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Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

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  • Tom Butler
    John,    Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
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      John,
         Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for them).  A U.S. address would cut my mailing cost.  Thank you for the offer.
         Your brief description of your article and forthcoming book suggests that you and I may be on similar tracks.  I do not have any expertise in the study of the Targum, but I suspect that the Fourth Gospel may be a skillfully written Midrash of the Gospel story, an effort to write the Christian Gospel using the language of the Septuagint, perhaps even an effort to re-write (update?) the Torah in the light of Christ.  
         Specifically, I have suggested that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel use "signs" (words and symbols taken from the Septuagint - especially from the Torah) to show to initiated readers how Jesus systematically replaced every element of the Mosaic system of worship: the temple, the festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.  My book focuses on John 11, 12 and 13, what I call "the ordination trilogy," showing how Jesus replaced the priesthood with His own disciples, including Mary of Bethany, my candidate for the role of "Beloved Disciple," who is given a status equivalent to that of Peter (bishop) and entrusted with the task of maintaining the tradition of His death.
          Clearly I'm on unorthodox ground.  I'm always hoping that someone has traveled in similar territory and can enter into a scholarly dialogue with me regarding what I think I've found.  The contributors to this list include some who have been willing to venture for a short way in that direction with me.  I'm hoping you will be one too.
      In Christ's service,
      Tom Butler




      ----- Original Message ----
      From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:13:19 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


      Greetings Tom,
      A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
      Regards in the Lord,
      John Ronning

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@pacbell. net>
      To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

      Dear John,
          I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
      Yours in Christ's service,
      Dr. Tom Butler
       

      ----- Original Message ----
      From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
      To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

      Greetings all,

      Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
      possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
      expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
      Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
      the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
      continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
      last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
      really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
      OT).

      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
      of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
      of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
      Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
      pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
      my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
      Targums of the Pentateuch.

      Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
      features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
      illuminating John. Some random examples:

      1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
      Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
      and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
      he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
      back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
      resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
      32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
      this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
      one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
      translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
      delivers from my hand.."

      2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
      for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
      these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
      water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
      This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
      woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
      to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
      well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
      conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

      3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
      to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
      In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
      Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
      ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
      from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
      and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
      John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
      (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

      4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
      not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
      how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
      done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
      believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
      who believed in his name).

      In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
      divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
      the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
      the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
      does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
      background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
      programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
      pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
      other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
      the upper room as a new Sinai).

      Some food for thought, I trust.

      John Ronning
      jronning@yahoo. com

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • dean198
      Dear John, I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very
      Message 2 of 28 , Apr 18 6:52 AM
      • 0 Attachment
        Dear John,
        I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
        Thanks
        Dean
        BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
        Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
        >
        > Greetings all,
        >
        > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
        > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
        > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
        > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
        > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
        > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
        > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
        > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
        > OT).
        >
        > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
        > Targums of the Pentateuch.
        >
        > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
        > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
        > illuminating John. Some random examples:
        >
        > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
        > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
        > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
        > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
        > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
        > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
        > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
        > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
        > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
        > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
        > delivers from my hand."
        >
        > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
        > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
        > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
        > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
        > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
        > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
        > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
        > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
        > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
        >
        > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
        > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
        > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
        > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
        > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
        > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
        > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
        > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
        > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
        >
        > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
        > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
        > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
        > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
        > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
        > who believed in his name).
        >
        > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
        > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
        > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
        > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
        > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
        > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
        > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
        > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
        > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
        > the upper room as a new Sinai).
        >
        > Some food for thought, I trust.
        >
        > John Ronning
        > jronning@...
        >
        >
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        I d also be interested in a copy.   Jeffery Hodges Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ Doctoral Thesis: Food
        Message 3 of 28 , Apr 18 11:34 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          I'd also be interested in a copy.
           
          Jeffery Hodges

          Ewha Womans University
          Seoul, South Korea

          Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
          Sangbong-dong 1
          Jungnang-gu
          Seoul 131-771
          South Korea

          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@...> wrote:


          From: dean198 <dean198@...>
          Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM


          Dear John,
          I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
          Thanks
          Dean
          BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
          Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
          >
          > Greetings all,
          >
          > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
          > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
          > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
          > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
          > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
          > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
          > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
          > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
          > OT).
          >
          > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
          > Targums of the Pentateuch.
          >
          > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
          > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
          > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
          >
          > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
          > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
          > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
          > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
          > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
          > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
          > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
          > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
          > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
          > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
          > delivers from my hand."
          >
          > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
          > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
          > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
          > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
          > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
          > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
          > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
          > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
          > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
          >
          > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
          > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
          > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
          > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
          > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
          > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
          > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
          > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
          > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
          >
          > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
          > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
          > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
          > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
          > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
          > who believed in his name).
          >
          > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
          > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
          > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
          > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
          > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
          > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
          > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
          > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
          > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
          > the upper room as a new Sinai).
          >
          > Some food for thought, I trust.
          >
          > John Ronning
          > jronning@...
          >
          >
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >




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        • DanielMcGrady22@aol.com
          Hi John, I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of your paper. Many thanks, Danny McGrady In a message dated 18/04/2009
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 18 1:20 PM
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi John,

            I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
            your paper.

            Many thanks,

            Danny McGrady


            In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
            writes:

            Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
            > Targums of the Pentateuch.






            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tony Costa
            Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper as well. Best regards, Tony Costa _____ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 18 8:44 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper
              as well.



              Best regards,


              Tony Costa



              _____

              From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
              DanielMcGrady22@...
              Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:21 PM
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John









              Hi John,

              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
              your paper.

              Many thanks,

              Danny McGrady


              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
              <mailto:dean198%40yahoo.com> com
              writes:

              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
              > Targums of the Pentateuch.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Tom Butler
              Dean,   I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book. Tom Butler ... From: Horace
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 19 6:55 AM
              • 0 Attachment
                Dean,
                 
                I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book.

                Tom Butler

                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

                From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:34 AM








                I'd also be interested in a copy.
                 
                Jeffery Hodges

                Ewha Womans University
                Seoul, South Korea

                Blog: http://gypsyscholar ship.blogspot. com/

                Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                Sangbong-dong 1
                Jungnang-gu
                Seoul 131-771
                South Korea

                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com> wrote:

                From: dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com>
                Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM

                Dear John,
                I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                Thanks
                Dean
                BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                >
                > Greetings all,
                >
                > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                > OT).
                >
                > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                >
                > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                >
                > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                > delivers from my hand."
                >
                > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                >
                > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                >
                > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                > who believed in his name).
                >
                > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                >
                > Some food for thought, I trust.
                >
                > John Ronning
                > jronning@...
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >

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              • Don Garlington
                Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks. Don G. ... From: DanielMcGrady22@aol.com Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 19 11:20 AM
                • 0 Attachment
                  Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                  Don G.

                  --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...> wrote:
                  From: DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...>
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM



















                  Hi John,



                  I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of

                  your paper.



                  Many thanks,



                  Danny McGrady





                  In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo. com

                  writes:



                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum

                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing

                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 19 6:21 PM
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John:

                    I also would like a copy of your article.

                    Mark A. Matson
                    Academic Dean
                    Milligan College
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                    ________________________________

                    From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
                    Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




                    Hi John,

                    I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                    your paper.

                    Many thanks,

                    Danny McGrady


                    In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                    writes:

                    Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                    > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                    > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                    > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                    > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                    > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                    > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                    ------------------------------------

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • PHILLIPS P.M.
                    Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 20 1:10 AM
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Dear Dan

                      Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                      from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                      Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                      documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                      the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                      this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                      to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                      temple Judaism.

                      Pete

                      Pete Phillips
                      Director of Research
                      Centre for Biblical Literacy
                      St John's College, Durham, UK

                      ________________________________

                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
                      Garlington
                      Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                      Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                      Don G.

                      --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
                      <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
                      <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
                      From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
                      <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
                      Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                      Hi John,

                      I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                      of

                      your paper.

                      Many thanks,

                      Danny McGrady

                      In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                      com

                      writes:

                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                      Targum

                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                      publishing

                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jack Kilmon
                      ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 20 6:43 AM
                      • 0 Attachment
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


                        > Dear Dan
                        >
                        > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                        > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                        > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                        > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                        > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                        > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                        > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                        > temple Judaism.
                        >
                        > Pete
                        >
                        > Pete Phillips
                        > Director of Research
                        > Centre for Biblical Literacy
                        > St John's College, Durham, UK


                        Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
                        would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
                        Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
                        Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
                        an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
                        phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
                        your paper on the prologue.

                        Jack


                        Jack Kilmon
                        San Antonio, TX
                      • deanf4545
                        I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 20 3:50 PM
                        • 0 Attachment
                        • John Ronning
                          Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
                          Message 12 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Greetings Dean,

                            Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

                            Regards,

                            John Ronning




                            ________________________________
                            From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
                            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                            Dear John,
                            I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                            Thanks
                            Dean
                            BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                            Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                            --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                            >
                            > Greetings all,
                            >
                            > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                            > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                            > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                            > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                            > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                            > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                            > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                            > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                            > OT).
                            >
                            > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                            > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                            >
                            > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                            > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                            > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                            >
                            > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                            > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                            > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                            > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                            > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                            > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                            > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                            > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                            > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                            > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                            > delivers from my hand."
                            >
                            > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                            > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                            > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                            > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                            > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                            > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                            > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                            > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                            > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                            >
                            > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                            > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                            > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                            > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                            > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                            > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                            > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                            > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                            > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                            >
                            > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                            > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                            > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                            > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                            > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                            > who believed in his name).
                            >
                            > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                            > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                            > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                            > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                            > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                            > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                            > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                            > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                            > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                            > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                            >
                            > Some food for thought, I trust.
                            >
                            > John Ronning
                            > jronning@...
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >







                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • John Ronning
                            Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
                            Message 13 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Pete,

                              Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                              Briefly to your other q's:
                              The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                              From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                              Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                              Regards,

                              John Ronning




                              ________________________________
                              From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                              Dear Dan

                              Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                              from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                              Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                              documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                              the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                              this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                              to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                              temple Judaism.

                              Pete

                              Pete Phillips
                              Director of Research
                              Centre for Biblical Literacy
                              St John's College, Durham, UK

                              ____________ _________ _________ __

                              From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                              [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                              Garlington
                              Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                              To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                              Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                              Don G.

                              --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                              <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                              <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                              From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                              <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                              To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                              <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                              Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                              Hi John,

                              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                              of

                              your paper.

                              Many thanks,

                              Danny McGrady

                              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                              com

                              writes:

                              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                              Targum

                              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                              publishing

                              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                              > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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