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Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

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  • johannine_lit
    Hi there, I d also like to receive a copy of the article please. Jonathan Brown Union Theological College Belfast
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
      Hi there, I'd also like to receive a copy of the article please.

      Jonathan Brown
      Union Theological College
      Belfast
    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      I would like a copy. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm ________________________________
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
        I would like a copy.

        Mark A. Matson
        Academic Dean
        Milligan College
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

        ________________________________

        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jronning
        Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 8:28 AM
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John



        Greetings all,

        Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
        possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
        expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
        Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
        the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
        continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
        last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
        really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
        OT).

        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
        of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
        of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
        Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
        pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
        my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
        Targums of the Pentateuch.

        Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
        features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
        illuminating John. Some random examples:

        1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
        Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
        and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
        he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
        back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
        resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
        32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
        this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
        one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
        translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
        delivers from my hand."

        2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
        for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
        these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
        water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
        This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
        woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
        to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
        well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
        conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

        3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
        to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
        In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
        Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
        ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
        from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
        and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
        John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
        (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

        4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
        not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
        how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
        done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
        believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
        who believed in his name).

        In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
        divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
        the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
        the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
        does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
        background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
        programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
        pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
        other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
        the upper room as a new Sinai).

        Some food for thought, I trust.

        John Ronning
        jronning@...



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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      • John Ronning
        Greetings Tom, A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I m in South Africa but could have it brought by
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
          Greetings Tom,
          A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
          Regards in the Lord,
          John Ronning


          ----- Original Message ----
          From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


          Dear John,
              I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
          Yours in Christ's service,
          Dr. Tom Butler
           

          ----- Original Message ----
          From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

          Greetings all,

          Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
          possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
          expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
          Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
          the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
          continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
          last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
          really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
          OT).

          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
          of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
          of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
          Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
          pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
          my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
          Targums of the Pentateuch.

          Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
          features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
          illuminating John. Some random examples:

          1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
          Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
          and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
          he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
          back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
          resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
          32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
          this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
          one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
          translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
          delivers from my hand.."

          2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
          for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
          these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
          water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
          This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
          woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
          to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
          well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
          conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

          3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
          to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
          In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
          Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
          ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
          from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
          and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
          John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
          (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

          4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
          not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
          how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
          done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
          believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
          who believed in his name).

          In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
          divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
          the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
          the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
          does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
          background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
          programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
          pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
          other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
          the upper room as a new Sinai).

          Some food for thought, I trust.

          John Ronning
          jronning@yahoo. com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jeffrey B. Gibson
          Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the quotation not just of the
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
            Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out
            protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the
            quotation not just of the entirety of a message one is responding to,
            but of a string of messages.

            PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
            necessary to give your message its proper context.

            Those who do not snip their posts according to protocols will be placed
            on moderated status and their messages that contain excessive quotes
            will be rejected.

            Jeffrey Gibson

            *********

            John Ronning wrote:
            > Greetings Tom,
            > A book for an article -- such a deal!� I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
            > Regards in the Lord,
            > John Ronning
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
            > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
            >
            >
            > Dear John,
            > ��� I would very much like to read your article.� If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my�e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .�� FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.� It is�called�Let Her�Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).� In return for the opportunity to read� your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
            > Yours in Christ's service,
            > Dr. Tom Butler
            > �
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
            > To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
            > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
            > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
            >
            > Greetings all,
            >
            > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
            > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
            > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
            > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
            > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
            > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
            > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
            > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
            > OT).
            >
            > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
            > Targums of the Pentateuch.
            >
            > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
            > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
            > illuminating John. Some random examples:
            >
            > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
            > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
            > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
            > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
            > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
            > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
            > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
            > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
            > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
            > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
            > delivers from my hand.."
            >
            > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
            > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
            > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
            > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
            > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
            > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
            > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
            > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
            > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
            >
            > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
            > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
            > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
            > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
            > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
            > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
            > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
            > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
            > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
            >
            > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
            > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
            > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
            > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
            > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
            > who believed in his name).
            >
            > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
            > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
            > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
            > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
            > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
            > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
            > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
            > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
            > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
            > the upper room as a new Sinai).
            >
            > Some food for thought, I trust.
            >
            > John Ronning
            > jronning@yahoo. com
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            > ------------------------------------
            >
            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >


            --
            Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
            1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
            Chicago, Illinois
            e-mail jgibson000@...
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.   Jeffery Hodges ... From: Jack Kilmon Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
              Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
               
              Jeffery Hodges

              --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

              From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM

              Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.

              Jack Kilmon


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


              > I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
              >
              > Jeffery Hodges
              >
              > University Degrees:
              >
              > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
              Gnostic Texts")
              > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
              >
              > Email Address:
              >
              > jefferyhodges@...
              >
              > Blog:
              >
              > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
              >
              > Office Address:
              >
              > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              > School of English, Kyung Hee University
              > 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
              > Seoul, 130-701
              > South Korea
              >
              > Home Address:
              >
              > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              > Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
              > Sangbong-dong 1
              > Jungnang-gu
              > Seoul 131-771
              > South Korea
              >
              > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: jronning <jronning@...>
              > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
              > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
              >
              > Greetings all,
              >
              > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
              > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
              > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
              the
              > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
              > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
              > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
              the
              > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
              > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
              > OT).
              >
              > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
              Targum
              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
              > Targums of the Pentateuch.
              >
              > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
              other
              > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
              > illuminating John. Some random examples:
              >
              > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
              > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
              > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
              am
              > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
              > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
              > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
              of
              > Deut
              > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
              the
              > living in
              > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
              > "No
              > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
              literal
              > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
              one
              > delivers from my hand."
              >
              > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
              > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
              > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
              > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
              > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
              > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
              > you,"
              > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
              > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
              > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
              >
              > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
              reference
              > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
              > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
              > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
              > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
              > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
              > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
              sayings
              > in
              > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
              Isaiah
              > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
              >
              > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
              > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
              > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
              > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
              not
              > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
              > who believed in his name).
              >
              > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
              > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
              > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
              God did
              > in
              > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
              > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
              > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
              > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
              > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
              > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
              > the upper room as a new Sinai).
              >
              > Some food for thought, I trust.
              >
              > John Ronning
              > jronning@...
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              > ------------------------------------
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
              > Links
              >
              >
              >
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              >
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            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:   PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is necessary to give your message its proper context.     My
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                 

                "PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
                necessary to give your message its proper context."
                 
                 
                My apologies, Jeffrey. I just realized that I'm twice one of the guilty parties.
                 
                 
                Jeffery Hodges

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jack Kilmon
                Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks. John? Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                  Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks.


                  John?


                  Jack Kilmon
                  jkilmon@...


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:17 PM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                  > Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
                  >
                  > Jeffery Hodges
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                  > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM
                  >
                  > Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.
                  >
                  > Jack Kilmon
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                  > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                  >
                  >
                  >> I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                  >>
                  >> Jeffery Hodges
                  >>
                  >> University Degrees:
                  >>
                  >> Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  >> (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
                  > Gnostic Texts")
                  >> M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  >> B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                  >>
                  >> Email Address:
                  >>
                  >> jefferyhodges@...
                  >>
                  >> Blog:
                  >>
                  >> http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                  >>
                  >> Office Address:
                  >>
                  >> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  >> School of English, Kyung Hee University
                  >> 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                  >> Seoul, 130-701
                  >> South Korea
                  >>
                  >> Home Address:
                  >>
                  >> Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  >> Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                  >> Sangbong-dong 1
                  >> Jungnang-gu
                  >> Seoul 131-771
                  >> South Korea
                  >>
                  >> --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> From: jronning <jronning@...>
                  >> Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                  >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                  >>
                  >> Greetings all,
                  >>
                  >> Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                  >> possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                  >> expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
                  > the
                  >> Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                  >> the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                  >> continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
                  > the
                  >> last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                  >> really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                  >> OT).
                  >>
                  >> Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                  >> of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                  > Targum
                  >> of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                  >> Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                  >> pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                  >> my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                  >> Targums of the Pentateuch.
                  >>
                  >> Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
                  > other
                  >> features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                  >> illuminating John. Some random examples:
                  >>
                  >> 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                  >> Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                  >> and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
                  > am
                  >> he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                  >> back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                  >> resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
                  > of
                  >> Deut
                  >> 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
                  > the
                  >> living in
                  >> this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                  >> "No
                  >> one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
                  > literal
                  >> translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
                  > one
                  >> delivers from my hand."
                  >>
                  >> 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                  >> for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                  >> these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                  >> water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                  >> This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                  >> woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                  >> you,"
                  >> to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                  >> well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                  >> conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                  >>
                  >> 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
                  > reference
                  >> to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                  >> In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                  >> Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                  >> ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                  >> from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                  >> and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
                  > sayings
                  >> in
                  >> John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
                  > Isaiah
                  >> (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                  >>
                  >> 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                  >> not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                  >> how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                  >> done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
                  > not
                  >> believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                  >> who believed in his name).
                  >>
                  >> In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                  >> divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                  >> the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
                  > God did
                  >> in
                  >> the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                  >> does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                  >> background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                  >> programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                  >> pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                  >> other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                  >> the upper room as a new Sinai).
                  >>
                  >> Some food for thought, I trust.
                  >>
                  >> John Ronning
                  >> jronning@...
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                  >> Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ------------------------------------
                  >>
                  >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >> Links
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                  > Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                  > Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: John Ronning To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                    > Greetings Tom,
                    > A book for an article -- such a deal! I assume it would help if I gave you
                    > a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone
                    > coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                    > Regards in the Lord,
                    > John Ronning


                    John, everyone seems to be interested in your article. Perhaps uploading it
                    to our file section will save you a lot of e-mailing.

                    Jack Kilmon
                  • Tom Butler
                    John,    Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
                      John,
                         Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for them).  A U.S. address would cut my mailing cost.  Thank you for the offer.
                         Your brief description of your article and forthcoming book suggests that you and I may be on similar tracks.  I do not have any expertise in the study of the Targum, but I suspect that the Fourth Gospel may be a skillfully written Midrash of the Gospel story, an effort to write the Christian Gospel using the language of the Septuagint, perhaps even an effort to re-write (update?) the Torah in the light of Christ.  
                         Specifically, I have suggested that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel use "signs" (words and symbols taken from the Septuagint - especially from the Torah) to show to initiated readers how Jesus systematically replaced every element of the Mosaic system of worship: the temple, the festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.  My book focuses on John 11, 12 and 13, what I call "the ordination trilogy," showing how Jesus replaced the priesthood with His own disciples, including Mary of Bethany, my candidate for the role of "Beloved Disciple," who is given a status equivalent to that of Peter (bishop) and entrusted with the task of maintaining the tradition of His death.
                          Clearly I'm on unorthodox ground.  I'm always hoping that someone has traveled in similar territory and can enter into a scholarly dialogue with me regarding what I think I've found.  The contributors to this list include some who have been willing to venture for a short way in that direction with me.  I'm hoping you will be one too.
                      In Christ's service,
                      Tom Butler




                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:13:19 PM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                      Greetings Tom,
                      A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                      Regards in the Lord,
                      John Ronning

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@pacbell. net>
                      To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                      Dear John,
                          I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                      Yours in Christ's service,
                      Dr. Tom Butler
                       

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                      To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                      Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                      Greetings all,

                      Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                      possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                      expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                      Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                      the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                      continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                      last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                      really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                      OT).

                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                      of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                      of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                      Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                      pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                      my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                      Targums of the Pentateuch.

                      Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                      features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                      illuminating John. Some random examples:

                      1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                      Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                      and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                      he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                      back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                      resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                      32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                      this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                      one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                      translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                      delivers from my hand.."

                      2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                      for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                      these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                      water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                      This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                      woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                      to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                      well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                      conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                      3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                      to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                      In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                      Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                      ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                      from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                      and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                      John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                      (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                      4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                      not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                      how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                      done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                      believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                      who believed in his name).

                      In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                      divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                      the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                      the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                      does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                      background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                      programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                      pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                      other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                      the upper room as a new Sinai).

                      Some food for thought, I trust.

                      John Ronning
                      jronning@yahoo. com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • dean198
                      Dear John, I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very
                      Message 10 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                        Dear John,
                        I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                        Thanks
                        Dean
                        BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                        Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Greetings all,
                        >
                        > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                        > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                        > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                        > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                        > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                        > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                        > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                        > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                        > OT).
                        >
                        > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                        >
                        > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                        > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                        > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                        >
                        > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                        > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                        > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                        > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                        > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                        > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                        > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                        > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                        > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                        > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                        > delivers from my hand."
                        >
                        > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                        > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                        > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                        > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                        > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                        > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                        > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                        > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                        > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                        >
                        > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                        > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                        > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                        > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                        > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                        > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                        > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                        > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                        > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                        >
                        > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                        > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                        > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                        > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                        > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                        > who believed in his name).
                        >
                        > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                        > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                        > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                        > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                        > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                        > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                        > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                        > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                        > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                        > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                        >
                        > Some food for thought, I trust.
                        >
                        > John Ronning
                        > jronning@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        I d also be interested in a copy.   Jeffery Hodges Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ Doctoral Thesis: Food
                        Message 11 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                          I'd also be interested in a copy.
                           
                          Jeffery Hodges

                          Ewha Womans University
                          Seoul, South Korea

                          Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                          Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                          Home Address:

                          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                          Sangbong-dong 1
                          Jungnang-gu
                          Seoul 131-771
                          South Korea

                          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@...> wrote:


                          From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                          Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM


                          Dear John,
                          I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                          Thanks
                          Dean
                          BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                          Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Greetings all,
                          >
                          > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                          > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                          > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                          > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                          > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                          > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                          > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                          > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                          > OT).
                          >
                          > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                          >
                          > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                          > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                          > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                          >
                          > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                          > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                          > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                          > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                          > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                          > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                          > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                          > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                          > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                          > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                          > delivers from my hand."
                          >
                          > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                          > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                          > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                          > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                          > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                          > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                          > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                          > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                          > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                          >
                          > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                          > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                          > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                          > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                          > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                          > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                          > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                          > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                          > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                          >
                          > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                          > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                          > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                          > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                          > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                          > who believed in his name).
                          >
                          > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                          > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                          > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                          > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                          > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                          > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                          > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                          > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                          > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                          > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                          >
                          > Some food for thought, I trust.
                          >
                          > John Ronning
                          > jronning@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >




                          ------------------------------------

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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • DanielMcGrady22@aol.com
                          Hi John, I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of your paper. Many thanks, Danny McGrady In a message dated 18/04/2009
                          Message 12 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                            Hi John,

                            I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                            your paper.

                            Many thanks,

                            Danny McGrady


                            In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                            writes:

                            Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                            > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Tony Costa
                            Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper as well. Best regards, Tony Costa _____ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Message 13 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                              Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper
                              as well.



                              Best regards,


                              Tony Costa



                              _____

                              From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                              [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                              DanielMcGrady22@...
                              Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:21 PM
                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John









                              Hi John,

                              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                              your paper.

                              Many thanks,

                              Danny McGrady


                              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                              <mailto:dean198%40yahoo.com> com
                              writes:

                              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                              > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Tom Butler
                              Dean,   I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book. Tom Butler ... From: Horace
                              Message 14 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                Dean,
                                 
                                I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book.

                                Tom Butler

                                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

                                From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:34 AM








                                I'd also be interested in a copy.
                                 
                                Jeffery Hodges

                                Ewha Womans University
                                Seoul, South Korea

                                Blog: http://gypsyscholar ship.blogspot. com/

                                Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                Home Address:

                                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                                Sangbong-dong 1
                                Jungnang-gu
                                Seoul 131-771
                                South Korea

                                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                From: dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com>
                                Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM

                                Dear John,
                                I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                Thanks
                                Dean
                                BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                >
                                > Greetings all,
                                >
                                > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                > OT).
                                >
                                > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                >
                                > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                                >
                                > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                                > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                > delivers from my hand."
                                >
                                > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                                > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                >
                                > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                >
                                > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                > who believed in his name).
                                >
                                > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                                > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                                > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                >
                                > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                >
                                > John Ronning
                                > jronning@...
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                >

                                ------------ --------- --------- ------

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                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • Don Garlington
                                Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks. Don G. ... From: DanielMcGrady22@aol.com Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                  Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                  Don G.

                                  --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...> wrote:
                                  From: DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...>
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                  Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM



















                                  Hi John,



                                  I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of

                                  your paper.



                                  Many thanks,



                                  Danny McGrady





                                  In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo. com

                                  writes:



                                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum

                                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing

                                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                                  John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                    John:

                                    I also would like a copy of your article.

                                    Mark A. Matson
                                    Academic Dean
                                    Milligan College
                                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                                    ________________________________

                                    From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
                                    Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
                                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




                                    Hi John,

                                    I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                    your paper.

                                    Many thanks,

                                    Danny McGrady


                                    In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                                    writes:

                                    Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                    > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                    > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                    > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                    > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                    > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                    > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                    ------------------------------------

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                                    UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • PHILLIPS P.M.
                                    Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                      Dear Dan

                                      Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                      from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                      Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                      documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                      the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                      this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                      to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                      temple Judaism.

                                      Pete

                                      Pete Phillips
                                      Director of Research
                                      Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                      St John's College, Durham, UK

                                      ________________________________

                                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
                                      Garlington
                                      Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                      Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                      Don G.

                                      --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
                                      <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
                                      <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
                                      From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
                                      <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
                                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
                                      Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                      Hi John,

                                      I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                      of

                                      your paper.

                                      Many thanks,

                                      Danny McGrady

                                      In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                      com

                                      writes:

                                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                      Targum

                                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                      publishing

                                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jack Kilmon
                                      ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
                                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
                                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


                                        > Dear Dan
                                        >
                                        > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                        > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                        > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                        > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                        > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                        > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                        > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                        > temple Judaism.
                                        >
                                        > Pete
                                        >
                                        > Pete Phillips
                                        > Director of Research
                                        > Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                        > St John's College, Durham, UK


                                        Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
                                        would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
                                        Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
                                        Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
                                        an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
                                        phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
                                        your paper on the prologue.

                                        Jack


                                        Jack Kilmon
                                        San Antonio, TX
                                      • deanf4545
                                        I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                        • John Ronning
                                          Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
                                          Message 20 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                                            Greetings Dean,

                                            Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

                                            Regards,

                                            John Ronning




                                            ________________________________
                                            From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                            Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
                                            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                            Dear John,
                                            I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                            Thanks
                                            Dean
                                            BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                            Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                            --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Greetings all,
                                            >
                                            > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                            > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                            > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                            > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                            > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                            > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                            > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                            > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                            > OT).
                                            >
                                            > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                            > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                            >
                                            > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                            > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                            > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                            >
                                            > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                            > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                            > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                            > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                            > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                            > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                            > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                            > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                            > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                            > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                            > delivers from my hand."
                                            >
                                            > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                            > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                            > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                            > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                            > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                            > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                            > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                            > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                            > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                            >
                                            > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                            > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                            > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                            > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                            > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                            > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                            > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                            > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                            > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                            >
                                            > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                            > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                            > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                            > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                            > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                            > who believed in his name).
                                            >
                                            > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                            > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                            > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                            > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                            > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                            > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                            > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                            > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                            > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                            > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                            >
                                            > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                            >
                                            > John Ronning
                                            > jronning@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >







                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • John Ronning
                                            Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
                                            Message 21 of 28 , May 25, 2009
                                              Pete,

                                              Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                                              Briefly to your other q's:
                                              The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                                              From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                                              Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                                              Regards,

                                              John Ronning




                                              ________________________________
                                              From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                              Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                                              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                              Dear Dan

                                              Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                              from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                              Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                              documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                              the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                              this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                              to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                              temple Judaism.

                                              Pete

                                              Pete Phillips
                                              Director of Research
                                              Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                              St John's College, Durham, UK

                                              ____________ _________ _________ __

                                              From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                              [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                                              Garlington
                                              Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                              To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                                              Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                              Don G.

                                              --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                              <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                              <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                                              From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                                              <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                              To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                              <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                              Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                              Hi John,

                                              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                              of

                                              your paper.

                                              Many thanks,

                                              Danny McGrady

                                              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                              com

                                              writes:

                                              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                              Targum

                                              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                              publishing

                                              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                              > Targums of the Pentateuch.

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