[John_Lit] Re: The Synoptic Problem: A Johannine Solution
- Sorry, Jack, I responded to your previous post without seeing this one. Thank you for the clarification re "on Jesus' bosom." Do you have citations where the Aramaic equivalent of "kolpon" (I assume chaik or chaina) is used to signify sitting at the place of honor, and not literally lap or bosom?
You'll have a hard time persuading a lot of people that Jn. 21 was originally the ending of Mark. In that context, the unnamed BD would come out of nowhere. Granted that John bar Z could have been "beloved," in Mark he and James are always a pair, while Jn.21 mentions that the sons of Zebedee were there, then gives prominence to the BD. While Nathanael could also have had the patronymic Bartholemew (Bar-Tolmai), it's mentioned that he comes from Cana, which has no significance in Mark. And the language and pace are completely different. But what do I know?
--- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@...> wrote:
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "deanf4545" <decanus84@...>
> To: <email@example.com>
> Sent: Thursday, April 23, 2009 10:36 PM
> Subject: [John_Lit] Re: The Synoptic Problem: A Johannine Solution
> > --- In firstname.lastname@example.org, "Jack Kilmon" <jkilmon@>
> > wrote:
> >> I have just ordered Bauckham from Amazon but I just wrote my position
> >> regarding the BD in my previous post.
> > He wrote another book on the Beloved Disciple which I thought made a good
> > case for the view that Papias and Polycrates did not identify John the
> > Beloved with the son of Zebedee.
> Yohanan bar Zebedy was the "John" Jesus knew. He was not only a disciple
> but also a cousin and apparently the youngest of the disciples...I would
> guess/speculate around 20 years old. Cousins in that culture were almost
> the same as brothers and Yohanan would likely have been doted on by the
> BarYahosef family as the youngest son of Aunt Shalomzion/Salome.
> The "disciple Jesus loved" would have been one of the 12...not Lazarus, not
> Mary Magdalene. The BD had to be either Simon Peter, Thomas, Nathanael
> (Bartholomew), James, the Greater or John. There are also two others not
> named. Seven of the disciples (5 named) mentioned in John 21:2, one of whom
> is the BD mentioned in 21:7. My position is that this information came from
> Peter and was told to, and recorded by, Mark and John 21 was originally the
> ending of Mark.
> John 13:23 records "There was reclining on Jesus' breast one of his
> disciples, whom Jesus loved." Keep in mind, the table was a treclinium and
> everyone was reclining so this would have been very awkward if it meant the
> BD was literaly lying against Jesus breast. This Aramaic idiom meant that
> the BD was reclining on Jesus right, a place of importance in that culture.
> Remembering that Mark 10:35-37 reports the Zebedee boys askingJesus for the
> right and left hand positions by him, in the Ancient Middle East that meant
> the two highest "deputies" with the right hand reserved by kings for viziers
> and co-regents and the next in power on the left. Jesus does not refuse
> them but asks them, as acondition, if they would be prepared to "drink the
> cup that I drink" (to be killed) and then (10:39) confirms that they both
> would be martyred. Big Jake was killed in 43 CE and John appears under the
> evidence of Josephus to have died with Jesus' brother James (Jake the Just)
> in 62 CE.
> That narrows the BD down to either Ya'qub bar Zebedy or Yohanan bar Zebedy
> and my shekels are on it being Jesus' "baby cousin" Johnny.
> Since John the Elder overwrote John Zebedee's small Aramaic gospel with his
> large Greek gospel, the Ephesus community was more than glad to associate
> John the Elder with the BD thereby giving themselves a special status in
> their claimed apostolic authortity. This would include Papias and Polycarp
> as first generation disciples of John the Elder and second generation
> Irenaeus and Polycrates, who inherited Papias claim.
> This is a summary of my position and like all theories should be accepted as
> speculative but I think good circumstantial evidence supports it.
> Jack Kilmon
> San Antonio, TX