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RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

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  • Matson, Mark (Academic)
    John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
    Message 1 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
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      John:

      I also would like a copy of your article.

      Mark A. Matson
      Academic Dean
      Milligan College
      http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

      ________________________________

      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
      Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




      Hi John,

      I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
      your paper.

      Many thanks,

      Danny McGrady


      In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
      writes:

      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
      > Targums of the Pentateuch.






      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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    • PHILLIPS P.M.
      Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
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        Dear Dan

        Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
        from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
        Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
        documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
        the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
        this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
        to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
        temple Judaism.

        Pete

        Pete Phillips
        Director of Research
        Centre for Biblical Literacy
        St John's College, Durham, UK

        ________________________________

        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
        Garlington
        Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





        Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

        Don G.

        --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
        <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
        <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
        From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
        <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
        Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

        Hi John,

        I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
        of

        your paper.

        Many thanks,

        Danny McGrady

        In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
        com

        writes:

        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
        Targum

        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
        publishing

        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

        > Targums of the Pentateuch.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


          > Dear Dan
          >
          > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
          > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
          > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
          > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
          > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
          > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
          > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
          > temple Judaism.
          >
          > Pete
          >
          > Pete Phillips
          > Director of Research
          > Centre for Biblical Literacy
          > St John's College, Durham, UK


          Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
          would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
          Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
          Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
          an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
          phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
          your paper on the prologue.

          Jack


          Jack Kilmon
          San Antonio, TX
        • deanf4545
          I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
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          • John Ronning
            Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
            Message 5 of 28 , May 25, 2009
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              Greetings Dean,

              Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

              Regards,

              John Ronning




              ________________________________
              From: dean198 <dean198@...>
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
              Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





              Dear John,
              I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
              Thanks
              Dean
              BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
              Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

              --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings all,
              >
              > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
              > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
              > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
              > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
              > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
              > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
              > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
              > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
              > OT).
              >
              > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
              > Targums of the Pentateuch.
              >
              > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
              > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
              > illuminating John. Some random examples:
              >
              > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
              > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
              > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
              > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
              > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
              > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
              > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
              > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
              > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
              > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
              > delivers from my hand."
              >
              > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
              > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
              > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
              > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
              > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
              > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
              > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
              > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
              > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
              >
              > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
              > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
              > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
              > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
              > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
              > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
              > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
              > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
              > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
              >
              > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
              > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
              > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
              > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
              > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
              > who believed in his name).
              >
              > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
              > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
              > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
              > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
              > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
              > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
              > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
              > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
              > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
              > the upper room as a new Sinai).
              >
              > Some food for thought, I trust.
              >
              > John Ronning
              > jronning@...
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • John Ronning
              Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
              Message 6 of 28 , May 25, 2009
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                Pete,

                Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                Briefly to your other q's:
                The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                Regards,

                John Ronning




                ________________________________
                From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                Dear Dan

                Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                temple Judaism.

                Pete

                Pete Phillips
                Director of Research
                Centre for Biblical Literacy
                St John's College, Durham, UK

                ____________ _________ _________ __

                From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                Garlington
                Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                Don G.

                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                Hi John,

                I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                of

                your paper.

                Many thanks,

                Danny McGrady

                In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                com

                writes:

                Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                Targum

                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                publishing

                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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