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Re: [John_Lit] John and Paul

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  • Matthew Miller
    I find Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles are particularly striking in their comparisons to John and it s theology. One can instantly think of the
    Message 1 of 52 , Aug 13, 2010
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      I find Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles are particularly
      striking in their comparisons to John and it's theology. One can instantly
      think of the way in which John, Ephesians and Colossians each describe
      Christ's role in creation. But there are other parallels as well. For
      instance:

      Ephesians 4:8-9
      "Therefore it says, When he ascended on high, he led captive, a host of
      captives, and He gave gifts to men." Now this expression, "He ascended,"
      what does it mean except that He also descended into the lower parts of the
      earth?

      John 3:13
      "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son
      of Man."

      While the later verse can also be an allusion to Proverbs 30:4, there is a
      similarity between Ephesians 4:9 and John 3:13 which is unique in the New
      Testament.

      Again this isn't the only comparison one could find within these letters.
      While some of these parallels could simply be chalked up to a common first
      century mileu, It's certainly interesting that tradition places John within
      this city, giving him at least access to this particular letter.

      Matthew Miller
      Canby Bible College
      logosmadeflesh@...


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Butler
      Matthew,      I m enjoying catching up on this string of e-mail exchanges in which you are engaged.  You are asking some interesting questions about the
      Message 52 of 52 , Aug 25, 2010
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        Matthew,
             I'm enjoying catching up on this string of e-mail exchanges in which you
        are engaged.  You are asking some interesting questions about the Fourth Gospel,
        and you have some interesting theories about how to answer those questions.  I
        believe that such an approach is what gives life to the serious study of the
        Bible and in particular to the study of the Fourth Gospel.
              I subscribe to the theory that may offer an explanation for
        the similarities between the writings of Paul, the synoptic Gospels and the
        Fourth Gospel.  That theory is that a community of scholars formed during the
        first century soon after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.  These world
        class scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures, especially of the Torah, were also
        Jewish Christians.   I suspect that such a community of scholars was busily at
        work recording the passion narrative and then building a larger narrative that
        was intended to maintain all of the wisdom of the more ancient Scriptures, while
        recounting the lessons and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth.   Other scholars who
        visited that community engaged in discussion about their work as the community
        members struggled to produce a "Christian" Torah for use alongside
        the Septuagint source for the Scriptures they used regularly for worship.  These
        discussions among scholars could well have influenced the thinking both of the
        residential scholars and those who visited the community, thus ideas, language,
        use of sacred symbols that were being discussed may have appeared in documents
        that were "published" long before the "finished" Gospel (even the earliest
        versions of it) was "published."
              I think this theory or something like it could be used to explain the
        similarities in the use of symbolic language, the depth of
        theological reflection and even terms or phrases that appear in documents
        that appear to modern scholars to have come from different eras in history
        and/or different areas of the known world.
         
        Tom Butler





        ________________________________
        From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 8:04:24 AM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John and Paul

         
        I find Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles are particularly
        striking in their comparisons to John and it's theology. One can instantly
        think of the way in which John, Ephesians and Colossians each describe
        Christ's role in creation. But there are other parallels as well. For
        instance:

        Ephesians 4:8-9
        "Therefore it says, When he ascended on high, he led captive, a host of
        captives, and He gave gifts to men." Now this expression, "He ascended,"
        what does it mean except that He also descended into the lower parts of the
        earth?

        John 3:13
        "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son
        of Man."

        While the later verse can also be an allusion to Proverbs 30:4, there is a
        similarity between Ephesians 4:9 and John 3:13 which is unique in the New
        Testament.

        Again this isn't the only comparison one could find within these letters.
        While some of these parallels could simply be chalked up to a common first
        century mileu, It's certainly interesting that tradition places John within
        this city, giving him at least access to this particular letter.

        Matthew Miller
        Canby Bible College
        logosmadeflesh@...

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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