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'The Word was toward God' question

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  • Marty
    Dear fellows, This may sound very elementary, but I ve never quite understood the rendering of pros at the beginning of John as with. I ve never read
    Message 1 of 15 , Dec 22, 2008
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      Dear fellows,

      This may sound very elementary, but I've never quite understood
      the rendering of 'pros' at the beginning of John as 'with.' I've never
      read 'pros' translated as 'with' anywhere but this particular passage.

      Could someone please explain this to me? Does the rendering of 'pros'
      as 'toward,' 'upon' or anything else alter the meaning of the text?

      Thank you.
    • Gary
      With is within the semantic range of pros. You can find other places where pros is translated as with in standared ETs. Yesterday I ran across an example
      Message 2 of 15 , Dec 23, 2008
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        "With" is within the semantic range of pros. You can find other places
        where pros is translated as "with" in standared ETs. Yesterday I ran
        across an example in Gal 1:18, "I went up to Jerusalem to become
        acquainted with Kephas, and I remained with (pros) him 15 days."

        Several years ago I was wondering if there was any significance to its
        use in Jn 1:1, and did a quick survey of uses of pros in the LXX.
        Although I did not do a complete study, I found several examples where
        a connecting verb (such as eimi) was used with pros, and it usually
        meant "with" in those situations.
      • Matson, Mark (Academic)
        Marty: This is complex, and might better be addressed on the Biblical Greek list. But here goes an attempt. First of all, most prepositions are remarkably
        Message 3 of 15 , Dec 23, 2008
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          Marty:

          This is complex, and might better be addressed on the Biblical Greek list. But here goes an attempt.

          First of all, most prepositions are remarkably complex. For instance, I recommend you spend about twenty minutes working throught he entry in LSJ (see the LSJ entry on Perseus here: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/cgi-bin/ptext?doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057%3Aentry%3D%2388444)

          So the basic entry begins with:
          A. on the side of, in the direction of, hence c. gen., dat., and acc., from, at, to:

          But notice some interesting features:

          WITH GEN., pros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pro%2Fs&bytepos=137352974&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> refers to that from which something comes.

          and goes on to interpret this in terms of place (one possibility, that this passage in John refers to God as in a location or source, where Jesus is to be located as coming from), so:

          before, in presence of, marturoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ma%2Frturoi&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> estôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29%2Fstwn&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> theôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qew%3Dn&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> makarôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=maka%2Frwn&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> thnêtôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qnhtw%3Dn&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> anthrôpôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29nqrw%2Fpwn&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Il.1.339 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c001%3a1%3a339&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; oud' <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ou%29d%27&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> epiorkêsô <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29piorkh%2Fsw&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. daimonos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dai%2Fmonos&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> 19.188 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c001%3a19%3a188&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; poitou Apollônos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2A%29apo%2Fllwnos&bytepos=137359038&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . [p. 1497] hupischomai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=u%28pi%2Fsxomai&bytepos=137359766&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> prob. in IG22.1126.7 (Amphict. Delph., iv B. C.); huposchomenous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=u%28posxome%2Fnous&bytepos=137359766&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> pros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pro%2Fs&bytepos=137359766&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tou <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%3D&bytepos=137359766&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Dios <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2Adio%2Fs&bytepos=137359766&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ib.1237.16: hence,

          b. in the eyes of, adikon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29%2Fdikon&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ouden <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ou%29de%2Fn&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> oute <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ou%29%2Fte&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. theôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qew%3Dn&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> oute <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ou%29%2Fte&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. anthrôpôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29nqrw%2Fpwn&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Th.1.71 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a1%3a71&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , cf. X.An.1.6.6 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0032%2c006%3a1%3a6%3a6&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , etc.; hosios <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28%2Fsios&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. theôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qew%3Dn&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Lex ap.And.1.97 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0027%2c001%3a1%3a97&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; kateipatô <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kateipa%2Ftw&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . hagnôs <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%28gnw%3Ds&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tou <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%3D&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> theou <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qeou%3D&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> if he wishes to be pure in the sight of the god, SIG986.9, cf. 17 (Chios <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Chios&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman> , v/iv B. C.); ho <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> gar <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ga%2Fr&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kairos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kairo%2Fs&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. anthrôpôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29nqrw%2Fpwn&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> brachu <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=braxu%2F&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> metron <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=me%2Ftron&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> echei <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29%2Fxei&bytepos=137360253&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Pi.P.4.286 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0033%2c002%3a4%3a286&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .

          and so a closely related idea :

          of origin or descent, from, on the side of, genos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ge%2Fnos&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ex <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29c&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Halikarnêssou <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2A%28alikarnhssou%3D&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ta <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ta%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. patros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=patro%2Fs&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> by the father's side, Hdt.7.99 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0016%2c001%3a7%3a99&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; Athênaion <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2A%29aqhnai%3Don&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ta <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ta%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. patros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=patro%2Fs&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ta <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ta%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. mêtros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=mhtro%2Fs&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> D.57.17 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c057%3a17&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , cf. Isoc.3.42 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0010%2c014%3a42&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , SIG1015.7 (Halic.); progonoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pro%2Fgonoi&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ê <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. andrôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29ndrw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ê <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> gunaikôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=gunaikw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> in the male or female line, Pl.Tht.173d <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0059%2c006%3a173d&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; ho <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> patêr <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=path%2Fr&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. men <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=me%2Fn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> andrôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29ndrw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ên <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Eupatridôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2Aeu%29patridw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Isoc.16.25 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0010%2c004%3a25&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; hoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=oi%28&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> sungeneis <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=suggenei%3Ds&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tou <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%3D&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> patros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=patro%2Fs&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. andrôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29ndrw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=4&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. gunaikôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=gunaikw%3Dn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> D.57.23 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c057%3a23&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; hoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=oi%28&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. haimatos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ai%28%2Fmatos&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> blood-relations, S.Aj.1305 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0011%2c003%3a1305&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; ê <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> philôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fi%2Flwn&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tis <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tis&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ê <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%2F&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=4&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. haimatos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ai%28%2Fmatos&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> phusin <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=fu%2Fsin&bytepos=137366941&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Id.El.1125 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0011%2c005%3a1125&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .

          I would suggest that pros always has this concept, and we are seeing the variation inherent concept being played out in a variety of ways, dependent to a great extent by the case that controls it.

          So notice, then, that this allows also a closely related concept:

          III. of dependence or close connection: hence,

          1. dependent on one, under one's protection, p. Dios <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2Adio%2Fs&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> eisi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29si&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> xeinoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=cei%3Dnoi&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ptôchoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ptwxoi%2F&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Od.6.207 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c002%3a6%3a207&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ,14.57 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c002%3a14%3a57&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; dikaspoloi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dikaspo%2Floi&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> , hoi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=oi%28%2F&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> themistas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qe%2Fmistas&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. Dios <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2Adio%2Fs&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> eiruatai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29ru%2Fatai&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> by commission from him, Il.1.239 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c001%3a1%3a239&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. allês <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29%2Fllhs&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> histon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=i%28sto%2Fn&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> huphainois <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=u%28fai%2Fnois&bytepos=137381125&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> at the bidding of another, 6.456 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c001%3a6%3a456&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .

          2. on one's side, in one's favour, Hdt.1.75 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0016%2c001%3a1%3a75&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ,124 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0016%2c001%3a124&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , S.OT1434 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0011%2c004%3a1434&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , Tr.479 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0011%2c001%3a479&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , etc.; p. tôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw%3Dn&bytepos=137382326&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> echontôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29xo%2Fntwn&bytepos=137382326&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . ton <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=to%2Fn&bytepos=137382326&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> nomon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=no%2Fmon&bytepos=137382326&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tithês <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ti%2Fqhs&bytepos=137382326&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> E.Alc. 57 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0006%2c002%3a57&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .
          LSJ goes on.. With the Dative it expresses proximity:

          2. before, in the presence of, p. tois <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=toi%3Ds&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> thesmothetais <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=qesmoqe%2Ftais&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> , p. tôi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw%3D%7C&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> diaitêtêi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=diaithth%3D%7C&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> legein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=le%2Fgein&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> , D. 20.98 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c020%3a98&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ,39.22 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c039%3a22&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; hosa <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28%2Fsa&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tois <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=toi%3Ds&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kritais <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kritai%3Ds&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> gegonen <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ge%2Fgonen&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Id.21.18 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c021%3a18&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. diaitêtêi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=diaithth%3D%7C&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> pheugein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=feu%2Fgein&bytepos=137398066&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Id.22.28 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c022%3a28&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .
          Now it is true G.John does not use the dative here, but there is often a blurring across cases. The "strict" difference often softens in practice... and that may be what we have here.

          And while the basic sense of the accusative is "toward" or "movement in a direction", this works out in an interesting way:

          6. of various kinds of intercourse or reciprocal action, p . . . Diomêdea <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=%2Adiomh%2Fdea&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> teuche' <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=teu%2Fxe%27&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ameiben <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29%2Fmeiben&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> changed arms with Diomedes <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Diomedes&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman> , Il.6.235 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0012%2c001%3a6%3a235&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; hosa <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28%2Fsa&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . xumbolaia <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=cumbo%2Flaia&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . ên <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%3Dn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tois <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=toi%3Ds&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> idiôtais <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=i%29diw%2Ftais&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> idiôtas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=i%29diw%2Ftas&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> ê <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> idiôtêi <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=i%29diw%2Fth%7C&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. to <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=to%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> koinon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=koino%2Fn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> IG12.116.19 ; spondas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=sponda%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> , sunthêkas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=sunqh%2Fkas&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> poieisthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=poiei%3Dsqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tina <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> , Th.4.15 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a4%3a15&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , Plb.1.17.6 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0543%2c001%3a1%3a17%3a6&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; xunchôrein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=cugxwrei%3Dn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Th.2.59 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a2%3a59&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; gignetai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=gi%2Fgnetai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> homologia <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=o%28mologi%2Fa&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Id.7.82 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a7%3a82&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , cf. Hdt. 1.61 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0016%2c001%3a1%3a61&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> xummachian <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=cummaxi%2Fan&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> poieis <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=poiei%3Ds&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> thai Th.5.22 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a5%3a22&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. allêlous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29llh%2Flous&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> hêsuchian <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%28suxi%2Fan&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> eichon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29%3Dxon&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> allous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29%2Fllous&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> . . eirênên <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ei%29rh%2Fnhn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> êgon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=h%29%3Dgon&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Isoc.7.51 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0010%2c018%3a51&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. allêlous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29llh%2Flous&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> echthrai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29%2Fxqrai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> te <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=te&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> kai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=kai%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> stergêthra <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=ste%2Frghqra&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> A.Pr.491 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0085%2c003%3a491&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; also sainein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=sai%2Fnein&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> poti <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=poti%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> pantas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pa%2Fntas&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Pi.P.2.82 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0033%2c002%3a2%3a82&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , cf. O.4.6 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0033%2c001%3a4%3a6&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; paizein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pai%2Fzein&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> pros <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pro%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tinas&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> E.HF952 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0006%2c009%3a952&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , etc.; aphrodisiazein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29frodisia%2Fzein&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tina <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=2&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> X.Mem.1.3.14 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0032%2c002%3a1%3a3%3a14&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; agathos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29gaqo%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> gignesthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=gi%2Fgnesqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tina <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Th.1.86 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0003%2c001%3a1%3a86&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; eusebês <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=eu%29sebh%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=4&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> pelein <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=pe%2Flein&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> A.Supp.340 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0085%2c001%3a340&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; dialegesthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=diale%2Fgesqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tina <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=4&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> converse with . . , X.Mem.1.6.1 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0032%2c002%3a1%3a6%3a1&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , Aeschin.2.38 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0026%2c002%3a38&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ,40, 3.219 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0026%2c003%3a219&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; koinousthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=koinou%3Dsqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tinas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=5&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Pl.Lg.930c <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0059%2c034%3a930c&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; p. tous <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tou%2Fs&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=3&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> oiketas <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=oi%29ke%2Ftas&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> anakoinousthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29nakoinou%3Dsqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> peri <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=peri%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> tôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tw%3Dn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> megistôn <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=megi%2Fstwn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> Thphr.Char.4.2 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0093%2c009%3a4%3a2&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> ; dialogizesthai <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dialogi%2Fzesqai&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. tina <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=tina%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=5&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> balance accounts with . . , D.52.3 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c052%3a3&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> , cf. SIG241.127 (Delph., iv B. C.); ha <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%28%2F&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> echei <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=e%29%2Fxei&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> dielomenos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=dielo%2Fmenos&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> p. ton <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=to%2Fn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> adelphon <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/morphindex?lang=greek&lookup=a%29delfo%2Fn&bytepos=137439139&wordcount=1&embed=2&doc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.04.0057> IG12(7).55.8 (Amorgos <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/vor?type=phrase&alts=0&group=typecat&lookup=Amorgos&collection=Perseus:collection:Greco-Roman> , iv/iii B. C.), cf. D. 47.34 <http://www2.milligan.edu/exchange/mamatson/Drafts/RE:%20%5bJohn_Lit]%20%27The%20Word%20was%20toward%20God%27%20question.EML/ptext?doc=Perseus%3aabo%3atlg%2c0014%2c047%3a34&vers=original&word=pro%2fs#word1> .

          so.... I think "with God" is within the range of meanings. but perhaps understates the possibility of either reciprocal relationship or some derivative movement (e.g. "origin" listed above).

          Final note; prepositions are notoriously difficult words to "pin down" in simple meanings. They derived from adverbs, and often are very malleable in different contexts and with different cases.

          Does that help?


          Mark A. Matson
          Academic Dean
          Milligan College
          http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

          ________________________________

          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Marty
          Sent: Mon 12/22/2008 3:46 PM
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [John_Lit] 'The Word was toward God' question




          Dear fellows,

          This may sound very elementary, but I've never quite understood
          the rendering of 'pros' at the beginning of John as 'with.' I've never
          read 'pros' translated as 'with' anywhere but this particular passage.

          Could someone please explain this to me? Does the rendering of 'pros'
          as 'toward,' 'upon' or anything else alter the meaning of the text?

          Thank you.


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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Gary Henecke
          It is impossible for English to carry the depth of pros in this line. The Logos was eternally oriented to God. He is toward God - which is very poor. Your
          Message 4 of 15 , Dec 24, 2008
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            It is impossible for English to carry the depth of pros in this line.
            The Logos was eternally "oriented to" God. He is "toward" God - which
            is very poor.

            Your brother
            Gary Allen Henecke

            -----Original Message-----
            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Marty
            Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:46 PM
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [John_Lit] 'The Word was toward God' question


            Dear fellows,

            This may sound very elementary, but I've never quite understood
            the rendering of 'pros' at the beginning of John as 'with.' I've never
            read 'pros' translated as 'with' anywhere but this particular passage.

            Could someone please explain this to me? Does the rendering of 'pros'
            as 'toward,' 'upon' or anything else alter the meaning of the text?

            Thank you.
          • Kevin Snapp
            May I suggest a different angle, that the Greek in this context can best be understood by way of Semitic idiom. When I first learned Greek a long time ago I
            Message 5 of 15 , Dec 24, 2008
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              May I suggest a different angle, that the Greek in this context can
              best be understood by way of Semitic idiom. When I first learned Greek
              a long time ago I had the exact same question -- the usual translation
              was "with God," but "with" was not the usual meaning of pros with
              accusative object. Many years later after a Jewish education I returned
              to John and have been reading it through Jewish eyes, beginning with the
              prologue. John's first language is Aramaic, he knows the Bible in
              Hebrew, and he is writing for a Jewish-Christian community, or at least
              a community with an insider group of Jewish Christians, as there are a
              number of things that only someone with Jewish background would be
              expected to notice. Please excuse the style of the following, which I
              cut and pasted from a draft paper I am working on. I slipped footnotes
              into the text, and the Greek font didn't quite translate, but it's
              readable.

              **********************

              A Jewish reader would understand “the Word” in
              John’s context as referring to Torah -- not the Torah read in
              synagogues, but God’s supernal Torah, the “King of
              King’s Authorized Version,” as it were. Jewish midrash
              portrays God as consulting His Torah as a blueprint, as it were, before
              creating the world, and for John’s Jewish readers this would have
              been the image in play. Midrash Rabbah - Genesis I:1 [Although Genesis
              Rabbah is a third to fourth century collection, it is plausible that
              this image, based upon Pr.8:22, “The Lord made me as the
              beginning of His way,” was commonly known among educated Jews in
              the first century.]

              Although the New Testament normally renders “Torah” as
              “νομος,” “law,” here John is speaking
              of God’s Torah, which for God is not “law,” but the
              divine reason, intelligence and design-- a concept appropriately
              rendered as “λόγος.”

              I contend that the accepted translation, “the Word was with
              God,” does not properly express the relationship between the
              Word/Torah and God that would have been conveyed to John’s Jewish
              readers. In the New Testament, as in classical Greek, the preposition
              πρὸς with an accusative object normally denotes motion
              towards the object, e.g., Jn. 1:42, “ἤγαγεν
              αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν
              Ιησοῦν,” “he brought him to Jesus.” It
              does not mean “with” in the sense that something is
              together with something else, as demonstrated by Jn. 7:33,
              “Ετι χρόνον μικρὸν μεθ'
              á½`μῶν εἰμι καὶ á½`πάγω πρὸς
              τὸν πέμψαντά με,” “I will be
              with you (μεθ' á½`μῶν) a little while longer, and then I
              am going to him who sent me (πρὸς τὸν
              πέμψαντά με).”

              With a static verb, πρὸσ can mean “with respect
              to,” “in relation to,” as in Acts 24:16, a
              blameless conscience “before God and men,”
              “πρὸσ τὸν θεὸν καὶ τοὺσ
              ἀνθρώπουσ,” or in Rom. 5:1,
              “εἰρήνην á¼"χομεν πρὸσ τὸν
              θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν
              Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,” “we have peace
              with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

              But to translate “ὁ λόγοσ ἦν πρὸσ
              τὸν θεόν” as “the Word was in relation to
              God” doesn’t work. The indefinite expression
              “τὰ πρὸσ τὸν θεόν” can be
              rendered “things pertaining to God,” or “religious
              matters,” as in Rom. 15:17, “I have found reason for
              boasting in things pertaining to God,” but surely John did not
              intend readers to understand that the Word was a “religious
              object.”

              It should be kept in mind that the native language of both John and his
              “insider” audience was not Greek. In Semitic idiom,
              “in front of,” in Hebrew, “lifnei,”
              literally “to-the-face-of-” someone, in Aramaic,
              “kadam,” “before,” is used metaphorically to
              mean “in his presence” and at a higher remove,
              “mentally present,” i.e., in his awareness.

              When Paul says in Rom. 4:2, “if Abraham was justified by works,
              he has something to boast about, but not “πρὸσ
              θεόν,” he does not mean “but not [boasting] toward
              God,” but rather, not boasting “before God,” or
              “in God’s presence.”

              This is the sense in which the Word/Logos is said to be πρὸσ
              τὸν θεόν, reflecting a shift from the literal meaning
              of the Greek, “toward God,” through the literal Semitic
              “to God’s face,” “in front of God,”
              to the metaphorical Semitic, “in God’s presence,”
              “in God’s awareness.” When speaking of what was
              “in the beginning,” the temporal sense of
              “before” would render “the Word was before
              God” confusing; an appropriate translation might be “the
              Word was in God’s awareness,” or perhaps making God the
              subject, “God was conscious of the Word.”

              C.F. Burney, who argued that John’s Gospel is a translation of an
              Aramaic original, distinguished between New Testament
              “Hebraisms,” usages or idioms derived from biblical Hebrew
              via the Septuagint, and “Aramaisms,” which could be
              derived from Aramaic but not from Hebrew, although acknowledging
              “Semitisms” common to both languages. C.F. Burney, The
              Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1922),
              7-17. Burney states that “the phrase πρὸσ τὸν
              θεόν in the sense ‘with God' is remarkable,” id.
              28, noting that in the Synoptics it is only found in Mark or material
              taken from Mark, and is an Aramaism. He hypothesized that “[i]n
              Aramaic the common preposition לְוָת (possibly akin to the
              verb לְוִ×" ‘join’) denotes (i) connexion with,
              apud, παρα , (2) motion towards, ad, πρόσ. It may be
              suggested that feeling for the second meaning so commonly borne by
              לְוָת has moved the translator of an Aramaic original to
              represent the preposition by πρόσ even when used in the
              former sense.” Id. 29.

              The Peshitta (the Aramaic translation of the New Testament) also uses
              לְוָת. However, I suggest both Burney and the translator of
              the Peshitta passed over the possible alternative Semitic sense of
              πρόσ because, in accordance with traditional Christian
              understanding they assumed that “the Word” is a person of
              equal dignity with God and consequently that πρὸσ τὸν
              θεόν was intended to mean “[together] with God”
              and not “in God’s presence.” According to Burney,
              this usage of πρόσ occurs only this once in John’s
              Gospel. John (or his translator) elsewhere knew and used the usual
              Greek prepositions meaning “with.”

              The universal English translation, “the Word was with
              God,” inclines the reader toward understanding “the
              Word” as it has traditionally been understood in Christian
              theology, as a separate hypostasis. But this would not necessarily have
              been the sense of the original Greek, particularly to one whose native
              idiom was Aramaic. To give an English example, if we read, “when
              the builder constructed the house, X was before him,” without
              being told what X might be, we naturally infer that X is something like
              a plan or model, either literally in front of the builder, or at least
              figuratively in front of him, “in his mind’s eye.”
              If instead we read, “when the builder constructed the house, X
              was with him,” we infer that X is not a thing, but a person, even
              though X could be replaced with “a blueprint,” or even
              “a hammer.”

              So at the creation, the Word, God’s ineffable Torah, was present
              to God’s consciousness, and we are told “καὶ
              θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ.” But Torah, even
              personified in Jewish lore as “Wisdom,” is not God. John
              omits the definite article, and does not say, “καὶ ὁ
              θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ,” as might be
              expected after “καὶ ὁ λόγοσ ἦν
              πρὸσ τὸν θεόν,” but “καὶ
              θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ,” permitting
              θεὸσ to be read adjectivally, “and divine/supernal was
              the Word/Torah,” as if to make clear that this is not
              God’s Word in the form of the Torah we know, but the wholly
              divine version in God’s own consciousness.

              So even in this first verse, John may not be saying what we are
              accustomed to understanding him to say. Verse 2, “οὗτοσ
              ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸσ τὸν
              θεόν” “this was in the beginning in God’s
              awareness,” can be read as re-emphasizing the separation and
              distinction between Logos/Torah and God, so that verse 3,
              “πάντα δι? αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
              καὶ χωρὶσ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο
              οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν,” should be
              read, “all things came to be through it (Logos/Torah), and apart
              from it nothing came to be that came to be,” rather than
              “all things came to be through him. A Jew would have no
              difficulty in affirming that all things came to be
              “through” or “by means of” (Greek δια,
              Hebrew ×`-) God’s primal Torah.
              *************************************
              Kevin Snapp
              Chicago
            • Gary
              I appreciate the efforts of Kevin and Gary. However, in order for their arguments to carry serious weight, they would have to show us why pros is translated as
              Message 6 of 15 , Dec 24, 2008
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                I appreciate the efforts of Kevin and Gary. However, in order for
                their arguments to carry serious weight, they would have to show us
                why pros is translated as "with" in other settings that will not
                carry the meanings that they suggest. Here are a few of the other
                texts where pros is usually translated as with:

                Mk 14:49 "Every day I was _with_ you in the temple..."
                Lk 9:41 "You unbelieving and wicked generation, how long shall I be
                _with_ you...?"
                1 Cor 2:3 "I was _with_ you in weakness and much fear..."
                1 Cor 16:10 "If Timothy comes, see to it that he is _with_ you
                without cause to be afraid... "
                2 Thess 2:5 "Don't you remember that when I was still _with_ you, I
                was telling you these things?"
                2 Thes 3:10 "Even when we were _with_ you, we used to order..."
                1 Jn 1:2 "... we proclaim to you the eternal life which was _with_
                the father..."

                Note that all of these combine eimi or ginomai with pros (although
                not every such combination should be translated as "to be with").

                Since all of these examples (and I am sure there are others) have the
                very simple meaning of being present with someone, it does not seem
                that there is good evidence to see any special meaning for pros in Jn
                1:1-2.

                It is risky to base any interpretation too strongly on the use of
                prepositions, because prepositions in most languages are so flexible
                and idiomatic. Any argument of the sort "this preposition always
                means x" is suspect, since context is so important for determining
                the meaning of a preposition (or any word, for that matter).

                We could make a similar error in English by saying that the word "at"
                always implies direction or orientation - and then be confused by the
                idiomatic expression "someone is at the door." Clearly, in that
                case, "at" means "next to," and even implies "waiting for someone."

                With the examples from elsewhere in the NT that I gave above, I think
                it is pretty clear that pros is being used here in a fairly ordinary
                way. In order for someone to make the case that pros implies
                orientation or "in God's awareness," we would need a number of other
                examples from Hellenistic Greek to prove the case. To claim a
                semitism does not really help here, unless we can find other examples
                of unusual and relevant uses of pros by an author who was influenced
                by a semitic language.
              • Kevin Snapp
                Postscript to my comment of 12/24 When I saw my own comment as delivered by e-mail, the Greek was illegible, and attempting to change the encoding settings in
                Message 7 of 15 , Dec 25, 2008
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                  Postscript to my comment of 12/24

                  When I saw my own comment as delivered by e-mail, the Greek was
                  illegible, and attempting to change the encoding settings in my
                  browser wouldn't fix it. It was readable, however, although not
                  perfect, on the Yahoo Groups website when I sent it, and still is. (My
                  browser is set to Unicode UTF-8). If others can't read it from the
                  website, I'll see what I can do. Sorry for any inconvenience.

                  Kevin Snapp
                  Chicago
                • bill ace
                  Thank you every one who has responded to my query. It appears that there is actually a diversity of opinion on this matter, or at least a group of ways to
                  Message 8 of 15 , Dec 27, 2008
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                    Thank you every one who has responded to my query. It appears that there is actually a diversity of opinion on this matter, or at least a group of ways to understand 'pros' as 'with'.

                    I think this shows either how much we know about the Bible, or how little, or somehow both.

                    Martin C. Arno





















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Gary Henecke
                    A lot of assumptions her as fact: assumptions on the language of the first readers, and the community of the first readers, and John s intent or understanding
                    Message 9 of 15 , Dec 27, 2008
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                      A lot of assumptions her as fact: assumptions on the language of the first readers, and the community of the first readers, and John's intent or understanding from the Midrash writings - even John's knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures versus the LXX.

                      Your brother
                      Gary Allen Henecke
                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Kevin Snapp
                      Sent: Wednesday, December 24, 2008 3:39 PM
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: 'The Word was toward God' question

                      May I suggest a different angle, that the Greek in this context can
                      best be understood by way of Semitic idiom. When I first learned Greek
                      a long time ago I had the exact same question -- the usual translation
                      was "with God," but "with" was not the usual meaning of pros with
                      accusative object. Many years later after a Jewish education I returned
                      to John and have been reading it through Jewish eyes, beginning with the
                      prologue. John's first language is Aramaic, he knows the Bible in
                      Hebrew, and he is writing for a Jewish-Christian community, or at least
                      a community with an insider group of Jewish Christians, as there are a
                      number of things that only someone with Jewish background would be
                      expected to notice. Please excuse the style of the following, which I
                      cut and pasted from a draft paper I am working on. I slipped footnotes
                      into the text, and the Greek font didn't quite translate, but it's
                      readable.

                      **********************

                      A Jewish reader would understand “the Word” in
                      John’s context as referring to Torah -- not the Torah read in
                      synagogues, but God’s supernal Torah, the “King of
                      King’s Authorized Version,” as it were. Jewish midrash
                      portrays God as consulting His Torah as a blueprint, as it were, before
                      creating the world, and for John’s Jewish readers this would have
                      been the image in play. Midrash Rabbah - Genesis I:1 [Although Genesis
                      Rabbah is a third to fourth century collection, it is plausible that
                      this image, based upon Pr.8:22, “The Lord made me as the
                      beginning of His way,” was commonly known among educated Jews in
                      the first century.]

                      Although the New Testament normally renders “Torah” as
                      “νομος,” “law,” here John is speaking
                      of God’s Torah, which for God is not “law,” but the
                      divine reason, intelligence and design-- a concept appropriately
                      rendered as “λόγος.”

                      I contend that the accepted translation, “the Word was with
                      God,” does not properly express the relationship between the
                      Word/Torah and God that would have been conveyed to John’s Jewish
                      readers. In the New Testament, as in classical Greek, the preposition
                      πρὸς with an accusative object normally denotes motion
                      towards the object, e.g., Jn. 1:42, “ἤγαγεν
                      αὐτὸν πρὸς τὸν
                      Ιησοῦν,” “he brought him to Jesus.” It
                      does not mean “with” in the sense that something is
                      together with something else, as demonstrated by Jn. 7:33,
                      “Ετι χρόνον μικρὸν μεθ'
                      á½`μῶν εἰμι καὶ á½`πάγω πρὸς
                      τὸν πέμψαντά με,” “I will be
                      with you (μεθ' á½`μῶν) a little while longer, and then I
                      am going to him who sent me (πρὸς τὸν
                      πέμψαντά με).”

                      With a static verb, πρὸσ can mean “with respect
                      to,” “in relation to,” as in Acts 24:16, a
                      blameless conscience “before God and men,”
                      “πρὸσ τὸν θεὸν καὶ τοὺσ
                      ἀνθρώπουσ,” or in Rom. 5:1,
                      “εἰρήνην á¼"χομεν πρὸσ τὸν
                      θεὸν διὰ τοῦ κυρίου ἡμῶν
                      Ἰησοῦ Χριστοῦ,” “we have peace
                      with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.”

                      But to translate “ὁ λόγοσ ἦν πρὸσ
                      τὸν θεόν” as “the Word was in relation to
                      God” doesn’t work. The indefinite expression
                      “τὰ πρὸσ τὸν θεόν” can be
                      rendered “things pertaining to God,” or “religious
                      matters,” as in Rom. 15:17, “I have found reason for
                      boasting in things pertaining to God,” but surely John did not
                      intend readers to understand that the Word was a “religious
                      object.”

                      It should be kept in mind that the native language of both John and his
                      “insider” audience was not Greek. In Semitic idiom,
                      “in front of,” in Hebrew, “lifnei,”
                      literally “to-the-face-of-” someone, in Aramaic,
                      “kadam,” “before,” is used metaphorically to
                      mean “in his presence” and at a higher remove,
                      “mentally present,” i.e., in his awareness.

                      When Paul says in Rom. 4:2, “if Abraham was justified by works,
                      he has something to boast about, but not “πρὸσ
                      θεόν,” he does not mean “but not [boasting] toward
                      God,” but rather, not boasting “before God,” or
                      “in God’s presence.”

                      This is the sense in which the Word/Logos is said to be πρὸσ
                      τὸν θεόν, reflecting a shift from the literal meaning
                      of the Greek, “toward God,” through the literal Semitic
                      “to God’s face,” “in front of God,”
                      to the metaphorical Semitic, “in God’s presence,”
                      “in God’s awareness.” When speaking of what was
                      “in the beginning,” the temporal sense of
                      “before” would render “the Word was before
                      God” confusing; an appropriate translation might be “the
                      Word was in God’s awareness,” or perhaps making God the
                      subject, “God was conscious of the Word.”

                      C.F. Burney, who argued that John’s Gospel is a translation of an
                      Aramaic original, distinguished between New Testament
                      “Hebraisms,” usages or idioms derived from biblical Hebrew
                      via the Septuagint, and “Aramaisms,” which could be
                      derived from Aramaic but not from Hebrew, although acknowledging
                      “Semitisms” common to both languages. C.F. Burney, The
                      Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel (Oxford: Clarendon Press, 1922),
                      7-17. Burney states that “the phrase πρὸσ τὸν
                      θεόν in the sense ‘with God' is remarkable,” id.
                      28, noting that in the Synoptics it is only found in Mark or material
                      taken from Mark, and is an Aramaism. He hypothesized that “[i]n
                      Aramaic the common preposition לְוָת (possibly akin to the
                      verb לְוִ×" ‘join’) denotes (i) connexion with,
                      apud, παρα , (2) motion towards, ad, πρόσ. It may be
                      suggested that feeling for the second meaning so commonly borne by
                      לְוָת has moved the translator of an Aramaic original to
                      represent the preposition by πρόσ even when used in the
                      former sense.” Id. 29.

                      The Peshitta (the Aramaic translation of the New Testament) also uses
                      לְוָת. However, I suggest both Burney and the translator of
                      the Peshitta passed over the possible alternative Semitic sense of
                      πρόσ because, in accordance with traditional Christian
                      understanding they assumed that “the Word” is a person of
                      equal dignity with God and consequently that πρὸσ τὸν
                      θεόν was intended to mean “[together] with God”
                      and not “in God’s presence.” According to Burney,
                      this usage of πρόσ occurs only this once in John’s
                      Gospel. John (or his translator) elsewhere knew and used the usual
                      Greek prepositions meaning “with.”

                      The universal English translation, “the Word was with
                      God,” inclines the reader toward understanding “the
                      Word” as it has traditionally been understood in Christian
                      theology, as a separate hypostasis. But this would not necessarily have
                      been the sense of the original Greek, particularly to one whose native
                      idiom was Aramaic. To give an English example, if we read, “when
                      the builder constructed the house, X was before him,” without
                      being told what X might be, we naturally infer that X is something like
                      a plan or model, either literally in front of the builder, or at least
                      figuratively in front of him, “in his mind’s eye.”
                      If instead we read, “when the builder constructed the house, X
                      was with him,” we infer that X is not a thing, but a person, even
                      though X could be replaced with “a blueprint,” or even
                      “a hammer.”

                      So at the creation, the Word, God’s ineffable Torah, was present
                      to God’s consciousness, and we are told “καὶ
                      θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ.” But Torah, even
                      personified in Jewish lore as “Wisdom,” is not God. John
                      omits the definite article, and does not say, “καὶ ὁ
                      θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ,” as might be
                      expected after “καὶ ὁ λόγοσ ἦν
                      πρὸσ τὸν θεόν,” but “καὶ
                      θεὸσ ἦν ὁ λόγοσ,” permitting
                      θεὸσ to be read adjectivally, “and divine/supernal was
                      the Word/Torah,” as if to make clear that this is not
                      God’s Word in the form of the Torah we know, but the wholly
                      divine version in God’s own consciousness.

                      So even in this first verse, John may not be saying what we are
                      accustomed to understanding him to say. Verse 2, “οὗτοσ
                      ἦν ἐν ἀρχῇ πρὸσ τὸν
                      θεόν” “this was in the beginning in God’s
                      awareness,” can be read as re-emphasizing the separation and
                      distinction between Logos/Torah and God, so that verse 3,
                      “πάντα δι? αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο,
                      καὶ χωρὶσ αὐτοῦ ἐγένετο
                      οὐδὲ ἕν ὃ γέγονεν,” should be
                      read, “all things came to be through it (Logos/Torah), and apart
                      from it nothing came to be that came to be,” rather than
                      “all things came to be through him. A Jew would have no
                      difficulty in affirming that all things came to be
                      “through” or “by means of” (Greek δια,
                      Hebrew ×`-) God’s primal Torah.
                      *************************************
                      Kevin Snapp
                      Chicago
                    • Kym Smith
                      Dear Marty, It was not long ago that I heard someone say that pros ton theon could be understood - and probably should in this case - as face to face with
                      Message 10 of 15 , Dec 28, 2008
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                        Dear Marty,

                        It was not long ago that I heard someone say that 'pros ton theon'
                        could be understood - and probably should in this case - as 'face to
                        face with God'. I can't remember his source and I'd rather not have to
                        find it. This would seem to be a difficult way to read it each time
                        'pros ton theon' is used, though perhaps not impossible. A couple of
                        interesting instances where it would make wonderful sense relate to
                        Jesus in his high priestly ministry (Heb 2:17) and our confidence in
                        our relationship with God (1 Jn 3:21).

                        Hope this is helpful,

                        Kym Smith
                        All Saints Anglican Church
                        Seacliff
                        South Australia




                        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Marty" <zilabon@...> wrote:
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear fellows,
                        >
                        > This may sound very elementary, but I've never quite understood
                        > the rendering of 'pros' at the beginning of John as 'with.' I've never
                        > read 'pros' translated as 'with' anywhere but this particular passage.
                        >
                        > Could someone please explain this to me? Does the rendering of 'pros'
                        > as 'toward,' 'upon' or anything else alter the meaning of the text?
                        >
                        > Thank you.
                        >
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        In front of. Jack ... From: Marty To: Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:46 PM Subject:
                        Message 11 of 15 , Dec 29, 2008
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                          "In front of."

                          Jack


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Marty" <zilabon@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Monday, December 22, 2008 2:46 PM
                          Subject: [John_Lit] 'The Word was toward God' question


                          >
                          > Dear fellows,
                          >
                          > This may sound very elementary, but I've never quite understood
                          > the rendering of 'pros' at the beginning of John as 'with.' I've never
                          > read 'pros' translated as 'with' anywhere but this particular passage.
                          >
                          > Could someone please explain this to me? Does the rendering of 'pros'
                          > as 'toward,' 'upon' or anything else alter the meaning of the text?
                          >
                          > Thank you.
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
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                        • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                          Exactly, Gary. Both your posts on this are spot on . But who are you? I don t see any identification on your posts? Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan
                          Message 12 of 15 , Dec 30, 2008
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                            Exactly, Gary. Both your posts on this are "spot on".

                            But who are you? I don't see any identification on your posts?

                            Mark A. Matson
                            Academic Dean
                            Milligan College
                            http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                            ________________________________

                            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of Gary
                            Sent: Wed 12/24/2008 6:56 PM
                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: 'The Word was toward God' question



                            I appreciate the efforts of Kevin and Gary. However, in order for
                            their arguments to carry serious weight, they would have to show us
                            why pros is translated as "with" in other settings that will not
                            carry the meanings that they suggest. Here are a few of the other
                            texts where pros is usually translated as with:

                            Mk 14:49 "Every day I was _with_ you in the temple..."
                            Lk 9:41 "You unbelieving and wicked generation, how long shall I be
                            _with_ you...?"
                            1 Cor 2:3 "I was _with_ you in weakness and much fear..."
                            1 Cor 16:10 "If Timothy comes, see to it that he is _with_ you
                            without cause to be afraid... "
                            2 Thess 2:5 "Don't you remember that when I was still _with_ you, I
                            was telling you these things?"
                            2 Thes 3:10 "Even when we were _with_ you, we used to order..."
                            1 Jn 1:2 "... we proclaim to you the eternal life which was _with_
                            the father..."

                            Note that all of these combine eimi or ginomai with pros (although
                            not every such combination should be translated as "to be with").

                            Since all of these examples (and I am sure there are others) have the
                            very simple meaning of being present with someone, it does not seem
                            that there is good evidence to see any special meaning for pros in Jn
                            1:1-2.

                            It is risky to base any interpretation too strongly on the use of
                            prepositions, because prepositions in most languages are so flexible
                            and idiomatic. Any argument of the sort "this preposition always
                            means x" is suspect, since context is so important for determining
                            the meaning of a preposition (or any word, for that matter).

                            We could make a similar error in English by saying that the word "at"
                            always implies direction or orientation - and then be confused by the
                            idiomatic expression "someone is at the door." Clearly, in that
                            case, "at" means "next to," and even implies "waiting for someone."

                            With the examples from elsewhere in the NT that I gave above, I think
                            it is pretty clear that pros is being used here in a fairly ordinary
                            way. In order for someone to make the case that pros implies
                            orientation or "in God's awareness," we would need a number of other
                            examples from Hellenistic Greek to prove the case. To claim a
                            semitism does not really help here, unless we can find other examples
                            of unusual and relevant uses of pros by an author who was influenced
                            by a semitic language.


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                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Gary
                            Hi Mark, Thanks for the encouraging comment. Sorry about the unintentional anonymity on the earlier posts (perhaps like John? :). Here s my normal email
                            Message 13 of 15 , Dec 30, 2008
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                              Hi Mark,

                              Thanks for the encouraging comment. Sorry about the unintentional
                              anonymity on the earlier posts (perhaps like John? :). Here's my normal
                              email signature:
                              _________________________________________
                              Gary Manning, Ph.D.
                              http://eutychusnerd.blogspot.com/
                              Interim Academic Dean
                              Associate Professor of Bible and Biblical Languages
                              Pacific Rim Bible College
                            • Kevin Snapp
                              Gary and Mark, Let me try to respond to Gary’s objection, and I ask Mark not to brush me off quite yet. There is a serious question here, even if you
                              Message 14 of 15 , Dec 31, 2008
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                                Gary and Mark,

                                Let me try to respond to Gary’s objection, and I ask Mark not to brush
                                me off quite yet. There is a serious question here, even if you don’t
                                agree with my approach or answer to it.

                                I put in my two cents’ worth because Marty’s exact question was what
                                prompted me to look closely at John’s Gospel through a Jewish lens,
                                leading, I think, to a whole new perspective that I am trying to nail
                                down. My thesis, which I can hardly lay out here, is that John’s
                                Gospel was written for two separate audiences. “Outsiders” would read
                                John as consistent with the Synoptics, while Jewish “insiders” who
                                knew to look for clues would find a different picture of Jesus. I'm
                                not asking anyone to take something so radical seriously here, only to
                                consider the possibility that there may be subtleties.

                                I see two separate issues. The first is whether the use of “pros”
                                with accusative object to mean “with” or something similar -- an
                                important qualification -- is a semitism or whether this is using the
                                preposition “in a fairly ordinary way.” Second, if it is a semitism,
                                what difference might it make.

                                I am not a Greek scholar, so my primary reference is my large Liddell
                                and Scott, and I see no comparable usage listed outside the NT. Peter
                                Philips, in his monograph on the prologue doesn’t either. The
                                Prologue of the Fourth Gospel, London, T&T Clark (2006) 150 n. 30.
                                Philips takes the problem seriously -- that normally “pros” with
                                accusative means “toward,” static relationships are normally indicated
                                by the dative, and that the author of John uses “pros” with static
                                verb and dative object to express a locative relationship on four
                                occasions, making the doubled usage in Jn. 1:1 with accusative unique
                                in the Gospel, ibid. 151.

                                Philips cites 27 examples in Strong’s concordance of “pros” with
                                accusative object and a stative verb used “in a locative sense” in the
                                NT, 4.3% of the occurrences of the preposition, ibid. 151 n.34.
                                Philips offers a catalog of commentators’ understandings of “pros ton
                                theon” in Jn. 1:1, but although mentioning in passing (151 n. 32) that
                                it has been suggested that “pros” in Jn. 1:1 reflects Aramaic “lwat,”
                                Philips offers no discussion of a possible Semitic idiom.

                                Craig Keener’s two-volume commentary, which I bought because it is
                                recent and thick, is disappointing. Keener states in a footnote that
                                “[t]he construction here represents neither movement toward God
                                [citations] nor an Aramaism [no citation]; by this period prepositions
                                were becoming more ambiguous (cf., e.g., μετ’ αλληλων in 6:43 and προς
                                αλληλους in 6:52).” Craig S. Keener, The Gospel of John: A Commentary
                                (Hendrickson, 2003) 370 n. 48. These examples are meaningless, as
                                they represent different prepositions used with different verbs.

                                I don’t believe many would say John is sloppy with prepositions.
                                Zerwick notes that unlike some NT authors, John scrupulously
                                distinguishes between “en” with dative denoting position and “eis”
                                with accusative denoting motion. Maximilian Zerwick, Biblical Greek,
                                4th English ed. (Rome: Pont. Bib. Inst. 2005) 33-34. (The sole
                                exception, in Jn. 1:18, is explained by my thesis.)

                                Looking at NT scholarship as an outsider, this is surprising. Here
                                is a Greek usage that is apparently found only in the NT, yet hardly
                                anyone asks whether this might point to some common element in the
                                backgrounds of a majority of NT authors that influenced their use of
                                Greek, something not shared with other ancient authors. Put that way,
                                the answer is obvious: a majority of the NT authors were Jews, who
                                either spoke Aramaic as their first language or had been raised in
                                communities where the Greek spoken was strongly influenced by Aramaic
                                and/or Hebrew. It needn't have had any effect on the meaning, but
                                it's possible.

                                Christianity has always been a religion in translation, since it was
                                understood that the Gospel was for all nations. But while the author
                                of John was a Christian believer, he was also an educated Jew. Jews
                                had a different attitude toward their scriptures, which were written
                                for one people only. In particular, the Torah, believed to have been
                                dictated by God to Moses, surely contained endless mysteries yet
                                undiscovered, making real translation impossible and endowing every
                                textual quirk with potential meaning. Essential for salvation, of
                                course not. But essential for understanding.

                                Paul and Mark are well known for their Semitic usages. I don’t think
                                that today it is debated that the author of John’s Gospel was a
                                Palestinian Jew, and he quite possibly also wrote 1John. C.F. Burney
                                in The Aramaic Origin of the Fourth Gospel (Oxford: Clarendon Press,
                                1922), was so impressed with John’s semitic idiom that he tried to
                                prove John’s Gospel was originally written in Aramaic.

                                Luke’s native tongue was Greek, although he affects Semitic diction
                                when imitating the Septuagint, the Bible known to most Gentiles and to
                                western diaspora Jews, and the Septuagint is full of semitisms. But
                                when Luke quotes Mark, as in your example, Lk 9:41, he is quoting Mk
                                9:19, Mark’s Semitic idiom comes along for the ride.

                                So I think my assertion that this is a semitism holds up. The next
                                question is what difference it makes, which is harder.

                                It’s necessary to frame the question properly. It is tempting to say,
                                “since a stative verb + pros + accusative object means ‘with’ at a, b
                                and c in Mark and Luke, its usage in Jn 1:1 isn’t anything special.”
                                But that would be a form of circular reasoning, essentially concluding
                                that if “with” works as a translation, that’s good enough.

                                Obviously, if something is off in left field it won’t work at all, but
                                there is a difference between, e.g., “I don’t want you with me,” and
                                “I don’t want you in my presence.” Although at a crude level they
                                mean the same thing, the difference says a great deal about the
                                relationship between the persons involved. I believe John is saying,
                                to those aware of the Semitic idiom, that the Word was in God’s
                                presence, implying that the Word is not a person, while allowing those
                                who are unaware of that idiom to believe that “pros ton theon” is just
                                an odd way of saying “with God” as one Person is with another.

                                Starting with Philips' 27 occurrences of “pros” with accusative and
                                stative verb in a locative sense, taking away the two we are trying to
                                interpret in Jn. 1:1 and the two in 1 Jn. dependent on them, we have
                                23: Mt. 13.56; Mk. 6.3, 9.10, 9.19, 14.49; Lk. 9.41, 18.11; 1 Cor.
                                2.3, 16.7, 16.10; 2 Cor. 6.14, 6.15, 11.9, 12.21; Gal. 1.18, 2.5,
                                4.18, 4.20; 1Thess. 3.4; 2 Thess. 2.5, 3.10; Phil. 1.3; and Heb. 4.13.

                                Removing Lk. 9:41 and Mt. 13:56, both of which copy Mark, leaves 21.
                                Luke 18:11 is out, because the direction of speech is a conventional
                                use of “pros” with accusative; the Pharisee, standing, “to himself
                                prayed thus, ‘O God ...’” “προς εαυτον ταυτα προσηυχετο ο θεος ...”
                                Note that since the similar usages in Matthew and Luke were copied
                                directly from Mark, all of those in the Gospels originate with Mark
                                except for our problematic John 1:1.

                                It is late and this is already a long post. I expect to return in a
                                day or two and go down the list of the remaining twenty. Although
                                many can be translated by “with,” I believe none corresponds to the
                                situation assumed in Jn. 1:1, where one person is “with” another, and
                                I think I can make a case that that “the Word was in God’s presence”
                                is a preferable translation. And if I’m not back before 2009, Happy
                                New Year to all.


                                --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Gary"
                                <gary.t.manning@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > I appreciate the efforts of Kevin and Gary. However, in order for
                                > their arguments to carry serious weight, they would have to show us
                                > why pros is translated as "with" in other settings that will not
                                > carry the meanings that they suggest. Here are a few of the other
                                > texts where pros is usually translated as with:
                                >
                                > Mk 14:49 "Every day I was _with_ you in the temple..."
                                > Lk 9:41 "You unbelieving and wicked generation, how long shall I be
                                > _with_ you...?"
                                > 1 Cor 2:3 "I was _with_ you in weakness and much fear..."
                                > 1 Cor 16:10 "If Timothy comes, see to it that he is _with_ you
                                > without cause to be afraid... "
                                > 2 Thess 2:5 "Don't you remember that when I was still _with_ you, I
                                > was telling you these things?"
                                > 2 Thes 3:10 "Even when we were _with_ you, we used to order..."
                                > 1 Jn 1:2 "... we proclaim to you the eternal life which was _with_
                                > the father..."
                                >
                                > Note that all of these combine eimi or ginomai with pros (although
                                > not every such combination should be translated as "to be with").
                                >
                                > Since all of these examples (and I am sure there are others) have the
                                > very simple meaning of being present with someone, it does not seem
                                > that there is good evidence to see any special meaning for pros in Jn
                                > 1:1-2.
                                >
                                > It is risky to base any interpretation too strongly on the use of
                                > prepositions, because prepositions in most languages are so flexible
                                > and idiomatic. Any argument of the sort "this preposition always
                                > means x" is suspect, since context is so important for determining
                                > the meaning of a preposition (or any word, for that matter).
                                >
                                > We could make a similar error in English by saying that the word "at"
                                > always implies direction or orientation - and then be confused by the
                                > idiomatic expression "someone is at the door." Clearly, in that
                                > case, "at" means "next to," and even implies "waiting for someone."
                                >
                                > With the examples from elsewhere in the NT that I gave above, I think
                                > it is pretty clear that pros is being used here in a fairly ordinary
                                > way. In order for someone to make the case that pros implies
                                > orientation or "in God's awareness," we would need a number of other
                                > examples from Hellenistic Greek to prove the case. To claim a
                                > semitism does not really help here, unless we can find other examples
                                > of unusual and relevant uses of pros by an author who was influenced
                                > by a semitic language.
                                >
                              • Kevin Snapp
                                Hello, Gary, If the purpose of your post was to warn someone without background in NT scholarship that what I suggested should not be taken as authoritative,
                                Message 15 of 15 , Jan 1, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hello, Gary,

                                  If the purpose of your post was to warn someone without background in
                                  NT scholarship that what I suggested should not be taken as
                                  authoritative, fine, but I doubt that anyone could make that mistake.
                                  If you want to teach me or advance the discussion, you will need to
                                  be specific.

                                  "Fact" and "assumption" are a false dichotomy. We have no "facts"
                                  in the sense of generally undisputed historical truths concerning the
                                  author of the Fourth Gospel and his community; there is debate even
                                  as to who the author was. There are only inferences, more or less
                                  supported (or supportable) and more or less accepted among scholars.
                                  In calling into question the accepted understanding of "pros ton
                                  theon" I was proposing something outside the scholarly "mainstream,"
                                  but in proposing it I don't believe I was assuming anything outside
                                  the mainstream with respect to the matters you cryptically mention.

                                  I did assert (or "assume") certain things without giving reasons, but
                                  I believe they are reasonably well-supported in the literature. I
                                  accept that the author of John's Gospel -- the first author, not
                                  necessarily the last contributor -- was a Palestinian Jew, that
                                  his own community was Jewish, that he knew Jewish laws and customs,
                                  that he was familiar with much of the Bible in Hebrew as well as in
                                  Greek, and that the prologue reflects familiarity with Jewish
                                  extra-canonical oral and written traditions relating the "Wisdom"
                                  figure of Proverbs, the Torah and God. The author wrote the Gospel
                                  intending both that it would be preserved within his own
                                  Jewish-Christian community and be disseminated among other Christian
                                  communities, Jewish, Gentile and mixed.

                                  I am aware that some highly-respected scholars have taken the position
                                  that the prologue was originally a separate composition, but my
                                  assumption (I have reasons, but assume it here) that it is an integral
                                  part of the Gospel is, if anything, a conservative one.

                                  I think this is all mainstream, even if not all undisputed. What
                                  assumptions do you believe I am making that are unsupported and/or
                                  outside the mainstream of Johannine scholarship?

                                  Kevin

                                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Gary Henecke"
                                  <ghenecke@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > A lot of assumptions her as fact: assumptions on the language of the
                                  first readers, and the community of the first readers, and John's
                                  intent or understanding from the Midrash writings - even John's
                                  knowledge of the Hebrew scriptures versus the LXX.
                                  >
                                  > Your brother
                                  > Gary Allen Henecke
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