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Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

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  • Jack Kilmon
    Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks. John? Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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      Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks.


      John?


      Jack Kilmon
      jkilmon@...


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:17 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


      > Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
      >
      > Jeffery Hodges
      >
      > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
      >
      > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
      > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
      > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM
      >
      > Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.
      >
      > Jack Kilmon
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message -----
      > From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
      > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
      > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
      >
      >
      >> I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
      >>
      >> Jeffery Hodges
      >>
      >> University Degrees:
      >>
      >> Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      >> (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
      > Gnostic Texts")
      >> M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      >> B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
      >>
      >> Email Address:
      >>
      >> jefferyhodges@...
      >>
      >> Blog:
      >>
      >> http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
      >>
      >> Office Address:
      >>
      >> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      >> School of English, Kyung Hee University
      >> 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
      >> Seoul, 130-701
      >> South Korea
      >>
      >> Home Address:
      >>
      >> Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      >> Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
      >> Sangbong-dong 1
      >> Jungnang-gu
      >> Seoul 131-771
      >> South Korea
      >>
      >> --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> From: jronning <jronning@...>
      >> Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
      >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
      >>
      >> Greetings all,
      >>
      >> Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
      >> possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
      >> expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
      > the
      >> Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
      >> the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
      >> continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
      > the
      >> last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
      >> really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
      >> OT).
      >>
      >> Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
      >> of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
      > Targum
      >> of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
      >> Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
      >> pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
      >> my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
      >> Targums of the Pentateuch.
      >>
      >> Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
      > other
      >> features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
      >> illuminating John. Some random examples:
      >>
      >> 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
      >> Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
      >> and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
      > am
      >> he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
      >> back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
      >> resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
      > of
      >> Deut
      >> 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
      > the
      >> living in
      >> this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
      >> "No
      >> one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
      > literal
      >> translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
      > one
      >> delivers from my hand."
      >>
      >> 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
      >> for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
      >> these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
      >> water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
      >> This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
      >> woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
      >> you,"
      >> to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
      >> well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
      >> conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
      >>
      >> 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
      > reference
      >> to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
      >> In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
      >> Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
      >> ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
      >> from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
      >> and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
      > sayings
      >> in
      >> John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
      > Isaiah
      >> (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
      >>
      >> 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
      >> not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
      >> how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
      >> done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
      > not
      >> believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
      >> who believed in his name).
      >>
      >> In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
      >> divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
      >> the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
      > God did
      >> in
      >> the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
      >> does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
      >> background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
      >> programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
      >> pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
      >> other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
      >> the upper room as a new Sinai).
      >>
      >> Some food for thought, I trust.
      >>
      >> John Ronning
      >> jronning@...
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
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      >> Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >> ------------------------------------
      >>
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      >> Links
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
      >
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      > Links
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      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
      >
      > ------------------------------------
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      > Links
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    • Jack Kilmon
      ... From: John Ronning To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


        > Greetings Tom,
        > A book for an article -- such a deal! I assume it would help if I gave you
        > a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone
        > coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
        > Regards in the Lord,
        > John Ronning


        John, everyone seems to be interested in your article. Perhaps uploading it
        to our file section will save you a lot of e-mailing.

        Jack Kilmon
      • Tom Butler
        John,    Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
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          John,
             Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for them).  A U.S. address would cut my mailing cost.  Thank you for the offer.
             Your brief description of your article and forthcoming book suggests that you and I may be on similar tracks.  I do not have any expertise in the study of the Targum, but I suspect that the Fourth Gospel may be a skillfully written Midrash of the Gospel story, an effort to write the Christian Gospel using the language of the Septuagint, perhaps even an effort to re-write (update?) the Torah in the light of Christ.  
             Specifically, I have suggested that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel use "signs" (words and symbols taken from the Septuagint - especially from the Torah) to show to initiated readers how Jesus systematically replaced every element of the Mosaic system of worship: the temple, the festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.  My book focuses on John 11, 12 and 13, what I call "the ordination trilogy," showing how Jesus replaced the priesthood with His own disciples, including Mary of Bethany, my candidate for the role of "Beloved Disciple," who is given a status equivalent to that of Peter (bishop) and entrusted with the task of maintaining the tradition of His death.
              Clearly I'm on unorthodox ground.  I'm always hoping that someone has traveled in similar territory and can enter into a scholarly dialogue with me regarding what I think I've found.  The contributors to this list include some who have been willing to venture for a short way in that direction with me.  I'm hoping you will be one too.
          In Christ's service,
          Tom Butler




          ----- Original Message ----
          From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:13:19 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


          Greetings Tom,
          A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
          Regards in the Lord,
          John Ronning

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@pacbell. net>
          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

          Dear John,
              I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
          Yours in Christ's service,
          Dr. Tom Butler
           

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

          Greetings all,

          Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
          possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
          expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
          Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
          the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
          continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
          last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
          really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
          OT).

          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
          of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
          of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
          Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
          pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
          my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
          Targums of the Pentateuch.

          Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
          features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
          illuminating John. Some random examples:

          1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
          Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
          and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
          he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
          back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
          resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
          32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
          this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
          one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
          translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
          delivers from my hand.."

          2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
          for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
          these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
          water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
          This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
          woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
          to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
          well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
          conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

          3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
          to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
          In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
          Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
          ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
          from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
          and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
          John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
          (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

          4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
          not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
          how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
          done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
          believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
          who believed in his name).

          In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
          divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
          the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
          the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
          does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
          background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
          programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
          pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
          other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
          the upper room as a new Sinai).

          Some food for thought, I trust.

          John Ronning
          jronning@yahoo. com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • dean198
          Dear John, I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very
          Message 4 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
          • 0 Attachment
            Dear John,
            I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
            Thanks
            Dean
            BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
            Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
            >
            > Greetings all,
            >
            > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
            > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
            > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
            > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
            > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
            > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
            > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
            > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
            > OT).
            >
            > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
            > Targums of the Pentateuch.
            >
            > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
            > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
            > illuminating John. Some random examples:
            >
            > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
            > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
            > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
            > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
            > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
            > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
            > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
            > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
            > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
            > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
            > delivers from my hand."
            >
            > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
            > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
            > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
            > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
            > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
            > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
            > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
            > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
            > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
            >
            > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
            > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
            > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
            > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
            > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
            > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
            > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
            > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
            > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
            >
            > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
            > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
            > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
            > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
            > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
            > who believed in his name).
            >
            > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
            > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
            > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
            > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
            > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
            > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
            > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
            > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
            > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
            > the upper room as a new Sinai).
            >
            > Some food for thought, I trust.
            >
            > John Ronning
            > jronning@...
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            I d also be interested in a copy.   Jeffery Hodges Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ Doctoral Thesis: Food
            Message 5 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
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              I'd also be interested in a copy.
               
              Jeffery Hodges

              Ewha Womans University
              Seoul, South Korea

              Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
              Sangbong-dong 1
              Jungnang-gu
              Seoul 131-771
              South Korea

              --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@...> wrote:


              From: dean198 <dean198@...>
              Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM


              Dear John,
              I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
              Thanks
              Dean
              BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
              Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
              >
              > Greetings all,
              >
              > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
              > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
              > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
              > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
              > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
              > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
              > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
              > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
              > OT).
              >
              > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
              > Targums of the Pentateuch.
              >
              > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
              > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
              > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
              >
              > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
              > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
              > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
              > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
              > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
              > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
              > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
              > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
              > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
              > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
              > delivers from my hand."
              >
              > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
              > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
              > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
              > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
              > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
              > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
              > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
              > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
              > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
              >
              > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
              > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
              > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
              > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
              > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
              > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
              > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
              > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
              > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
              >
              > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
              > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
              > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
              > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
              > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
              > who believed in his name).
              >
              > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
              > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
              > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
              > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
              > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
              > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
              > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
              > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
              > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
              > the upper room as a new Sinai).
              >
              > Some food for thought, I trust.
              >
              > John Ronning
              > jronning@...
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >




              ------------------------------------

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • DanielMcGrady22@aol.com
              Hi John, I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of your paper. Many thanks, Danny McGrady In a message dated 18/04/2009
              Message 6 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi John,

                I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                your paper.

                Many thanks,

                Danny McGrady


                In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                writes:

                Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Tony Costa
                Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper as well. Best regards, Tony Costa _____ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Message 7 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                • 0 Attachment
                  Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper
                  as well.



                  Best regards,


                  Tony Costa



                  _____

                  From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                  DanielMcGrady22@...
                  Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:21 PM
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John









                  Hi John,

                  I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                  your paper.

                  Many thanks,

                  Danny McGrady


                  In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                  <mailto:dean198%40yahoo.com> com
                  writes:

                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Tom Butler
                  Dean,   I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book. Tom Butler ... From: Horace
                  Message 8 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Dean,
                     
                    I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book.

                    Tom Butler

                    --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

                    From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:34 AM








                    I'd also be interested in a copy.
                     
                    Jeffery Hodges

                    Ewha Womans University
                    Seoul, South Korea

                    Blog: http://gypsyscholar ship.blogspot. com/

                    Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                    Home Address:

                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                    Sangbong-dong 1
                    Jungnang-gu
                    Seoul 131-771
                    South Korea

                    --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com> wrote:

                    From: dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com>
                    Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                    To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                    Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM

                    Dear John,
                    I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                    Thanks
                    Dean
                    BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                    Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                    --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                    >
                    > Greetings all,
                    >
                    > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                    > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                    > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                    > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                    > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                    > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                    > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                    > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                    > OT).
                    >
                    > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                    > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                    > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                    > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                    > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                    > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                    > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                    >
                    > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                    > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                    > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                    >
                    > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                    > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                    > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                    > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                    > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                    > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                    > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                    > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                    > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                    > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                    > delivers from my hand."
                    >
                    > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                    > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                    > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                    > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                    > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                    > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                    > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                    > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                    > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                    >
                    > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                    > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                    > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                    > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                    > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                    > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                    > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                    > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                    > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                    >
                    > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                    > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                    > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                    > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                    > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                    > who believed in his name).
                    >
                    > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                    > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                    > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                    > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                    > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                    > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                    > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                    > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                    > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                    > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                    >
                    > Some food for thought, I trust.
                    >
                    > John Ronning
                    > jronning@...
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    >

                    ------------ --------- --------- ------

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Don Garlington
                    Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks. Don G. ... From: DanielMcGrady22@aol.com Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                      Don G.

                      --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...> wrote:
                      From: DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...>
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM



















                      Hi John,



                      I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of

                      your paper.



                      Many thanks,



                      Danny McGrady





                      In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo. com

                      writes:



                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum

                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing

                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                      John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                      • 0 Attachment
                        John:

                        I also would like a copy of your article.

                        Mark A. Matson
                        Academic Dean
                        Milligan College
                        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                        ________________________________

                        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
                        Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




                        Hi John,

                        I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                        your paper.

                        Many thanks,

                        Danny McGrady


                        In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                        writes:

                        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                        ------------------------------------

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                        UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • PHILLIPS P.M.
                        Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Dear Dan

                          Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                          from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                          Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                          documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                          the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                          this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                          to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                          temple Judaism.

                          Pete

                          Pete Phillips
                          Director of Research
                          Centre for Biblical Literacy
                          St John's College, Durham, UK

                          ________________________________

                          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
                          Garlington
                          Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                          Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                          Don G.

                          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
                          <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
                          <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
                          From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
                          <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
                          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                          Hi John,

                          I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                          of

                          your paper.

                          Many thanks,

                          Danny McGrady

                          In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                          com

                          writes:

                          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                          Targum

                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                          publishing

                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jack Kilmon
                          ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
                            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
                            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


                            > Dear Dan
                            >
                            > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                            > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                            > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                            > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                            > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                            > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                            > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                            > temple Judaism.
                            >
                            > Pete
                            >
                            > Pete Phillips
                            > Director of Research
                            > Centre for Biblical Literacy
                            > St John's College, Durham, UK


                            Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
                            would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
                            Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
                            Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
                            an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
                            phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
                            your paper on the prologue.

                            Jack


                            Jack Kilmon
                            San Antonio, TX
                          • deanf4545
                            I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                            • 0 Attachment
                            • John Ronning
                              Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
                              Message 14 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                              • 0 Attachment
                                Greetings Dean,

                                Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

                                Regards,

                                John Ronning




                                ________________________________
                                From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
                                Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                Dear John,
                                I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                Thanks
                                Dean
                                BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                >
                                > Greetings all,
                                >
                                > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                > OT).
                                >
                                > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                >
                                > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                >
                                > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                > delivers from my hand."
                                >
                                > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                >
                                > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                >
                                > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                > who believed in his name).
                                >
                                > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                >
                                > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                >
                                > John Ronning
                                > jronning@...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >







                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John Ronning
                                Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
                                Message 15 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Pete,

                                  Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                                  Briefly to your other q's:
                                  The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                                  From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                                  Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                                  Regards,

                                  John Ronning




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                  Dear Dan

                                  Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                  from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                  Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                  documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                  the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                  this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                  to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                  temple Judaism.

                                  Pete

                                  Pete Phillips
                                  Director of Research
                                  Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                  St John's College, Durham, UK

                                  ____________ _________ _________ __

                                  From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                  [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                                  Garlington
                                  Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                  To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                                  Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                  Don G.

                                  --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                  <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                  <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                                  From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                                  <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                  To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                  <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                  Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                  Hi John,

                                  I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                  of

                                  your paper.

                                  Many thanks,

                                  Danny McGrady

                                  In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                  com

                                  writes:

                                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                  Targum

                                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                  publishing

                                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.

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