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Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

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  • celucien joseph
    Hello John, � Thanks for illuminating us concerning this important matter. Can you email me the paper? I ll appreciate it. � Sincerely, � Celucien Joseph
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
      Hello John,
      �
      Thanks for illuminating us concerning this important matter. Can you email me the paper? I'll appreciate it.
      �
      Sincerely,
      �
      Celucien Joseph
      PhD candidate (NT) Bangor University
    • Tony Costa
      Dear John, I would appreciate a copy of your article, it sounds very interesting. Rev. Tony Costa, PhD (cand) University of Pretoria
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
        Dear John, I would appreciate a copy of your article, it sounds very interesting.

        Rev. Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
        University of Pretoria
      • Tom Butler
        Dear John,     I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address:
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
          Dear John,
              I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@... .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
          Yours in Christ's service,
          Dr. Tom Butler
           



          ----- Original Message ----
          From: jronning <jronning@...>
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


          Greetings all,

          Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
          possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
          expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
          Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
          the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
          continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
          last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
          really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
          OT).

          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
          of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
          of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
          Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
          pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
          my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
          Targums of the Pentateuch.

          Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
          features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
          illuminating John. Some random examples:

          1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
          Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
          and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
          he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
          back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
          resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
          32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
          this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
          one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
          translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
          delivers from my hand."

          2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
          for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
          these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
          water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
          This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
          woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
          to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
          well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
          conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

          3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
          to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
          In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
          Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
          ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
          from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
          and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
          John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
          (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

          4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
          not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
          how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
          done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
          believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
          who believed in his name).

          In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
          divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
          the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
          the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
          does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
          background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
          programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
          pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
          other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
          the upper room as a new Sinai).

          Some food for thought, I trust.

          John Ronning
          jronning@yahoo. com

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • McGrath, James
          Let me also add my name to the list of those interested in reading your article, John! James
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
            Let me also add my name to the list of those interested in reading your article, John!

            James



            ***************************************************************************************************************

            Dr. James F. McGrath Tel. (317) 940-9364

            Associate Professor of Religion e-mail: jfmcgrat@...<mailto:jfmcgrat@...>

            Butler University, 4600 Sunset Avenue http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/

            Indianapolis, IN 46208 http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com<http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/>

            ***************************************************************************************************************







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • johannine_lit
            Hi there, I d also like to receive a copy of the article please. Jonathan Brown Union Theological College Belfast
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
              Hi there, I'd also like to receive a copy of the article please.

              Jonathan Brown
              Union Theological College
              Belfast
            • Jack Kilmon
              Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy. Jack Kilmon ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.

                Jack Kilmon


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                > I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                >
                > Jeffery Hodges
                >
                > University Degrees:
                >
                > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                >
                > Email Address:
                >
                > jefferyhodges@...
                >
                > Blog:
                >
                > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                >
                > Office Address:
                >
                > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                > School of English, Kyung Hee University
                > 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                > Seoul, 130-701
                > South Korea
                >
                > Home Address:
                >
                > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                > Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                > Sangbong-dong 1
                > Jungnang-gu
                > Seoul 131-771
                > South Korea
                >
                > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                >
                > From: jronning <jronning@...>
                > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                >
                > Greetings all,
                >
                > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                > OT).
                >
                > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                >
                > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                >
                > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of
                > Deut
                > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the
                > living in
                > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                > "No
                > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                > delivers from my hand."
                >
                > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                > you,"
                > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                >
                > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings
                > in
                > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                >
                > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                > who believed in his name).
                >
                > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did
                > in
                > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                >
                > Some food for thought, I trust.
                >
                > John Ronning
                > jronning@...
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
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                > Links
                >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                >
                >
                > ------------------------------------
                >
                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                > Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                I would like a copy. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm ________________________________
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                  I would like a copy.

                  Mark A. Matson
                  Academic Dean
                  Milligan College
                  http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                  ________________________________

                  From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jronning
                  Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 8:28 AM
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John



                  Greetings all,

                  Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                  possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                  expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                  Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                  the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                  continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                  last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                  really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                  OT).

                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                  of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                  of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                  Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                  pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                  my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                  Targums of the Pentateuch.

                  Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                  features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                  illuminating John. Some random examples:

                  1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                  Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                  and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                  he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                  back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                  resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                  32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                  this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                  one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                  translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                  delivers from my hand."

                  2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                  for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                  these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                  water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                  This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                  woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                  to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                  well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                  conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                  3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                  to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                  In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                  Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                  ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                  from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                  and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                  John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                  (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                  4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                  not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                  how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                  done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                  believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                  who believed in his name).

                  In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                  divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                  the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                  the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                  does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                  background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                  programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                  pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                  other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                  the upper room as a new Sinai).

                  Some food for thought, I trust.

                  John Ronning
                  jronning@...



                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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                • John Ronning
                  Greetings Tom, A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I m in South Africa but could have it brought by
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                    Greetings Tom,
                    A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                    Regards in the Lord,
                    John Ronning


                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                    Dear John,
                        I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                    Yours in Christ's service,
                    Dr. Tom Butler
                     

                    ----- Original Message ----
                    From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                    To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                    Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                    Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                    Greetings all,

                    Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                    possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                    expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                    Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                    the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                    continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                    last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                    really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                    OT).

                    Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                    of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                    of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                    Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                    pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                    my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                    Targums of the Pentateuch.

                    Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                    features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                    illuminating John. Some random examples:

                    1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                    Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                    and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                    he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                    back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                    resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                    32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                    this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                    one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                    translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                    delivers from my hand.."

                    2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                    for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                    these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                    water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                    This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                    woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                    to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                    well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                    conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                    3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                    to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                    In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                    Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                    ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                    from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                    and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                    John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                    (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                    4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                    not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                    how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                    done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                    believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                    who believed in his name).

                    In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                    divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                    the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                    the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                    does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                    background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                    programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                    pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                    other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                    the upper room as a new Sinai).

                    Some food for thought, I trust.

                    John Ronning
                    jronning@yahoo. com

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                    Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the quotation not just of the
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                      Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out
                      protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the
                      quotation not just of the entirety of a message one is responding to,
                      but of a string of messages.

                      PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
                      necessary to give your message its proper context.

                      Those who do not snip their posts according to protocols will be placed
                      on moderated status and their messages that contain excessive quotes
                      will be rejected.

                      Jeffrey Gibson

                      *********

                      John Ronning wrote:
                      > Greetings Tom,
                      > A book for an article -- such a deal!� I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                      > Regards in the Lord,
                      > John Ronning
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
                      > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                      >
                      >
                      > Dear John,
                      > ��� I would very much like to read your article.� If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my�e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .�� FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.� It is�called�Let Her�Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).� In return for the opportunity to read� your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                      > Yours in Christ's service,
                      > Dr. Tom Butler
                      > �
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message ----
                      > From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                      > To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                      > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                      > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                      >
                      > Greetings all,
                      >
                      > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                      > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                      > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                      > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                      > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                      > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                      > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                      > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                      > OT).
                      >
                      > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                      >
                      > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                      > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                      > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                      >
                      > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                      > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                      > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                      > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                      > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                      > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                      > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                      > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                      > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                      > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                      > delivers from my hand.."
                      >
                      > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                      > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                      > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                      > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                      > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                      > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                      > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                      > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                      > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                      >
                      > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                      > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                      > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                      > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                      > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                      > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                      > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                      > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                      > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                      >
                      > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                      > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                      > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                      > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                      > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                      > who believed in his name).
                      >
                      > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                      > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                      > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                      > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                      > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                      > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                      > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                      > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                      > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                      > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                      >
                      > Some food for thought, I trust.
                      >
                      > John Ronning
                      > jronning@yahoo. com
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      > ------------------------------------
                      >
                      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      --
                      Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                      1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                      Chicago, Illinois
                      e-mail jgibson000@...
                    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.   Jeffery Hodges ... From: Jack Kilmon Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                        Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
                         
                        Jeffery Hodges

                        --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

                        From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM

                        Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.

                        Jack Kilmon


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                        > I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                        >
                        > Jeffery Hodges
                        >
                        > University Degrees:
                        >
                        > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                        > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
                        Gnostic Texts")
                        > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                        > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                        >
                        > Email Address:
                        >
                        > jefferyhodges@...
                        >
                        > Blog:
                        >
                        > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                        >
                        > Office Address:
                        >
                        > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        > School of English, Kyung Hee University
                        > 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                        > Seoul, 130-701
                        > South Korea
                        >
                        > Home Address:
                        >
                        > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        > Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                        > Sangbong-dong 1
                        > Jungnang-gu
                        > Seoul 131-771
                        > South Korea
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: jronning <jronning@...>
                        > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                        >
                        > Greetings all,
                        >
                        > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                        > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                        > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
                        the
                        > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                        > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                        > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
                        the
                        > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                        > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                        > OT).
                        >
                        > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                        Targum
                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                        >
                        > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
                        other
                        > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                        > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                        >
                        > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                        > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                        > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
                        am
                        > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                        > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                        > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
                        of
                        > Deut
                        > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
                        the
                        > living in
                        > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                        > "No
                        > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
                        literal
                        > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
                        one
                        > delivers from my hand."
                        >
                        > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                        > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                        > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                        > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                        > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                        > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                        > you,"
                        > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                        > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                        > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                        >
                        > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
                        reference
                        > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                        > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                        > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                        > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                        > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                        > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
                        sayings
                        > in
                        > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
                        Isaiah
                        > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                        >
                        > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                        > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                        > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                        > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
                        not
                        > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                        > who believed in his name).
                        >
                        > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                        > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                        > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
                        God did
                        > in
                        > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                        > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                        > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                        > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                        > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                        > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                        > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                        >
                        > Some food for thought, I trust.
                        >
                        > John Ronning
                        > jronning@...
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                        > Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
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                        > Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        ------------------------------------

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                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:   PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is necessary to give your message its proper context.     My
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                          Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                           

                          "PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
                          necessary to give your message its proper context."
                           
                           
                          My apologies, Jeffrey. I just realized that I'm twice one of the guilty parties.
                           
                           
                          Jeffery Hodges

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jack Kilmon
                          Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks. John? Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                            Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks.


                            John?


                            Jack Kilmon
                            jkilmon@...


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:17 PM
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                            > Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
                            >
                            > Jeffery Hodges
                            >
                            > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                            >
                            > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                            > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM
                            >
                            > Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.
                            >
                            > Jack Kilmon
                            >
                            >
                            > ----- Original Message -----
                            > From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                            >
                            >
                            >> I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                            >>
                            >> Jeffery Hodges
                            >>
                            >> University Degrees:
                            >>
                            >> Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                            >> (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
                            > Gnostic Texts")
                            >> M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                            >> B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                            >>
                            >> Email Address:
                            >>
                            >> jefferyhodges@...
                            >>
                            >> Blog:
                            >>
                            >> http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                            >>
                            >> Office Address:
                            >>
                            >> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            >> School of English, Kyung Hee University
                            >> 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                            >> Seoul, 130-701
                            >> South Korea
                            >>
                            >> Home Address:
                            >>
                            >> Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            >> Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                            >> Sangbong-dong 1
                            >> Jungnang-gu
                            >> Seoul 131-771
                            >> South Korea
                            >>
                            >> --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                            >>
                            >> From: jronning <jronning@...>
                            >> Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                            >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                            >>
                            >> Greetings all,
                            >>
                            >> Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                            >> possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                            >> expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
                            > the
                            >> Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                            >> the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                            >> continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
                            > the
                            >> last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                            >> really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                            >> OT).
                            >>
                            >> Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                            >> of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                            > Targum
                            >> of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                            >> Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                            >> pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                            >> my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                            >> Targums of the Pentateuch.
                            >>
                            >> Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
                            > other
                            >> features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                            >> illuminating John. Some random examples:
                            >>
                            >> 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                            >> Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                            >> and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
                            > am
                            >> he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                            >> back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                            >> resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
                            > of
                            >> Deut
                            >> 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
                            > the
                            >> living in
                            >> this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                            >> "No
                            >> one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
                            > literal
                            >> translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
                            > one
                            >> delivers from my hand."
                            >>
                            >> 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                            >> for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                            >> these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                            >> water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                            >> This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                            >> woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                            >> you,"
                            >> to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                            >> well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                            >> conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                            >>
                            >> 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
                            > reference
                            >> to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                            >> In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                            >> Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                            >> ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                            >> from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                            >> and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
                            > sayings
                            >> in
                            >> John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
                            > Isaiah
                            >> (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                            >>
                            >> 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                            >> not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                            >> how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                            >> done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
                            > not
                            >> believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                            >> who believed in his name).
                            >>
                            >> In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                            >> divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                            >> the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
                            > God did
                            >> in
                            >> the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                            >> does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                            >> background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                            >> programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                            >> pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                            >> other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                            >> the upper room as a new Sinai).
                            >>
                            >> Some food for thought, I trust.
                            >>
                            >> John Ronning
                            >> jronning@...
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                            >> Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ------------------------------------
                            >>
                            >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                            >> Links
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                            > Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            ... From: John Ronning To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                              > Greetings Tom,
                              > A book for an article -- such a deal! I assume it would help if I gave you
                              > a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone
                              > coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                              > Regards in the Lord,
                              > John Ronning


                              John, everyone seems to be interested in your article. Perhaps uploading it
                              to our file section will save you a lot of e-mailing.

                              Jack Kilmon
                            • Tom Butler
                              John,    Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
                                John,
                                   Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for them).  A U.S. address would cut my mailing cost.  Thank you for the offer.
                                   Your brief description of your article and forthcoming book suggests that you and I may be on similar tracks.  I do not have any expertise in the study of the Targum, but I suspect that the Fourth Gospel may be a skillfully written Midrash of the Gospel story, an effort to write the Christian Gospel using the language of the Septuagint, perhaps even an effort to re-write (update?) the Torah in the light of Christ.  
                                   Specifically, I have suggested that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel use "signs" (words and symbols taken from the Septuagint - especially from the Torah) to show to initiated readers how Jesus systematically replaced every element of the Mosaic system of worship: the temple, the festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.  My book focuses on John 11, 12 and 13, what I call "the ordination trilogy," showing how Jesus replaced the priesthood with His own disciples, including Mary of Bethany, my candidate for the role of "Beloved Disciple," who is given a status equivalent to that of Peter (bishop) and entrusted with the task of maintaining the tradition of His death.
                                    Clearly I'm on unorthodox ground.  I'm always hoping that someone has traveled in similar territory and can enter into a scholarly dialogue with me regarding what I think I've found.  The contributors to this list include some who have been willing to venture for a short way in that direction with me.  I'm hoping you will be one too.
                                In Christ's service,
                                Tom Butler




                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:13:19 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                                Greetings Tom,
                                A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                                Regards in the Lord,
                                John Ronning

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@pacbell. net>
                                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                                Dear John,
                                    I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                                Yours in Christ's service,
                                Dr. Tom Butler
                                 

                                ----- Original Message ----
                                From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                                To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                                Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                                Greetings all,

                                Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                OT).

                                Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                illuminating John. Some random examples:

                                1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                delivers from my hand.."

                                2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                                3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                                4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                who believed in his name).

                                In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                the upper room as a new Sinai).

                                Some food for thought, I trust.

                                John Ronning
                                jronning@yahoo. com

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • dean198
                                Dear John, I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very
                                Message 15 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                  Dear John,
                                  I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                  Thanks
                                  Dean
                                  BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                  Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > Greetings all,
                                  >
                                  > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                  > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                  > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                  > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                  > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                  > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                  > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                  > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                  > OT).
                                  >
                                  > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                  >
                                  > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                  > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                  > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                  >
                                  > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                  > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                  > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                  > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                  > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                  > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                  > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                  > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                  > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                  > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                  > delivers from my hand."
                                  >
                                  > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                  > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                  > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                  > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                  > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                  > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                  > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                  > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                  > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                  >
                                  > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                  > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                  > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                  > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                  > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                  > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                  > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                  > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                  > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                  >
                                  > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                  > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                  > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                  > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                  > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                  > who believed in his name).
                                  >
                                  > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                  > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                  > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                  > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                  > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                  > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                  > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                  > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                  > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                  > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                  >
                                  > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                  >
                                  > John Ronning
                                  > jronning@...
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  >
                                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                  I d also be interested in a copy.   Jeffery Hodges Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ Doctoral Thesis: Food
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                    I'd also be interested in a copy.
                                     
                                    Jeffery Hodges

                                    Ewha Womans University
                                    Seoul, South Korea

                                    Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                    Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                    Home Address:

                                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                    Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                                    Sangbong-dong 1
                                    Jungnang-gu
                                    Seoul 131-771
                                    South Korea

                                    --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@...> wrote:


                                    From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                    Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                    Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM


                                    Dear John,
                                    I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                    Thanks
                                    Dean
                                    BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                    Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                    --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Greetings all,
                                    >
                                    > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                    > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                    > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                    > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                    > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                    > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                    > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                    > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                    > OT).
                                    >
                                    > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                    > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                    > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                    > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                    > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                    > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                    > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                    >
                                    > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                    > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                    > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                                    >
                                    > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                    > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                    > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                    > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                    > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                    > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                    > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                    > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                                    > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                    > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                    > delivers from my hand."
                                    >
                                    > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                    > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                    > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                    > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                    > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                    > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                    > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                    > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                                    > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                    >
                                    > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                    > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                    > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                    > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                    > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                    > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                    > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                    > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                    > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                    >
                                    > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                    > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                    > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                    > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                    > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                    > who believed in his name).
                                    >
                                    > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                    > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                    > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                                    > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                    > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                    > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                    > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                                    > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                    > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                    > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                    >
                                    > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                    >
                                    > John Ronning
                                    > jronning@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >




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                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • DanielMcGrady22@aol.com
                                    Hi John, I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of your paper. Many thanks, Danny McGrady In a message dated 18/04/2009
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                      Hi John,

                                      I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                      your paper.

                                      Many thanks,

                                      Danny McGrady


                                      In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                                      writes:

                                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Tony Costa
                                      Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper as well. Best regards, Tony Costa _____ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                        Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper
                                        as well.



                                        Best regards,


                                        Tony Costa



                                        _____

                                        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                        DanielMcGrady22@...
                                        Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:21 PM
                                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John









                                        Hi John,

                                        I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                        your paper.

                                        Many thanks,

                                        Danny McGrady


                                        In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                        <mailto:dean198%40yahoo.com> com
                                        writes:

                                        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Tom Butler
                                        Dean,   I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book. Tom Butler ... From: Horace
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                          Dean,
                                           
                                          I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book.

                                          Tom Butler

                                          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

                                          From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
                                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:34 AM








                                          I'd also be interested in a copy.
                                           
                                          Jeffery Hodges

                                          Ewha Womans University
                                          Seoul, South Korea

                                          Blog: http://gypsyscholar ship.blogspot. com/

                                          Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                                          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                          Home Address:

                                          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                                          Sangbong-dong 1
                                          Jungnang-gu
                                          Seoul 131-771
                                          South Korea

                                          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                          From: dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com>
                                          Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM

                                          Dear John,
                                          I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                          Thanks
                                          Dean
                                          BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                          Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                          --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Greetings all,
                                          >
                                          > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                          > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                          > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                          > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                          > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                          > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                          > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                          > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                          > OT).
                                          >
                                          > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                          >
                                          > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                          > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                          > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                                          >
                                          > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                          > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                          > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                          > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                          > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                          > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                          > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                          > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                                          > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                          > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                          > delivers from my hand."
                                          >
                                          > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                          > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                          > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                          > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                          > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                          > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                          > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                          > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                                          > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                          >
                                          > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                          > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                          > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                          > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                          > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                          > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                          > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                          > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                          > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                          >
                                          > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                          > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                          > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                          > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                          > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                          > who believed in his name).
                                          >
                                          > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                          > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                          > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                                          > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                          > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                          > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                          > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                                          > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                          > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                          > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                          >
                                          > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                          >
                                          > John Ronning
                                          > jronning@...
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          >

                                          ------------ --------- --------- ------

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                                        • Don Garlington
                                          Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks. Don G. ... From: DanielMcGrady22@aol.com Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                            Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                            Don G.

                                            --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...> wrote:
                                            From: DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM



















                                            Hi John,



                                            I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of

                                            your paper.



                                            Many thanks,



                                            Danny McGrady





                                            In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo. com

                                            writes:



                                            Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum

                                            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing

                                            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                            > Targums of the Pentateuch.



                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                                            John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                              John:

                                              I also would like a copy of your article.

                                              Mark A. Matson
                                              Academic Dean
                                              Milligan College
                                              http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                                              ________________________________

                                              From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
                                              Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
                                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




                                              Hi John,

                                              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                              your paper.

                                              Many thanks,

                                              Danny McGrady


                                              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                                              writes:

                                              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                              > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                              ------------------------------------

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                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • PHILLIPS P.M.
                                              Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                Dear Dan

                                                Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                temple Judaism.

                                                Pete

                                                Pete Phillips
                                                Director of Research
                                                Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                St John's College, Durham, UK

                                                ________________________________

                                                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
                                                Garlington
                                                Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                                Don G.

                                                --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
                                                <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
                                                <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
                                                From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
                                                <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
                                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                                Hi John,

                                                I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                                of

                                                your paper.

                                                Many thanks,

                                                Danny McGrady

                                                In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                                com

                                                writes:

                                                Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                                Targum

                                                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                                publishing

                                                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                                > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • Jack Kilmon
                                                ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                                  From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
                                                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
                                                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


                                                  > Dear Dan
                                                  >
                                                  > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                  > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                  > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                  > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                  > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                  > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                  > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                  > temple Judaism.
                                                  >
                                                  > Pete
                                                  >
                                                  > Pete Phillips
                                                  > Director of Research
                                                  > Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                  > St John's College, Durham, UK


                                                  Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
                                                  would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
                                                  Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
                                                  Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
                                                  an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
                                                  phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
                                                  your paper on the prologue.

                                                  Jack


                                                  Jack Kilmon
                                                  San Antonio, TX
                                                • deanf4545
                                                  I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                  • John Ronning
                                                    Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , May 25 6:14 AM
                                                      Greetings Dean,

                                                      Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

                                                      Regards,

                                                      John Ronning




                                                      ________________________________
                                                      From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                      Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
                                                      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                      Dear John,
                                                      I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                                      Thanks
                                                      Dean
                                                      BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                                      Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                                      --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Greetings all,
                                                      >
                                                      > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                                      > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                                      > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                                      > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                                      > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                                      > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                                      > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                                      > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                                      > OT).
                                                      >
                                                      > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                                      >
                                                      > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                                      > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                                      > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                                      >
                                                      > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                                      > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                                      > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                                      > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                                      > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                                      > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                                      > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                                      > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                                      > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                                      > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                                      > delivers from my hand."
                                                      >
                                                      > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                                      > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                                      > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                                      > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                                      > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                                      > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                                      > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                                      > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                                      > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                                      >
                                                      > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                                      > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                                      > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                                      > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                                      > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                                      > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                                      > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                                      > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                                      > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                                      >
                                                      > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                                      > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                                      > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                                      > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                                      > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                                      > who believed in his name).
                                                      >
                                                      > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                                      > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                                      > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                                      > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                                      > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                                      > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                                      > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                                      > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                                      > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                                      > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                                      >
                                                      > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                                      >
                                                      > John Ronning
                                                      > jronning@...
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      >
                                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                      >







                                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                    • John Ronning
                                                      Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , May 25 6:53 AM
                                                        Pete,

                                                        Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                                                        Briefly to your other q's:
                                                        The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                                                        From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                                                        Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                                                        Regards,

                                                        John Ronning




                                                        ________________________________
                                                        From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                                                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                                                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                        Dear Dan

                                                        Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                        from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                        Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                        documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                        the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                        this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                        to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                        temple Judaism.

                                                        Pete

                                                        Pete Phillips
                                                        Director of Research
                                                        Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                        St John's College, Durham, UK

                                                        ____________ _________ _________ __

                                                        From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                        [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                                                        Garlington
                                                        Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                                        To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                                                        Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                                        Don G.

                                                        --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                                        <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                                        <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                                                        From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                                                        <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                                                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                                        To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                        <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                                        Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                                        Hi John,

                                                        I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                                        of

                                                        your paper.

                                                        Many thanks,

                                                        Danny McGrady

                                                        In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                                        com

                                                        writes:

                                                        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                                        Targum

                                                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                                        publishing

                                                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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