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RE: [John_Lit] John and Paul

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    Many thanks...but anything else? Pete ________________________________ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Mark Goodacre Sent: Wed
    Message 1 of 52 , Apr 22, 2009
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      Many thanks...but anything else?



      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Mark Goodacre
      Sent: Wed 22/04/2009 15:33
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John and Paul

      The piece is in question is:

      Michael Goulder, "An Old Friend Incognito", _Scottish Journal of
      Theology_ 45 (1992), pp. 487-513

      It is an interesting but I think implausible article.

      All best

      2009/4/22 Paul Anderson <panderso@... <mailto:panderso%40georgefox.edu> >:
      > Thanks, Pete, I heard Michael Goulder present a paper at the 1987 SNTS
      > meetings in Goettingen on the Fourth Evangelist as "Paul Incognito," and I
      > think it was also published eventually. I don't concur with his inference
      > that Paul was the Beloved Disciple, but the connections he drew were
      > interesting.
      > All the best for your sleuthing!
      > Paul Anderson
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com> on behalf of PHILLIPS P.M.
      > Sent: Tue 4/21/2009 11:33 PM
      > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [John_Lit] John and Paul
      > Are people aware of major works discussing interraction between the
      > Johsnnine and Pauline literature? I know the moody smith monograph but
      > this does John in one section and Paul in another. Done some searches
      > at Durham central library and my college one and on the Internet
      > e.g.on Felix Justs site but can't find much at all.
      > Pete
      > Peter Phillips
      > Director of Research
      > Centre for Biblical Literacy
      > At Johns College, Durham University
      > ------------------------------------
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      Mark Goodacre Goodacre@... <mailto:Goodacre%40duke.edu>
      Associate Professor
      Duke University
      Department of Religion
      Gray Building / Box 90964
      Durham, NC 27708-0964 USA
      Phone: 919-660-3503 Fax: 919-660-3530

      http://www.markgoodacre.org <http://www.markgoodacre.org/>

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Butler
      Matthew,      I m enjoying catching up on this string of e-mail exchanges in which you are engaged.  You are asking some interesting questions about the
      Message 52 of 52 , Aug 25, 2010
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             I'm enjoying catching up on this string of e-mail exchanges in which you
        are engaged.  You are asking some interesting questions about the Fourth Gospel,
        and you have some interesting theories about how to answer those questions.  I
        believe that such an approach is what gives life to the serious study of the
        Bible and in particular to the study of the Fourth Gospel.
              I subscribe to the theory that may offer an explanation for
        the similarities between the writings of Paul, the synoptic Gospels and the
        Fourth Gospel.  That theory is that a community of scholars formed during the
        first century soon after the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus.  These world
        class scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures, especially of the Torah, were also
        Jewish Christians.   I suspect that such a community of scholars was busily at
        work recording the passion narrative and then building a larger narrative that
        was intended to maintain all of the wisdom of the more ancient Scriptures, while
        recounting the lessons and ministry of Jesus of Nazareth.   Other scholars who
        visited that community engaged in discussion about their work as the community
        members struggled to produce a "Christian" Torah for use alongside
        the Septuagint source for the Scriptures they used regularly for worship.  These
        discussions among scholars could well have influenced the thinking both of the
        residential scholars and those who visited the community, thus ideas, language,
        use of sacred symbols that were being discussed may have appeared in documents
        that were "published" long before the "finished" Gospel (even the earliest
        versions of it) was "published."
              I think this theory or something like it could be used to explain the
        similarities in the use of symbolic language, the depth of
        theological reflection and even terms or phrases that appear in documents
        that appear to modern scholars to have come from different eras in history
        and/or different areas of the known world.
        Tom Butler

        From: Matthew Miller <logosmadeflesh@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Fri, August 13, 2010 8:04:24 AM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] John and Paul

        I find Ephesians and the rest of the prison epistles are particularly
        striking in their comparisons to John and it's theology. One can instantly
        think of the way in which John, Ephesians and Colossians each describe
        Christ's role in creation. But there are other parallels as well. For

        Ephesians 4:8-9
        "Therefore it says, When he ascended on high, he led captive, a host of
        captives, and He gave gifts to men." Now this expression, "He ascended,"
        what does it mean except that He also descended into the lower parts of the

        John 3:13
        "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son
        of Man."

        While the later verse can also be an allusion to Proverbs 30:4, there is a
        similarity between Ephesians 4:9 and John 3:13 which is unique in the New

        Again this isn't the only comparison one could find within these letters.
        While some of these parallels could simply be chalked up to a common first
        century mileu, It's certainly interesting that tradition places John within
        this city, giving him at least access to this particular letter.

        Matthew Miller
        Canby Bible College

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