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Re: [John_Lit] bibliographical references: the historical unreliability on the sayings of Jesus in GJohn

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  • bill ace
    Dear Jeffrey,      There s a book I know called Challenging Perspectives on the Gospel of John, edited by John Lierman that came out in 2006; it s full
    Message 1 of 8 , Jan 22, 2009
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      Dear Jeffrey,

      ���� There's a book I know called "Challenging Perspectives on the Gospel of John," edited by John Lierman that came out in 2006; it's full of shorter writings like �The Johannine Sayings of Jesus and the Question of
      Authenticity" by Peter W. Ensor.
      You can sample it on Google Books!

      I for one, though, don't think the Synoptic Jesus is really all that different from the Johannine rendition, except that his method of speach certainly varies.

      The problem for establishing Johannine sayings as 'authentic' stems from John's "aloneness": we don't have a Q or Markan redaction or synoptic overlap, except with a few acts of Jesus.
      Yet, the unreliability of John's depiction of Jesus has been overstated in the past, and I think John will soon have his revenge.

      Martin C. Arno, UCSB 2008





















      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
      ... Thanks for this. But it looks like the page on which one might find a list of all those who have maintained the position I m seeking bibliographical
      Message 2 of 8 , Jan 22, 2009
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        bill ace wrote:
        > Dear Jeffrey,
        >
        > There's a book I know called "Challenging Perspectives on the Gospel of John," edited by John Lierman that came out in 2006; it's full of shorter writings like “The Johannine Sayings of Jesus and the Question of
        > Authenticity" by Peter W. Ensor.
        > You can sample it on Google Books!
        >
        Thanks for this. But it looks like the page on which one might find a
        list of all those who have maintained the position I'm seeking
        bibliographical references for are missing from the Google books preview
        of this article!

        Can anyone provide me with a scan of p.15 ?

        Jeffrey

        --
        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
        Chicago, Illinois
        e-mail jgibson000@...
      • Elizabeth Danna
        ... Hi Jeffrey; FWIW I can give you two scholars who argue for the historical reliability of John; if I understand you correctly, you are looking to find who
        Message 3 of 8 , Jan 24, 2009
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          On Thu 22/01/09 12:05 PM , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" jgibson000@... sent:
          > Can someone here point me to one or two books or articles which could be used in a footnote to buttress the claim that it is >usually maintained by NT/Historical Jesus Scholars that the sayings of Jesus in the Gospel of John have less of a claim to >representing what the HJ actually said than those we find in Matthew Mark and Luke?
          Hi Jeffrey;
          FWIW I can give you two scholars who argue for the historical reliability of John; if I understand you correctly, you are looking to find who holds the position they refute.

          Craig L. Blomberg, _The Historical Reliability of John's Gospel_, Downer's Gorve IL: IVP, 2001
          C.H. Dodd, _Historical Tradition in the Fourth Gospel_, Cambridge: CUP, 1963

          Dodd and Blomberg should have citiations. Hope this is of some help.
          Elizabeth Danna
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          ... Thanks, Dana. Actually I m looking for one or two representative voices of the position that the sayings material in John is not to be taken as
          Message 4 of 8 , Jan 24, 2009
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            Elizabeth Danna wrote:
            > On Thu 22/01/09 12:05 PM , "Jeffrey B. Gibson" jgibson000@... sent:
            >
            >> Can someone here point me to one or two books or articles which could be used in a footnote to buttress the claim that it is >usually maintained by NT/Historical Jesus Scholars that the sayings of Jesus in the Gospel of John have less of a claim to >representing what the HJ actually said than those we find in Matthew Mark and Luke?
            >>
            > Hi Jeffrey;
            > FWIW I can give you two scholars who argue for the historical reliability of John; if I understand you correctly, you are looking to find who holds the position they refute.
            >
            Thanks, Dana. Actually I'm looking for one or two representative voices
            of the position that the sayings material in John is not to be taken as
            historically reliable, or at least as less so than what we find in the
            Synoptics.

            In other words, it's just the opposite of what you are saying. And I'm
            looking for voices that speak specifically to the issue of the sayings
            material, NOT the narrative material or the chronological frame of John.

            Jeffrey

            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Elizabeth Danna
            ... Sorry, Jeffrey, I guess I didn t make myself clear. I understand that Dodd and Blomberg hold a position opposite to the one you re looking to support.
            Message 5 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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              > In other words, it's just the opposite of what you are saying. And I'm looking for voices that speak specifically to the issue >of the sayings material, NOT the narrative material or the chronological frame of John.

              Sorry, Jeffrey, I guess I didn't make myself clear. I understand that Dodd and Blomberg hold a position opposite to the one you're looking to support. But in doing so they cite scholars who hold a view opposed to their own - those are the ones you're looking for. And while I don't have access to Dodd's book, IIRC he deals extensively with the sayings material.
              Elizabeth
            • Paul Anderson
              Thanks, Jeffrey, the most extensive analysis of the literature regarding historical problems with John s presentation of Jesus that I am aware of is covered in
              Message 6 of 8 , Jan 25, 2009
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                Thanks, Jeffrey, the most extensive analysis of the literature regarding historical problems with John's presentation of Jesus that I am aware of is covered in the first half of John, Jesus, and History, Vol. 1 (SBL Press, 2007). Strengths and weaknesses of various views are assessed for a sustained critical engagement. Here's the table of contents, and most of the major books and essays on the subject are covered in the five literature reviews, and those sources are listed in the bibliography. In the second introductory essay I cover analytically six reasons why John's historicity is questioned and six reasons why John has been considered off limits for Jesus studies.

                I hope that helps.

                Paul Anderson


                John, Jesus, and History; Vol. 1, Critical Appraisals of Critical Views

                Contents:

                Prologue: Critical Views of John, Jesus, and History -- Paul N. Anderson.......1

                Part 1: Introductory Matters

                Introduction: The John, Jesus, and History Project -- Tom Thatcher.............9
                Why This Study Is Needed, and Why It Is Needed Now -- Paul N. Anderson........13

                Part 2: Reviews of the Literature: How Did John Become the “Spiritual” Gospel?

                The Dehistoricizing of the Gospel of John -- Robert Kysar.....................75
                The “Spiritual Gospel”: How John the Theologian Writes History -- Marianne Meye Thompson...103
                The De-Johannification of Jesus: The Revisionist Contribution of Some Nineteenth-Century German Scholarship -- Jack Verheyden........................................ 109
                The De-Johannification of Jesus: The Twentieth Century and Beyond -- Mark Allan Powell.... 121
                The Challenge of the Balkanization of Johannine Studies -- D. A. Carson..... 133

                Part 3: Disciplinary Approaches to the Issues: Grinding New Lenses and Gaining New Insights

                John: A Source for Jesus Research? -- D. Moody Smith........................ 165

                “We Know That His Testimony Is True”: Johannine Truth Claims and Historicity -- Andrew T. Lincoln.... 179
                New Historicism and the Historical Jesus in John: Friends or Foes? -- Colleen M. Conway... 199
                John’s Literary Unity and the Problem of Historicity -- Gilbert Van Belle with Sydney Palmer... 217
                Memory Holds the Key: The Transformation of Memory in the Interface of History and Theology in John -- John Painter........ 229

                Part 4: Ways Forward: A Case Study

                The Historical Jesus, the Scene in the Temple, and the Gospel of John -- Paula Fredriksen.... 249
                On Deal-Breakers and Disturbances -- Mark Allan Powell...................... 277

                Part 5: Concluding Matters
                Getting a “Sense of the Meeting”: Assessments and Convergences -- Paul N. Anderson... 285
                Epilogue: Where Do We Go from Here? -- Felix Just, S.J...................... 291
                Bibliography...................................... 295

                -----Original Message-----
                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Jeffrey B. Gibson
                Sent: Thu 1/22/2009 9:05 AM
                To: John-Lit
                Subject: [John_Lit] bibliographical references: the historical unreliability on the sayings of Jesus in GJohn

                Can someone here point me to one or two books or articles which could be
                used in a footnote to buttress the claim that it is usually maintained
                by NT/Historical Jesus Scholars that the sayings of Jesus in the Gospel
                of John have less of a claim to representing what the HJ actually said
                than those we find in Matthew Mark and Luke?

                With thanks in advance,

                Jeffrey

                --
                Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                Chicago, Illinois
                e-mail jgibson000@...


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