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Re: [John_Lit] Water and Blood in 1 John 5:6

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  • Matthew Miller
    Matt You said ... John s baptism is not from above if you accept the implicit allusion to Genesis 1:6-8. The Holy Spirit represents water from above and
    Message 1 of 33 , Aug 17, 2010
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      You said

      > But this still differentiates the Holy Spirit
      > (the "water from above") from the Baptist's "water" (= the Law and the
      > Prophets,
      > which is really also from above, since the Father is the One who acts
      > through
      > them).
      John's baptism is not from above if you accept the implicit allusion to
      Genesis 1:6-8. The Holy Spirit represents water from above and John's
      baptism represents water below.

      > I still do not see how
      > you are connecting the Holy Spirit to "water" in Jn 2 except that the
      > "water"
      > was transformed into "wine"
      Please read John 2:9. What does the headwaiter taste? He tastes "Water...
      which had become wine." John doesn't actively describe the water's
      transformation instead he modifies the noun 'water' with the description
      "which had become wine." This suggests to me that wine is apart of John's
      water motif. If you believe wine equals the Holy Spirit and you believe
      living water equals the Holy Spirit, why don't you see the strong potential
      for a correlation between these two symbols?

      > Thirdly, in Jn 3, you again want to identify "water" with the Holy Spirit
      > since
      > the preposition that governs both "water and the Spirit" seems, in your
      > view, to
      > make these two identical.
      It's not simply my view and not simply because the preposition governs both
      "water and the Spirit." 1) It's held by a prominent NT scholar, D.A.
      Carson. 2) "born of water and Spirit" in 3:5 is a restatement of "born
      again" in 3:3 which also suggests its one birth and not two. 3) Again
      translates the Greek word anothen which means "from above." Water from
      above is implicitly how John describes the Holy Spirit in John 1. 4) it
      makes sense in light of the totality of John's water motif.

      Matthew Miller

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Matthew Miller
      ... Essentially.
      Message 33 of 33 , Aug 20, 2010
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        > I believe that I understand your argument: You want to interpret the first thing
        > in the comparison (water) in a literal fashion- as normal earthly "water" that
        > can only do what it was meant to do in whatever context it is found within John,
        > and then you want to interpret the second thing being compared/contrasted as
        > referring to something "symbolic"- something "more" than what the first thing
        > can do that is being compared/contrasted. Thus your "earthly" and "heavenly"
        > descriptions. Am I correct?

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