the historical Jesus (the Jesus we recover through scientific
              > research).
              >
              >
              >
              > Hellen

              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > [johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jack Kilmon
              > [jkilmon@...]
              > Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:36 PM
              > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > --------------------------------------------------
              > From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...<mailto:MARDAGA%40cua.edu>>
              > Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
              > To:
              ><johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>>
              >>
              > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
              >
              >> Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
              >>
              >> I am surprised to read the following statement:
              >> Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
              >>> Pontus,
              >>> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
              >>> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
              >>> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
              >>> you
              >>> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
              >>> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
              >>> ἐὰν
              >>> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
              >>> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
              >>> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
              >>
              >> The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
              >> “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do not
              >> see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the historical
              >> Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
              >> aspects of rhetoric:
              >>
              >> - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
              >> parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
              >> necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
              >> parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?
              >
              > Hi Hellen:
              >
              > Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
              > infrequently.
              >
              > Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
              > aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course.
              > Assonance,
              > paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an
              > individual
              > in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have
              > been
              > anything other than Aramaic.
              >
              >> - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.
              >
              > Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
              > evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
              > words.
              >
              > Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
              > interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.
              >
              >> He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
              >> it. We can only “assume” what he might have said
              >
              > I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
              > Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
              > words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
              > he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
              > scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the last
              > decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
              > Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
              > have indications he was familiar with Targums.
              >
              > Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
              > third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking
              > country
              > so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his mother
              > tongue.
              >
              > Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the
              > strongest
              > of the Gospels.
              >
              >> - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
              >> Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in
              >> written
              >> texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
              >> composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
              >> suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening audience
              >> and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by
              >> mnemotechnic
              >> features.
              >
              > That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel in
              > his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
              > lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the Aramaic
              > is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first
              > penned...er...reeded..by
              > Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and there
              > is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.
              >
              > The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists from
              > Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
              > creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
              > definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
              >
              > I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
              > (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed
              > in
              > alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
              > (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
              > (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
              > transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
              > aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?
              >
              > "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"
              >
              > Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
              > transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
              > first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
              > ELWI.
              >
              > In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have
              > heard
              > Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector
              > reading
              > the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
              > אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני
              >
              > Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering of
              > the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
              > us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped aleph
              > and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.
              >
              > If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
              > then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.
              >
              > Is it cold in DC?
              >
              > Regards,
              >
              > Jack
              >
              > Jack Kilmon
              > San Antonio, TX
              >
              >>
              >> Dr. Hellen Mardaga
              >> Assistant Professor of New Testament
              >> The Catholic University of America
              >> Caldwel Hall 419
              >> 620 Michigan Av.
              >> 20064 Washington DC
              >> 202-319-6885
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
              > Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >






              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              No, Matt, I do not believe he turned water into wine. The miracle stories and supernatural events are an entirely different animal in HJ studies, primarily
              Message 6 of 16 , Jan 23, 2011
              • 0 Attachment
                No, Matt, I do not believe he turned water into wine. The miracle stories
                and supernatural events are an entirely different animal in HJ studies,
                primarily ignored in the various "quests."
                In the cyclic "quests" for the historical Jesus, in the past, much focus has
                been placed on the sayings of Jesus. Other important aspects in the "quest"
                have good foundations in the cultural anthropology of
                1st century Palestine. These elements are woefully absent in much debate
                concerning the historical Jesus. The miracle stories, however, were ignored
                because of the historical difficulty.

                In the 1st century Middle East any disease, disability or infirmity was
                considered divine punishment for some transgression against God or for sin.
                This is a silly concept today (albeit still promulgated by primitive
                evangelical types like Pat Robertson regarding the AIDS epidemic). Back to
                the 1st century. Hysterical pathologies resulting from guilt feelings over
                perceived transgressions would have been rampant in that society where
                literally thousands of "sinners" expected imminent retribution from God.
                These hysterically based infirmities, called Conversion Disorders, are
                often seen today by psychiatrists and most commonly are some form of
                paralysis (healed by Jesus at Mark 3:1) 1, 2, 3, blindness (Mark 8:22;
                10:49) 4, skin eruptions, all of which were called "Leprosy" in the 1st
                century (healed Mark 1:40) and deafness (healed Mark 7:32) 5. Given a
                healer whom the victim believed had the authority from God to heal the sin,
                many of these infirmities would have been instantly healed (6) and failures
                chalked up to "lack of faith." The reputation of Jesus as a healer spread
                like wildfire.

                There were other healers sashaying from place to place but the higher rate
                of success for Jesus may have been the perception by the am ha'aretz that he
                was the bar nasha and had God's authority to forgive sin which the gospels
                relate was a sharp thorn in the butts of the temple crowd who could only
                play the "healing on a sabbath" ruse to trip him up.

                The point is that some of the "miracles" actually happened.

                1.Heruti RJ, Reznik J, Adunski A, et al. Conversion motor paralysis
                disorder: analysis of 34 consecutive referrals. Spinal Cord 2002;40:335-40.
                2.Heruti RJ, Levy A, Adunski A, et al. Conversion motor paralysis disorder:
                overview and rehabilitation model. Spinal Cord 2002;40:327-34.
                3.Letonoff EJ, Williams TR, Sidhu KS. Hysterical paralysis: a report of
                three cases and a review of the literature. Spine 2002;27:441-5.
                4.Freud, Sigmund. (1910i). The psycho-analytic view of psychogenic
                disturbance of vision. SE, 11: 209-218.
                5.Loren Pankratza, etal A forced-choice technique to evaluate deafness in
                the hysterical or malingering patient Journal of Consulting and Clinical
                Psychology
                Volume 43, Issue 3, June 1975, Pages 421-422
                6. Ruddy R, House A. Psychosocial interventions for conversion disorder.
                Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2005, Issue 4.

                Jack

                Jack Kilmon
                San Antonio, TX


                --------------------------------------------------
                From: "Matthew Estrada" <matt_estrada@...>
                Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:40 PM
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

                > Jack,
                >
                > You speak in generalities, but the gospel stories are specific. And that,
                > I am
                > afraid, you cannot claim with certainty (the mayonaise farm), what the
                > REAL
                > Jesus DID. Did he indeed turn water into wine?
                >
                > Matt Estrada
                > peasant
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > ________________________________
                > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 9:12:45 PM
                > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                >
                >
                > Hi Hellen:
                >
                > Since it is a given that the "real Jesus" is lost to history, the
                > "historical Jesus" is as close as we are going to get. We get as close as
                > we can through both a critical analysis of the texts and steeped in the
                > social, cultural, religious and linguistic anthropology of the late second
                > temple period. As a result and per exemplum, I do not know if the REAL
                > Jesus wore sandals. I do know that they were the standard footwear and
                > some
                > have been recovered at Qumran and Wadi Muraba'at and the texts tell me he
                > did a lot of walking. As a result, I think I am very safe in stating,
                > almost apodictically, Jesus wore sandals.
                > I don't know what the REAL Jesus wore in addition to the sandals but
                > standard dress was an inner tunic, a tunic coat (Kitonet), a girdle or
                > belt
                > of leather, a mantle that was like a robe, similar to a Gilabiyah and a
                > headdress not unlike a prayer shawl or tallit. Examples of these pieces of
                > clothing have been found, some fairly well preserved and I would bet the
                > mayonnaise farm that is what the historical and the real Jesus wore,
                > albeit
                > I cannot tell you about colors. I can tell from the archaeological
                > evidence
                > what kind of cups he drank from and ate from and what kind of wine he
                > drank
                > and food he ate. We also have a very good idea of infrastructure and the
                > types of houses he lived in as well as social and family praxis. I can say
                > with strong conviction that he spoke Aramaic and even know enough of the
                > idiom to know he didn't say some of the things we think he said.
                >
                > I think he really did, honestly and for true, actually heal a lot of
                > people,
                > again with good reason rather than "faith."
                >
                > All I am saying is that if you look at the whole elephant from all of the
                > indicators at out disposal, there is much we can say about the only REAL
                > Jesus we will ever know, the historical Jesus.
                >
                > shlama
                >
                > Jack
                >
                > Jack Kilmon
                > San Antonio, TX
                >
                > --------------------------------------------------
                > From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...>
                > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:30 AM
                > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                >
                >> Dear Jack,
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter.....
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> One should avoid statements or "certainties" with regard to claims about
                >> the "historical" Jesus. I have discovered that all to often people say
                >> things about the historical jesus (what he did, how he spoke, where he
                >> went to etc...)that sound as if they were personally present at the
                >> scenery (no ofense). There really is no straightforward evidence with
                >> regard to the literacy of Jesus, only possibilities or probabilities.
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> I also think - but I might be wrong- that you overlook the very important
                >> distinction between the real Jesus (whom we do not know and never will)
                >> and the historical Jesus (the Jesus we recover through scientific
                >> research).
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> Hellen
                >
                >>
                >>
                >> ________________________________
                >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                >> [johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jack Kilmon
                >> [jkilmon@...]
                >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:36 PM
                >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> --------------------------------------------------
                >> From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...<mailto:MARDAGA%40cua.edu>>
                >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
                >> To:
                >><johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>>
                >>>
                >> Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                >>
                >>> Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
                >>>
                >>> I am surprised to read the following statement:
                >>> Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
                >>>> Pontus,
                >>>> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
                >>>> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
                >>>> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
                >>>> you
                >>>> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
                >>>> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
                >>>> ἐὰν
                >>>> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
                >>>> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
                >>>> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
                >>>
                >>> The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
                >>> “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do
                >>> not
                >>> see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the
                >>> historical
                >>> Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
                >>> aspects of rhetoric:
                >>>
                >>> - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
                >>> parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
                >>> necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
                >>> parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?
                >>
                >> Hi Hellen:
                >>
                >> Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
                >> infrequently.
                >>
                >> Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
                >> aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course.
                >> Assonance,
                >> paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an
                >> individual
                >> in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have
                >> been
                >> anything other than Aramaic.
                >>
                >>> - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.
                >>
                >> Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
                >> evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
                >> words.
                >>
                >> Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
                >> interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.
                >>
                >>> He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
                >>> it. We can only “assume” what he might have said
                >>
                >> I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
                >> Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
                >> words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
                >> he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
                >> scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the
                >> last
                >> decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
                >> Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
                >> have indications he was familiar with Targums.
                >>
                >> Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
                >> third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking
                >> country
                >> so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his
                >> mother
                >> tongue.
                >>
                >> Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the
                >> strongest
                >> of the Gospels.
                >>
                >>> - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
                >>> Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in
                >>> written
                >>> texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
                >>> composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
                >>> suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening
                >>> audience
                >>> and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by
                >>> mnemotechnic
                >>> features.
                >>
                >> That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel
                >> in
                >> his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
                >> lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the
                >> Aramaic
                >> is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first
                >> penned...er...reeded..by
                >> Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and
                >> there
                >> is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.
                >>
                >> The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists
                >> from
                >> Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
                >> creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
                >> definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
                >>
                >> I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
                >> (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed
                >> in
                >> alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
                >> (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
                >> (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
                >> transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
                >> aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?
                >>
                >> "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"
                >>
                >> Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
                >> transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
                >> first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
                >> ELWI.
                >>
                >> In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have
                >> heard
                >> Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector
                >> reading
                >> the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
                >> אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני
                >>
                >> Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering
                >> of
                >> the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
                >> us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped
                >> aleph
                >> and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.
                >>
                >> If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
                >> then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.
                >>
                >> Is it cold in DC?
                >>
                >> Regards,
                >>
                >> Jack
                >>
                >> Jack Kilmon
                >> San Antonio, TX
                >>
                >>>
                >>> Dr. Hellen Mardaga
                >>> Assistant Professor of New Testament
                >>> The Catholic University of America
                >>> Caldwel Hall 419
                >>> 620 Michigan Av.
                >>> 20064 Washington DC
                >>> 202-319-6885
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >> ------------------------------------
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              • Matthew Estrada
                Thanks, Jack, for your well-thought out response. Matt ________________________________ From: Jack Kilmon To:
                Message 7 of 16 , Jan 23, 2011
                • 0 Attachment
                  Thanks, Jack, for your well-thought out response.

                  Matt



                  ________________________________
                  From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Sun, January 23, 2011 9:58:03 AM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

                   
                  No, Matt, I do not believe he turned water into wine. The miracle stories
                  and supernatural events are an entirely different animal in HJ studies,
                  primarily ignored in the various "quests."
                  In the cyclic "quests" for the historical Jesus, in the past, much focus has
                  been placed on the sayings of Jesus. Other important aspects in the "quest"
                  have good foundations in the cultural anthropology of
                  1st century Palestine. These elements are woefully absent in much debate
                  concerning the historical Jesus. The miracle stories, however, were ignored
                  because of the historical difficulty.

                  In the 1st century Middle East any disease, disability or infirmity was
                  considered divine punishment for some transgression against God or for sin.
                  This is a silly concept today (albeit still promulgated by primitive
                  evangelical types like Pat Robertson regarding the AIDS epidemic). Back to
                  the 1st century. Hysterical pathologies resulting from guilt feelings over
                  perceived transgressions would have been rampant in that society where
                  literally thousands of "sinners" expected imminent retribution from God.
                  These hysterically based infirmities, called Conversion Disorders, are
                  often seen today by psychiatrists and most commonly are some form of
                  paralysis (healed by Jesus at Mark 3:1) 1, 2, 3, blindness (Mark 8:22;
                  10:49) 4, skin eruptions, all of which were called "Leprosy" in the 1st
                  century (healed Mark 1:40) and deafness (healed Mark 7:32) 5. Given a
                  healer whom the victim believed had the authority from God to heal the sin,
                  many of these infirmities would have been instantly healed (6) and failures
                  chalked up to "lack of faith." The reputation of Jesus as a healer spread
                  like wildfire.

                  There were other healers sashaying from place to place but the higher rate
                  of success for Jesus may have been the perception by the am ha'aretz that he
                  was the bar nasha and had God's authority to forgive sin which the gospels
                  relate was a sharp thorn in the butts of the temple crowd who could only
                  play the "healing on a sabbath" ruse to trip him up.

                  The point is that some of the "miracles" actually happened.

                  1.Heruti RJ, Reznik J, Adunski A, et al. Conversion motor paralysis
                  disorder: analysis of 34 consecutive referrals. Spinal Cord 2002;40:335-40.
                  2.Heruti RJ, Levy A, Adunski A, et al. Conversion motor paralysis disorder:
                  overview and rehabilitation model. Spinal Cord 2002;40:327-34.
                  3.Letonoff EJ, Williams TR, Sidhu KS. Hysterical paralysis: a report of
                  three cases and a review of the literature. Spine 2002;27:441-5.
                  4.Freud, Sigmund. (1910i). The psycho-analytic view of psychogenic
                  disturbance of vision. SE, 11: 209-218.
                  5.Loren Pankratza, etal A forced-choice technique to evaluate deafness in
                  the hysterical or malingering patient Journal of Consulting and Clinical
                  Psychology
                  Volume 43, Issue 3, June 1975, Pages 421-422
                  6. Ruddy R, House A. Psychosocial interventions for conversion disorder.
                  Cochrane Database of Systematic Reviews 2005, Issue 4.

                  Jack

                  Jack Kilmon
                  San Antonio, TX

                  --------------------------------------------------
                  From: "Matthew Estrada" <matt_estrada@...>
                  Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 8:40 PM
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John

                  > Jack,
                  >
                  > You speak in generalities, but the gospel stories are specific. And that,
                  > I am
                  > afraid, you cannot claim with certainty (the mayonaise farm), what the
                  > REAL
                  > Jesus DID. Did he indeed turn water into wine?
                  >
                  > Matt Estrada
                  > peasant
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                  > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > Sent: Sat, January 22, 2011 9:12:45 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                  >
                  >
                  > Hi Hellen:
                  >
                  > Since it is a given that the "real Jesus" is lost to history, the
                  > "historical Jesus" is as close as we are going to get. We get as close as
                  > we can through both a critical analysis of the texts and steeped in the
                  > social, cultural, religious and linguistic anthropology of the late second
                  > temple period. As a result and per exemplum, I do not know if the REAL
                  > Jesus wore sandals. I do know that they were the standard footwear and
                  > some
                  > have been recovered at Qumran and Wadi Muraba'at and the texts tell me he
                  > did a lot of walking. As a result, I think I am very safe in stating,
                  > almost apodictically, Jesus wore sandals.
                  > I don't know what the REAL Jesus wore in addition to the sandals but
                  > standard dress was an inner tunic, a tunic coat (Kitonet), a girdle or
                  > belt
                  > of leather, a mantle that was like a robe, similar to a Gilabiyah and a
                  > headdress not unlike a prayer shawl or tallit. Examples of these pieces of
                  > clothing have been found, some fairly well preserved and I would bet the
                  > mayonnaise farm that is what the historical and the real Jesus wore,
                  > albeit
                  > I cannot tell you about colors. I can tell from the archaeological
                  > evidence
                  > what kind of cups he drank from and ate from and what kind of wine he
                  > drank
                  > and food he ate. We also have a very good idea of infrastructure and the
                  > types of houses he lived in as well as social and family praxis. I can say
                  > with strong conviction that he spoke Aramaic and even know enough of the
                  > idiom to know he didn't say some of the things we think he said.
                  >
                  > I think he really did, honestly and for true, actually heal a lot of
                  > people,
                  > again with good reason rather than "faith."
                  >
                  > All I am saying is that if you look at the whole elephant from all of the
                  > indicators at out disposal, there is much we can say about the only REAL
                  > Jesus we will ever know, the historical Jesus.
                  >
                  > shlama
                  >
                  > Jack
                  >
                  > Jack Kilmon
                  > San Antonio, TX
                  >
                  > --------------------------------------------------
                  > From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...>
                  > Sent: Saturday, January 22, 2011 7:30 AM
                  > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                  >
                  >> Dear Jack,
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> yes it is very cold in DC.....I really hate the winter.....
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> One should avoid statements or "certainties" with regard to claims about
                  >> the "historical" Jesus. I have discovered that all to often people say
                  >> things about the historical jesus (what he did, how he spoke, where he
                  >> went to etc...)that sound as if they were personally present at the
                  >> scenery (no ofense). There really is no straightforward evidence with
                  >> regard to the literacy of Jesus, only possibilities or probabilities.
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I also think - but I might be wrong- that you overlook the very important
                  >> distinction between the real Jesus (whom we do not know and never will)
                  >> and the historical Jesus (the Jesus we recover through scientific
                  >> research).
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> Hellen
                  >
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ________________________________
                  >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  >> [johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] on behalf of Jack Kilmon
                  >> [jkilmon@...]
                  >> Sent: Friday, January 21, 2011 11:36 PM
                  >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> --------------------------------------------------
                  >> From: "Mardaga, Hellen" <MARDAGA@...<mailto:MARDAGA%40cua.edu>>
                  >> Sent: Wednesday, January 19, 2011 12:39 PM
                  >> To:
                  >><johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>>
                  >>
                  >>>
                  >> Subject: RE: [John_Lit] getting on with the business of John
                  >>
                  >>> Dear Mark, Jack, etc….
                  >>>
                  >>> I am surprised to read the following statement:
                  >>> Peter would say to a group of people in Lydda,
                  >>>> Pontus,
                  >>>> Cappadocia, etc... איכא דאן נהוא פגרא תמן נתכנשׁון נשׁרא׃" Yeshua
                  >>>> amar......'aika den d'hawa pagra, thamman yitkanuon nishrea'" Now I am
                  >>>> confident this indeed goes to the lips of the HISTORICAL Jesus because
                  >>>> you
                  >>>> will notice it is a 2-4 beat rhyme. Vintage Jesus-speak. Then Peter, I
                  >>>> am sure, paused while Mark translated the Aramaic to Greek, " ὅπου γὰρ
                  >>>> ἐὰν
                  >>>> ᾖ τὸ πτῶμα ἐκεῖ συναχθήσονται οἱ ἀετοί "
                  >>>> and the crowd nodded to each other as they heard "wherever their is a
                  >>>> carcass, there also will gather the vultures."
                  >>>
                  >>> The 2-4 beat rhyme you are referring to (and I think you have the book
                  >>> “The Poetry of Our Lord” in mind) is a common stylistic feature. I do
                  >>> not
                  >>> see how you can simply “deduct” from this phenomenon that “the
                  >>> historical
                  >>> Jesus” said such a thing. I think you are overlooking some important
                  >>> aspects of rhetoric:
                  >>>
                  >>> - a feature may be common in a book – several books (e.g.
                  >>> parallelism is found both in John and in the Synoptics) but is that
                  >>> necessary a proof that because a word of Jesus is structured as a
                  >>> parallelism he literally “spoke” that way?
                  >>
                  >> Hi Hellen:
                  >>
                  >> Sorry it took me a while. Sometimes recreational computer time comes
                  >> infrequently.
                  >>
                  >> Concentrating on Aramaic reconstructions of first layer sayings and
                  >> aphorisms of Jesus I find the typical orality devices, of course.
                  >> Assonance,
                  >> paronomasia, alliteration rhyme and meter that indicate to me an
                  >> individual
                  >> in a manner that would not occur if the language of delivery would have
                  >> been
                  >> anything other than Aramaic.
                  >>
                  >>> - We do not even clearly know which language Jesus spoke.
                  >>
                  >> Judean Aramaic. To me it is not even debatable anymore. There is a ton of
                  >> evidence in the only real footprints of the historical Jesus we have, his
                  >> words.
                  >>
                  >> Translational Greek is recognizable by the lexical and syntactic
                  >> interference and in this case that interference is Aramaic.
                  >>
                  >>> He could have spoken some Greek, maybe Aramaic, read Hebrew….but that is
                  >>> it. We can only “assume” what he might have said
                  >>
                  >> I am sure he had "get by Greek" having grown up in Galilee surrounded by
                  >> Hellenism and trade. He spoke Aramaic. Those are the only transliterated
                  >> words placed on his lips including the cry from the cross. Whether or not
                  >> he was competent in Hebrew is hard to assess. The reading of the Isaiah
                  >> scroll at the synagogue at Luke 4:21 is special "L" material from the
                  >> last
                  >> decade of the 1st century and almost certainly not genuine to Jesus.
                  >> Otherwise we have no indications he knew, read or spoke Hebrew and we do
                  >> have indications he was familiar with Targums.
                  >>
                  >> Jesus grew up in Palestine (not even assuming the Galilee) in the first
                  >> third of the 1st century. As such, he grew up in an Aramaic speaking
                  >> country
                  >> so it is more than an assumption to me that he spoke Aramaic as his
                  >> mother
                  >> tongue.
                  >>
                  >> Even our Gospel of John has an Aramaic sub-structure, in fact the
                  >> strongest
                  >> of the Gospels.
                  >>
                  >>> - What about the whole notion of orality? Oral tradition?
                  >>> Parallelism, rhyme, repetition, amplification are not only used in
                  >>> written
                  >>> texts but they also serve a listening audience. It could be that Mark
                  >>> composed the words of Jesus (since he is translating them [!] as you
                  >>> suggest) as a 2-4 beath rhyme (!) exactly to serve the listening
                  >>> audience
                  >>> and to help them remember the content of the gospel easier by
                  >>> mnemotechnic
                  >>> features.
                  >>
                  >> That is the most unlikely possibility, IMO, since Mark wrote his Gospel
                  >> in
                  >> his "second language Greek" where the Aramaic mnemonic apparati would be
                  >> lost just as was idiom in many cases. They do not appear until the
                  >> Aramaic
                  >> is reconstructed. In the cry from the cross, first
                  >> penned...er...reeded..by
                  >> Mark from his notebook, he chose to preserve it as it was spoken and
                  >> there
                  >> is no better indication of Judean Aramaic.
                  >>
                  >> The "cry from the cross" bothers some people and there are apologists
                  >> from
                  >> Syriac churches (Jesus did not speak Syriac) who manufacture all forms of
                  >> creative "translations." The cry from the cross is clear Aramaic and
                  >> definitively "My God, My God, why have you forsaken me?"
                  >>
                  >> I think Mark was correct in his transliteration since the Western Aramaic
                  >> (Judean) would have a qamets qatan instead of qamets gadhol for the lamed
                  >> in
                  >> alaha. Easterm (Syriac) would be alef (pattah)-lamed (qamets gadhol)-heh
                  >> (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLAhy. Western (Judean) would be alef-lamed
                  >> (qamets qatan)-heh (hiriq qatan)-yod, hence aLOhy, hence Mark's
                  >> transliteration as ELWI Ελωι ελωι λαμμᾶ σαβαχθανι . Judean Aramaic
                  >> aLOhy, aLOhy LAma shevawqTAny?
                  >>
                  >> "God of me, God of me, why have forsaken you me?"
                  >>
                  >> Some say there a problem with the absence of a smooth breathing for the
                  >> transliterated ELWI? I don't think so. There was no such thing in the
                  >> first century and the original Markan autograph would have had an uncial
                  >> ELWI.
                  >>
                  >> In Aramaic speaking Palestine of the 1st century, Jesus would not have
                  >> heard
                  >> Psalm 22 in Hebrew. He would have heard it from the synagogue lector
                  >> reading
                  >> the Aramaic Targum of Psalm 22.
                  >> אלהי אלהי מטול מה שׁבקתני
                  >>
                  >> Just one of hundreds of indicators that I have noticed is the rendering
                  >> of
                  >> the name of Jesus' buddy אֶלְעָזָר in Hebrew el'azar. It has come down to
                  >> us from Jesus' own Galilean pronunciation as l'azar with the dropped
                  >> aleph
                  >> and transliterated into Greek as Λάζαρος and in the Vulgate as Lazarus.
                  >>
                  >> If Jeremias, Black, Fitzmyer and Casey are not compelling on this issue,
                  >> then no one can be, certainly not a mere amateur such as myself.
                  >>
                  >> Is it cold in DC?
                  >>
                  >> Regards,
                  >>
                  >> Jack
                  >>
                  >> Jack Kilmon
                  >> San Antonio, TX
                  >>
                  >>>
                  >>> Dr. Hellen Mardaga
                  >>> Assistant Professor of New Testament
                  >>> The Catholic University of America
                  >>> Caldwel Hall 419
                  >>> 620 Michigan Av.
                  >>> 20064 Washington DC
                  >>> 202-319-6885
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
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                  >>
                  >
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