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Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

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  • celucien joseph
    Hello John, � Thanks for illuminating us concerning this important matter. Can you email me the paper? I ll appreciate it. � Sincerely, � Celucien Joseph
    Message 1 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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      Hello John,
      �
      Thanks for illuminating us concerning this important matter. Can you email me the paper? I'll appreciate it.
      �
      Sincerely,
      �
      Celucien Joseph
      PhD candidate (NT) Bangor University
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      I d be interested in a copy of your article.   Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley (Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in
      Message 2 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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        I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
         
        Jeffery Hodges

        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        School of English, Kyung Hee University
        1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
        Seoul, 130-701
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
        Sangbong-dong 1
        Jungnang-gu
        Seoul 131-771
        South Korea

        --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:

        From: jronning <jronning@...>
        Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM

        Greetings all,

        Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
        possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
        expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
        Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
        the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
        continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
        last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
        really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
        OT).

        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
        of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
        of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
        Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
        pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
        my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
        Targums of the Pentateuch.

        Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
        features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
        illuminating John. Some random examples:

        1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
        Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
        and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
        he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
        back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
        resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of
        Deut
        32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the
        living in
        this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
        "No
        one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
        translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
        delivers from my hand."

        2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
        for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
        these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
        water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
        This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
        woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
        you,"
        to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
        well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
        conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

        3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
        to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
        In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
        Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
        ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
        from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
        and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings
        in
        John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
        (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

        4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
        not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
        how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
        done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
        believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
        who believed in his name).

        In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
        divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
        the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did
        in
        the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
        does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
        background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
        programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
        pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
        other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
        the upper room as a new Sinai).

        Some food for thought, I trust.

        John Ronning
        jronning@...



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      • Tony Costa
        Dear John, I would appreciate a copy of your article, it sounds very interesting. Rev. Tony Costa, PhD (cand) University of Pretoria
        Message 3 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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          Dear John, I would appreciate a copy of your article, it sounds very interesting.

          Rev. Tony Costa, PhD (cand)
          University of Pretoria
        • Tom Butler
          Dear John,     I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address:
          Message 4 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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            Dear John,
                I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@... .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
            Yours in Christ's service,
            Dr. Tom Butler
             



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: jronning <jronning@...>
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
            Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


            Greetings all,

            Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
            possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
            expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
            Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
            the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
            continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
            last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
            really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
            OT).

            Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
            of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
            of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
            Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
            pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
            my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
            Targums of the Pentateuch.

            Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
            features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
            illuminating John. Some random examples:

            1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
            Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
            and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
            he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
            back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
            resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
            32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
            this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
            one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
            translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
            delivers from my hand."

            2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
            for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
            these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
            water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
            This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
            woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
            to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
            well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
            conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

            3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
            to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
            In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
            Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
            ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
            from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
            and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
            John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
            (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

            4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
            not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
            how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
            done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
            believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
            who believed in his name).

            In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
            divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
            the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
            the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
            does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
            background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
            programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
            pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
            other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
            the upper room as a new Sinai).

            Some food for thought, I trust.

            John Ronning
            jronning@yahoo. com

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • McGrath, James
            Let me also add my name to the list of those interested in reading your article, John! James
            Message 5 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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              Let me also add my name to the list of those interested in reading your article, John!

              James



              ***************************************************************************************************************

              Dr. James F. McGrath Tel. (317) 940-9364

              Associate Professor of Religion e-mail: jfmcgrat@...<mailto:jfmcgrat@...>

              Butler University, 4600 Sunset Avenue http://blue.butler.edu/~jfmcgrat/

              Indianapolis, IN 46208 http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com<http://exploringourmatrix.blogspot.com/>

              ***************************************************************************************************************







              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • johannine_lit
              Hi there, I d also like to receive a copy of the article please. Jonathan Brown Union Theological College Belfast
              Message 6 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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                Hi there, I'd also like to receive a copy of the article please.

                Jonathan Brown
                Union Theological College
                Belfast
              • Jack Kilmon
                Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy. Jack Kilmon ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
                Message 7 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                • 0 Attachment
                  Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.

                  Jack Kilmon


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                  > I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                  >
                  > Jeffery Hodges
                  >
                  > University Degrees:
                  >
                  > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                  > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                  >
                  > Email Address:
                  >
                  > jefferyhodges@...
                  >
                  > Blog:
                  >
                  > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                  >
                  > Office Address:
                  >
                  > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  > School of English, Kyung Hee University
                  > 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                  > Seoul, 130-701
                  > South Korea
                  >
                  > Home Address:
                  >
                  > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  > Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                  > Sangbong-dong 1
                  > Jungnang-gu
                  > Seoul 131-771
                  > South Korea
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: jronning <jronning@...>
                  > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                  > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                  >
                  > Greetings all,
                  >
                  > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                  > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                  > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                  > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                  > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                  > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                  > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                  > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                  > OT).
                  >
                  > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                  >
                  > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                  > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                  > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                  >
                  > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                  > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                  > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                  > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                  > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                  > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of
                  > Deut
                  > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the
                  > living in
                  > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                  > "No
                  > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                  > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                  > delivers from my hand."
                  >
                  > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                  > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                  > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                  > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                  > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                  > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                  > you,"
                  > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                  > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                  > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                  >
                  > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                  > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                  > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                  > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                  > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                  > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                  > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings
                  > in
                  > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                  > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                  >
                  > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                  > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                  > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                  > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                  > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                  > who believed in his name).
                  >
                  > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                  > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                  > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did
                  > in
                  > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                  > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                  > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                  > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                  > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                  > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                  > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                  >
                  > Some food for thought, I trust.
                  >
                  > John Ronning
                  > jronning@...
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                  > Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >
                  > ------------------------------------
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                  > Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  I would like a copy. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm ________________________________
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
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                    I would like a copy.

                    Mark A. Matson
                    Academic Dean
                    Milligan College
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                    ________________________________

                    From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of jronning
                    Sent: Thu 7/10/2008 8:28 AM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John



                    Greetings all,

                    Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                    possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                    expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                    Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                    the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                    continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                    last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                    really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                    OT).

                    Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                    of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                    of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                    Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                    pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                    my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                    Targums of the Pentateuch.

                    Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                    features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                    illuminating John. Some random examples:

                    1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                    Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                    and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                    he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                    back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                    resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                    32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                    this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                    one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                    translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                    delivers from my hand."

                    2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                    for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                    these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                    water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                    This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                    woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                    to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                    well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                    conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                    3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                    to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                    In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                    Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                    ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                    from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                    and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                    John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                    (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                    4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                    not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                    how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                    done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                    believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                    who believed in his name).

                    In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                    divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                    the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                    the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                    does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                    background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                    programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                    pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                    other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                    the upper room as a new Sinai).

                    Some food for thought, I trust.

                    John Ronning
                    jronning@...



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


                    ------------------------------------

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                  • John Ronning
                    Greetings Tom, A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I m in South Africa but could have it brought by
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Greetings Tom,
                      A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                      Regards in the Lord,
                      John Ronning


                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                      Dear John,
                          I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                      Yours in Christ's service,
                      Dr. Tom Butler
                       

                      ----- Original Message ----
                      From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                      To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                      Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                      Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                      Greetings all,

                      Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                      possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                      expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                      Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                      the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                      continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                      last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                      really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                      OT).

                      Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                      of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                      of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                      Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                      pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                      my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                      Targums of the Pentateuch.

                      Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                      features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                      illuminating John. Some random examples:

                      1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                      Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                      and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                      he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                      back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                      resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                      32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                      this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                      one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                      translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                      delivers from my hand.."

                      2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                      for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                      these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                      water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                      This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                      woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                      to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                      well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                      conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                      3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                      to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                      In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                      Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                      ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                      from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                      and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                      John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                      (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                      4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                      not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                      how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                      done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                      believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                      who believed in his name).

                      In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                      divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                      the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                      the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                      does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                      background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                      programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                      pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                      other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                      the upper room as a new Sinai).

                      Some food for thought, I trust.

                      John Ronning
                      jronning@yahoo. com

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jeffrey B. Gibson
                      Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the quotation not just of the
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Below is an example of something that is expressly forbidden by out
                        protocols . but which has happened at least 4 times today -- the
                        quotation not just of the entirety of a message one is responding to,
                        but of a string of messages.

                        PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
                        necessary to give your message its proper context.

                        Those who do not snip their posts according to protocols will be placed
                        on moderated status and their messages that contain excessive quotes
                        will be rejected.

                        Jeffrey Gibson

                        *********

                        John Ronning wrote:
                        > Greetings Tom,
                        > A book for an article -- such a deal!� I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                        > Regards in the Lord,
                        > John Ronning
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
                        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                        >
                        >
                        > Dear John,
                        > ��� I would very much like to read your article.� If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my�e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .�� FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.� It is�called�Let Her�Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).� In return for the opportunity to read� your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                        > Yours in Christ's service,
                        > Dr. Tom Butler
                        > �
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message ----
                        > From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                        > To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                        > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                        > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                        >
                        > Greetings all,
                        >
                        > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                        > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                        > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                        > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                        > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                        > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                        > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                        > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                        > OT).
                        >
                        > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                        >
                        > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                        > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                        > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                        >
                        > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                        > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                        > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                        > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                        > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                        > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                        > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                        > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                        > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                        > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                        > delivers from my hand.."
                        >
                        > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                        > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                        > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                        > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                        > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                        > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                        > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                        > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                        > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                        >
                        > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                        > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                        > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                        > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                        > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                        > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                        > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                        > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                        > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                        >
                        > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                        > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                        > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                        > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                        > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                        > who believed in his name).
                        >
                        > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                        > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                        > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                        > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                        > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                        > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                        > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                        > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                        > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                        > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                        >
                        > Some food for thought, I trust.
                        >
                        > John Ronning
                        > jronning@yahoo. com
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >
                        > ------------------------------------
                        >
                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >


                        --
                        Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon)
                        1500 W. Pratt Blvd.
                        Chicago, Illinois
                        e-mail jgibson000@...
                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.   Jeffery Hodges ... From: Jack Kilmon Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
                           
                          Jeffery Hodges

                          --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

                          From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM

                          Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.

                          Jack Kilmon


                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                          > I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                          >
                          > Jeffery Hodges
                          >
                          > University Degrees:
                          >
                          > Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                          > (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
                          Gnostic Texts")
                          > M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                          > B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                          >
                          > Email Address:
                          >
                          > jefferyhodges@...
                          >
                          > Blog:
                          >
                          > http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                          >
                          > Office Address:
                          >
                          > Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          > School of English, Kyung Hee University
                          > 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                          > Seoul, 130-701
                          > South Korea
                          >
                          > Home Address:
                          >
                          > Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          > Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                          > Sangbong-dong 1
                          > Jungnang-gu
                          > Seoul 131-771
                          > South Korea
                          >
                          > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > From: jronning <jronning@...>
                          > Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                          > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                          >
                          > Greetings all,
                          >
                          > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                          > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                          > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
                          the
                          > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                          > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                          > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
                          the
                          > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                          > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                          > OT).
                          >
                          > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                          Targum
                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                          >
                          > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
                          other
                          > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                          > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                          >
                          > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                          > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                          > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
                          am
                          > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                          > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                          > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
                          of
                          > Deut
                          > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
                          the
                          > living in
                          > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                          > "No
                          > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
                          literal
                          > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
                          one
                          > delivers from my hand."
                          >
                          > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                          > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                          > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                          > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                          > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                          > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                          > you,"
                          > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                          > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                          > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                          >
                          > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
                          reference
                          > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                          > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                          > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                          > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                          > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                          > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
                          sayings
                          > in
                          > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
                          Isaiah
                          > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                          >
                          > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                          > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                          > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                          > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
                          not
                          > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                          > who believed in his name).
                          >
                          > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                          > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                          > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
                          God did
                          > in
                          > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                          > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                          > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                          > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                          > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                          > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                          > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                          >
                          > Some food for thought, I trust.
                          >
                          > John Ronning
                          > jronning@...
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                          > Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                          > Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >


                          ------------------------------------

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                          UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:   PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is necessary to give your message its proper context.     My
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Jeffrey B. Gibson wrote:
                             

                            "PLEASE quote only as much of a post you are responding to as is
                            necessary to give your message its proper context."
                             
                             
                            My apologies, Jeffrey. I just realized that I'm twice one of the guilty parties.
                             
                             
                            Jeffery Hodges

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Jack Kilmon
                            Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks. John? Jack Kilmon jkilmon@historian.net ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To:
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                            • 0 Attachment
                              Yepper, sure did, Jeffery. Thanks.


                              John?


                              Jack Kilmon
                              jkilmon@...


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 4:17 PM
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                              > Jack, you probably mean to address John Ronning.
                              >
                              > Jeffery Hodges
                              >
                              > --- On Thu, 7/10/08, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
                              >
                              > From: Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...>
                              > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                              > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                              > Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 12:48 PM
                              >
                              > Excellent, Jeffery. Please send me a copy.
                              >
                              > Jack Kilmon
                              >
                              >
                              > ----- Original Message -----
                              > From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
                              > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              > Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 8:10 AM
                              > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                              >
                              >
                              >> I'd be interested in a copy of your article.
                              >>
                              >> Jeffery Hodges
                              >>
                              >> University Degrees:
                              >>
                              >> Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                              >> (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and
                              > Gnostic Texts")
                              >> M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                              >> B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University
                              >>
                              >> Email Address:
                              >>
                              >> jefferyhodges@...
                              >>
                              >> Blog:
                              >>
                              >> http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/
                              >>
                              >> Office Address:
                              >>
                              >> Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              >> School of English, Kyung Hee University
                              >> 1 Hoegi-dong, Dongdaemun-gu
                              >> Seoul, 130-701
                              >> South Korea
                              >>
                              >> Home Address:
                              >>
                              >> Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              >> Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                              >> Sangbong-dong 1
                              >> Jungnang-gu
                              >> Seoul 131-771
                              >> South Korea
                              >>
                              >> --- On Thu, 7/10/08, jronning <jronning@...> wrote:
                              >>
                              >> From: jronning <jronning@...>
                              >> Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John
                              >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                              >> Date: Thursday, July 10, 2008, 7:28 AM
                              >>
                              >> Greetings all,
                              >>
                              >> Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                              >> possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                              >> expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render
                              > the
                              >> Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                              >> the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                              >> continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for
                              > the
                              >> last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                              >> really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                              >> OT).
                              >>
                              >> Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                              >> of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                              > Targum
                              >> of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                              >> Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                              >> pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                              >> my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                              >> Targums of the Pentateuch.
                              >>
                              >> Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and
                              > other
                              >> features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                              >> illuminating John. Some random examples:
                              >>
                              >> 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                              >> Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                              >> and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I
                              > am
                              >> he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                              >> back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                              >> resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering
                              > of
                              >> Deut
                              >> 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death
                              > the
                              >> living in
                              >> this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also,
                              >> "No
                              >> one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a
                              > literal
                              >> translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No
                              > one
                              >> delivers from my hand."
                              >>
                              >> 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                              >> for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                              >> these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                              >> water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                              >> This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                              >> woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are
                              >> you,"
                              >> to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                              >> well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                              >> conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                              >>
                              >> 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a
                              > reference
                              >> to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                              >> In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                              >> Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                              >> ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                              >> from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                              >> and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up"
                              > sayings
                              >> in
                              >> John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in
                              > Isaiah
                              >> (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                              >>
                              >> 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                              >> not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                              >> how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                              >> done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they
                              > not
                              >> believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                              >> who believed in his name).
                              >>
                              >> In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                              >> divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                              >> the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what
                              > God did
                              >> in
                              >> the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                              >> does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                              >> background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                              >> programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                              >> pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                              >> other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                              >> the upper room as a new Sinai).
                              >>
                              >> Some food for thought, I trust.
                              >>
                              >> John Ronning
                              >> jronning@...
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                              >> Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >>
                              >>
                              >> ------------------------------------
                              >>
                              >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                              >> Links
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >>
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                              > Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              >
                              >
                              > ------------------------------------
                              >
                              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messagesYahoo! Groups
                              > Links
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Jack Kilmon
                              ... From: John Ronning To: Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jul 10, 2008
                              • 0 Attachment
                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "John Ronning" <jronning@...>
                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 2:13 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                                > Greetings Tom,
                                > A book for an article -- such a deal! I assume it would help if I gave you
                                > a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone
                                > coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                                > Regards in the Lord,
                                > John Ronning


                                John, everyone seems to be interested in your article. Perhaps uploading it
                                to our file section will save you a lot of e-mailing.

                                Jack Kilmon
                              • Tom Butler
                                John,    Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jul 11, 2008
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  John,
                                     Yes, it would be helpful if you could provide me with a U.S. address, though I have sent copies all over the world (when the customer paid for them).  A U.S. address would cut my mailing cost.  Thank you for the offer.
                                     Your brief description of your article and forthcoming book suggests that you and I may be on similar tracks.  I do not have any expertise in the study of the Targum, but I suspect that the Fourth Gospel may be a skillfully written Midrash of the Gospel story, an effort to write the Christian Gospel using the language of the Septuagint, perhaps even an effort to re-write (update?) the Torah in the light of Christ.  
                                     Specifically, I have suggested that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel use "signs" (words and symbols taken from the Septuagint - especially from the Torah) to show to initiated readers how Jesus systematically replaced every element of the Mosaic system of worship: the temple, the festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.  My book focuses on John 11, 12 and 13, what I call "the ordination trilogy," showing how Jesus replaced the priesthood with His own disciples, including Mary of Bethany, my candidate for the role of "Beloved Disciple," who is given a status equivalent to that of Peter (bishop) and entrusted with the task of maintaining the tradition of His death.
                                      Clearly I'm on unorthodox ground.  I'm always hoping that someone has traveled in similar territory and can enter into a scholarly dialogue with me regarding what I think I've found.  The contributors to this list include some who have been willing to venture for a short way in that direction with me.  I'm hoping you will be one too.
                                  In Christ's service,
                                  Tom Butler




                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: John Ronning <jronning@...>
                                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 12:13:19 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John


                                  Greetings Tom,
                                  A book for an article -- such a deal!  I assume it would help if I gave you a US address? (I'm in South Africa but could have it brought by someone coming here frm PA). Many thanks (the article is coming separately).
                                  Regards in the Lord,
                                  John Ronning

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: Tom Butler <pastor_t@pacbell. net>
                                  To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:54:27 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                                  Dear John,
                                      I would very much like to read your article.  If you are still offering it, please send your pdf file to my e-mail address: pastor_t@pacbell. net .   FYI I am the author of a book published in 1998 that draws a lot of connections between the Old Testament, especially the Torah, and the Fourth Gospel.  It is called Let Her Keep It (a title drawn from John 12: 7).  In return for the opportunity to read  your article, let me know if you would like to receive a copy of my book.
                                  Yours in Christ's service,
                                  Dr. Tom Butler
                                   

                                  ----- Original Message ----
                                  From: jronning <jronning@yahoo. com>
                                  To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                  Sent: Thursday, July 10, 2008 5:28:25 AM
                                  Subject: [John_Lit] Targum backgrounds for John

                                  Greetings all,

                                  Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                  possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                  expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                  Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                  the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                  continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                  last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                  really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                  OT).

                                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                  of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                  of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                  Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                  pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                  my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                  Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                  Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                  features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                  illuminating John. Some random examples:

                                  1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                  Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                  and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                  he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                  back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                  resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                  32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                  this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                  one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                  translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                  delivers from my hand.."

                                  2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                  for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                  these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                  water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                  This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                  woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                  to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                  well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                  conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.

                                  3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                  to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                  In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                  Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                  ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                  from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                  and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                  John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                  (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).

                                  4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                  not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                  how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                  done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                  believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                  who believed in his name).

                                  In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                  divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                  the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                  the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                  does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                  background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                  programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                  pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                  other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                  the upper room as a new Sinai).

                                  Some food for thought, I trust.

                                  John Ronning
                                  jronning@yahoo. com

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • dean198
                                  Dear John, I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Dear John,
                                    I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                    Thanks
                                    Dean
                                    BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                    Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                    --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                                    >
                                    > Greetings all,
                                    >
                                    > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                    > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                    > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                    > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                    > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                    > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                    > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                    > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                    > OT).
                                    >
                                    > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                    > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                    > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                    > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                    > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                    > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                    > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                    >
                                    > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                    > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                    > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                    >
                                    > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                    > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                    > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                    > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                    > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                    > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                    > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                    > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                    > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                    > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                    > delivers from my hand."
                                    >
                                    > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                    > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                    > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                    > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                    > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                    > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                    > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                    > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                    > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                    >
                                    > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                    > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                    > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                    > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                    > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                    > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                    > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                    > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                    > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                    >
                                    > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                    > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                    > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                    > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                    > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                    > who believed in his name).
                                    >
                                    > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                    > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                    > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                    > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                    > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                    > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                    > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                    > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                    > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                    > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                    >
                                    > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                    >
                                    > John Ronning
                                    > jronning@...
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    >
                                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                    I d also be interested in a copy.   Jeffery Hodges Ewha Womans University Seoul, South Korea Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/ Doctoral Thesis: Food
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      I'd also be interested in a copy.
                                       
                                      Jeffery Hodges

                                      Ewha Womans University
                                      Seoul, South Korea

                                      Blog: http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                      Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                                      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                      Home Address:

                                      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                      Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                                      Sangbong-dong 1
                                      Jungnang-gu
                                      Seoul 131-771
                                      South Korea

                                      --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@...> wrote:


                                      From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                      Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM


                                      Dear John,
                                      I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                      Thanks
                                      Dean
                                      BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                      Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "jronning" <jronning@...> wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Greetings all,
                                      >
                                      > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                      > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                      > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                      > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                      > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                      > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                      > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                      > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                      > OT).
                                      >
                                      > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                      > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                      > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                      > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                      > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                      > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                      > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                      >
                                      > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                      > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                      > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                                      >
                                      > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                      > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                      > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                      > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                      > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                      > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                      > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                      > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                                      > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                      > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                      > delivers from my hand."
                                      >
                                      > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                      > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                      > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                      > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                      > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                      > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                      > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                      > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                                      > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                      >
                                      > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                      > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                      > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                      > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                      > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                      > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                      > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                      > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                      > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                      >
                                      > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                      > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                      > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                      > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                      > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                      > who believed in his name).
                                      >
                                      > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                      > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                      > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                                      > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                      > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                      > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                      > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                                      > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                      > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                      > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                      >
                                      > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                      >
                                      > John Ronning
                                      > jronning@...
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      >




                                      ------------------------------------

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                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • DanielMcGrady22@aol.com
                                      Hi John, I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of your paper. Many thanks, Danny McGrady In a message dated 18/04/2009
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi John,

                                        I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                        your paper.

                                        Many thanks,

                                        Danny McGrady


                                        In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                                        writes:

                                        Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Tony Costa
                                        Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper as well. Best regards, Tony Costa _____ From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Apr 18, 2009
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Dear John, sounds fascinating. I would appreciate a pdf copy of your paper
                                          as well.



                                          Best regards,


                                          Tony Costa



                                          _____

                                          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
                                          DanielMcGrady22@...
                                          Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 4:21 PM
                                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John









                                          Hi John,

                                          I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                          your paper.

                                          Many thanks,

                                          Danny McGrady


                                          In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                          <mailto:dean198%40yahoo.com> com
                                          writes:

                                          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Tom Butler
                                          Dean,   I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book. Tom Butler ... From: Horace
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Dean,
                                             
                                            I would like to receive a PDF file containing a copy of your article, and I am looking forward to reading your book.

                                            Tom Butler

                                            --- On Sat, 4/18/09, Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...> wrote:

                                            From: Horace Jeffery Hodges <jefferyhodges@...>
                                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                            Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 11:34 AM








                                            I'd also be interested in a copy.
                                             
                                            Jeffery Hodges

                                            Ewha Womans University
                                            Seoul, South Korea

                                            Blog: http://gypsyscholar ship.blogspot. com/

                                            Doctoral Thesis: Food as Synecdoche in the Gospel of John and Gnostic Texts

                                            Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                            M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                            B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                            Home Address:

                                            Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                            Gunyoung Apt. 102-204
                                            Sangbong-dong 1
                                            Jungnang-gu
                                            Seoul 131-771
                                            South Korea

                                            --- On Sat, 4/18/09, dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com> wrote:

                                            From: dean198 <dean198@yahoo. com>
                                            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                            To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                            Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 8:52 AM

                                            Dear John,
                                            I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                            Thanks
                                            Dean
                                            BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                            Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                            --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                            >
                                            > Greetings all,
                                            >
                                            > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                            > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                            > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                            > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                            > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                            > continued to champion it.  This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                            > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                            > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                            > OT).
                                            >
                                            > Anyway,  my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                            > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                            > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                            > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                            > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                            > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                            > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                            >
                                            > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                            > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                            > illuminating John.  Some random examples:
                                            >
                                            > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                            > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                            > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                            > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                            > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                            > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                            > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                            > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come."  Also, "No
                                            > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                            > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                            > delivers from my hand."
                                            >
                                            > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                            > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                            > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                            > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                            > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                            > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                            > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                            > well of water surging up to eternal life."  Yes, I suppose we should
                                            > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                            >
                                            > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                            > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                            > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                            > Word of the Lord speaking to him.  Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                            > ago.  Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                            > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                            > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                            > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                            > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                            >
                                            > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                            > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                            > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                            > done among them?  In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                            > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                            > who believed in his name).
                                            >
                                            > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                            > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                            > the overall message "the Word has become flesh."   I.e., what God did in
                                            > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                            > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                            > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                            > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole.  In my article I show how this
                                            > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                            > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                            > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                            >
                                            > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                            >
                                            > John Ronning
                                            > jronning@...
                                            >
                                            >
                                            >
                                            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            >

                                            ------------ --------- --------- ------

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                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
















                                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                          • Don Garlington
                                            Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks. Don G. ... From: DanielMcGrady22@aol.com Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                            • 0 Attachment
                                              Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                              Don G.

                                              --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...> wrote:
                                              From: DanielMcGrady22@... <DanielMcGrady22@...>
                                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                              Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM



















                                              Hi John,



                                              I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of

                                              your paper.



                                              Many thanks,



                                              Danny McGrady





                                              In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo. com

                                              writes:



                                              Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                              > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum

                                              > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                              > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                              > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing

                                              > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                              > Targums of the Pentateuch.



                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




























                                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                            • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                                              John: I also would like a copy of your article. Mark A. Matson Academic Dean Milligan College http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Apr 19, 2009
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                John:

                                                I also would like a copy of your article.

                                                Mark A. Matson
                                                Academic Dean
                                                Milligan College
                                                http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/mmatson/personal.htm

                                                ________________________________

                                                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com on behalf of DanielMcGrady22@...
                                                Sent: Sat 4/18/2009 4:20 PM
                                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John




                                                Hi John,

                                                I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy of
                                                your paper.

                                                Many thanks,

                                                Danny McGrady


                                                In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@...
                                                writes:

                                                Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                                > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                                > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                                > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                                > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                                > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                                > Targums of the Pentateuch.






                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                                ------------------------------------

                                                SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                                UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                              • PHILLIPS P.M.
                                                Dear Dan Love to see the pdf but I don t agree at all that the Logos title comes from the Targumim. See my own contribution in Prologue of the Fourth
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                • 0 Attachment
                                                  Dear Dan

                                                  Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                  from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                  Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                  documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                  the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                  this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                  to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                  temple Judaism.

                                                  Pete

                                                  Pete Phillips
                                                  Director of Research
                                                  Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                  St John's College, Durham, UK

                                                  ________________________________

                                                  From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                  [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Don
                                                  Garlington
                                                  Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                  Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                                  Don G.

                                                  --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@...
                                                  <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> <DanielMcGrady22@...
                                                  <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> > wrote:
                                                  From: DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com>
                                                  <DanielMcGrady22@... <mailto:DanielMcGrady22%40aol.com> >
                                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                  <mailto:johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
                                                  Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                                  Hi John,

                                                  I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                                  of

                                                  your paper.

                                                  Many thanks,

                                                  Danny McGrady

                                                  In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                                  com

                                                  writes:

                                                  Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                                  > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                                  Targum

                                                  > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                                  > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                                  > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                                  publishing

                                                  > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                                  > Targums of the Pentateuch.

                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]











                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






                                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                • Jack Kilmon
                                                  ... From: PHILLIPS P.M. To: Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM Subject: RE: [John_Lit]
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                  • 0 Attachment
                                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                                    From: "PHILLIPS P.M." <p.m.phillips@...>
                                                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                                    Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 3:10 AM
                                                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John


                                                    > Dear Dan
                                                    >
                                                    > Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                    > from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                    > Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                    > documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                    > the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                    > this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                    > to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                    > temple Judaism.
                                                    >
                                                    > Pete
                                                    >
                                                    > Pete Phillips
                                                    > Director of Research
                                                    > Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                    > St John's College, Durham, UK


                                                    Since the Targums preserve an Aramaic idiom very similar to Old Judean, I
                                                    would not be surprised to see correspondences between the Targums and the
                                                    Aramaic sub-structure of 4G. I do not detect Aramaic interference in the
                                                    Greek of the Prologue, however, and have always consider the prologue to be
                                                    an antiphonal hymn appended to the text in one of its many redactional
                                                    phases. I am looking forward to reading the pdf and would also like to read
                                                    your paper on the prologue.

                                                    Jack


                                                    Jack Kilmon
                                                    San Antonio, TX
                                                  • deanf4545
                                                    I noticed that this article by John Ronning is already available in the files section of this group.
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Apr 20, 2009
                                                    • 0 Attachment
                                                    • John Ronning
                                                      Greetings Dean, Sorry I m just getting around to this now, I haven t been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , May 25 6:14 AM
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        Greetings Dean,

                                                        Sorry I'm just getting around to this now, I haven't been checking my yahoo e-mail regularly.  The article is attached. Hendrickson is also publishing my book on the same subject (about a year overdue so far).

                                                        Regards,

                                                        John Ronning




                                                        ________________________________
                                                        From: dean198 <dean198@...>
                                                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                        Sent: Saturday, April 18, 2009 3:52:28 PM
                                                        Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                        Dear John,
                                                        I would also be deeply interested in reading your article, if you could email it to me. I think this line of study will turn out to be very significant.
                                                        Thanks
                                                        Dean
                                                        BA Classics (summa cum laude) May 2009, CU Boulder.
                                                        Honors Thesis: "John Mark and the Johannine Corpus"

                                                        --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "jronning" <jronning@.. .> wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > Greetings all,
                                                        >
                                                        > Probably most are aware that 100 years ago it was commonly considered
                                                        > possible or likely that the Logos title came from the Aramaic (Targum)
                                                        > expression "the Word of the Lord" which was often used to render the
                                                        > Tetragrammaton, and that this idea has been widely discredited during
                                                        > the 20th century, though a few souls (notably Martin McNamara) have
                                                        > continued to champion it. This is an issue I've been looking at for the
                                                        > last five years or so, I got into it almost accidentally (my fieldis
                                                        > really more OT than NT, tho my major interest is NT interpretation of
                                                        > OT).
                                                        >
                                                        > Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt
                                                        > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The Targum
                                                        > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the
                                                        > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a
                                                        > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is publishing
                                                        > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian
                                                        > Targums of the Pentateuch.
                                                        >
                                                        > Much of John's Gospel is illuminated by such an understanding, and other
                                                        > features of the Targums besides the Word concept also contribute to
                                                        > illuminating John. Some random examples:
                                                        >
                                                        > 1. Tg. Neofiti Deut 32:39, "See now that I, I in my Word am he."
                                                        > Suggests a link between the Prologue (where John calls Jesus the Word)
                                                        > and the body of the Gospel, where Jesus (the Word) repeatedly says "I am
                                                        > he" (ego eimi); some of these ego eimi sayings in turn can be linked
                                                        > back to Deut 32:39 (or one of its Targum renderings); e.g. "I am the
                                                        > resurrection and the life" can be related to Neofiti's rendering of Deut
                                                        > 32:39, "I kill and I make alive" which is "I put to death the living in
                                                        > this world and raise the dead to life in the world to come." Also, "No
                                                        > one can snatch them out of my hand" (John 10:28) agrees with a literal
                                                        > translation of the Hebrew (but not the Aramaic) of Deut 32:39, "No one
                                                        > delivers from my hand."
                                                        >
                                                        > 2. The Palestinian Targums of Gen 28:10 say that five miracles were done
                                                        > for our father Jacob when he left home to go to Haran. The fifth of
                                                        > these was that when he lifted the stone from the mouth of the well, the
                                                        > water surged up and overflowed for 20 years (the time he was in Haran).
                                                        > This legend can be seen as being alluded to in answer to the Samaritan
                                                        > woman's question, "You are not greater than our father Jacob, are you,"
                                                        > to which Jesus replies that the water he gives "will become in him a
                                                        > well of water surging up to eternal life." Yes, I suppose we should
                                                        > conclude this legend was embraced by the Samaritans also.
                                                        >
                                                        > 3. John 12:41; Isaiah saw Christ's glory, context indicating a reference
                                                        > to Isaiah 6 (I saw the Lord, sitting on his throne, high and lifted up).
                                                        > In Tg. Isa 6:1 he sees the glory of the Lord's Shekinah and hears the
                                                        > Word of the Lord speaking to him. Dalman pointed this out 100 years
                                                        > ago. Not so well known is that Tg. Pseudo-Jonathan Deut 4:7 borrows
                                                        > from Isa 6:1 saying that the Word of the Lord sits on his throne, high
                                                        > and lifted up. My article also shows how the four "lifted up" sayings in
                                                        > John correspond to the four "high and lifted up" passages in Isaiah
                                                        > (that speak of God and his servant being high and lifted up).
                                                        >
                                                        > 4. John 12:37, though he had done so many signs among them, they were
                                                        > not believing in him. Some have seen this as a paraphrase of Num 14:11;
                                                        > how long will they not believe in me, in spite of all the signs I have
                                                        > done among them? In the various Targums, it is "how long will they not
                                                        > believe in my Word (or in the name of my Word);" cf. John 1:12, those
                                                        > who believed in his name).
                                                        >
                                                        > In general, allusions in John to the OT, where the Targums speak of the
                                                        > divine Word as accomplishing what the Hebrew text says God does, carry
                                                        > the overall message "the Word has become flesh." I.e., what God did in
                                                        > the OT (through the agency of his Word according to the Targums), he now
                                                        > does as a man sent by the Father. That is, recognizing the Targum
                                                        > background to John enables us to see "the Word became flesh" as
                                                        > programmatic of the Gospel as a whole. In my article I show how this
                                                        > pertains to the theme of God as warrior; in my book I do the same for
                                                        > other divine roles, e.g. Jesus as Bridegroom, Jesus as Lawgiver (with
                                                        > the upper room as a new Sinai).
                                                        >
                                                        > Some food for thought, I trust.
                                                        >
                                                        > John Ronning
                                                        > jronning@...
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        >
                                                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                                        >







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                                                      • John Ronning
                                                        Pete, Sorry I m just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD,
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , May 25 6:53 AM
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Pete,

                                                          Sorry I'm just getting around to this.  My view of the date of John is late 1st centruy.  There is a lot in John that depends on the events of 70AD, covered in my article under discussion of "Caiaphas [i.e. unwitting] prophecies," which I believe John saw in the Targums (this identification depends on the connection of targumic Word with the Logos title.

                                                          Briefly to your other q's:
                                                          The extant Targums all appear to come from 2nd century and later, but the argument for 1st century precursors upon which John (as well as other NT passages) depend for illumination is I think very strong - thus the historical evidence is from the NT itself.  I would recommend all of Martin McNamara's writings on this subject, especially his Analecta Biblica volume on the NT and the Palestinian Targums to the Pentateuch.  In the next couple of years Eerdmans should be coming out with a reworked edition of McNamara's Targum and Testament.

                                                          From this it can be inferred that John's target audience (I don't believe in the "Johannine community concept, except that the community is the church at large) included Aramaic speaking Jewish Christians, though it is also evident that he is writing to Gentiles who don't even know the equivalence of "Christ" and "Messiah."   I assume John meant for the former to use his material to instruct the latter (yes, including teaching them enough of the Targums to understand the thrust of John's burden).

                                                          Re. similar backgrounds - I agree there is something to this, e.g. there does seem to be a lot in coming philosophically between targumic Word and Philo's Logos (contra the opinion of many). Ironically this similarity has led people to the wrong conclusions (e.g. Philo or Wisdom instead of the Targums).

                                                          Regards,

                                                          John Ronning




                                                          ________________________________
                                                          From: PHILLIPS P.M. <p.m.phillips@...>
                                                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Sent: Monday, April 20, 2009 10:10:09 AM
                                                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John





                                                          Dear Dan

                                                          Love to see the pdf but I don't agree at all that the Logos title comes
                                                          from the Targumim. See my own contribution in "Prologue of the Fourth
                                                          Gospel". In any case, what date would you give to the respective
                                                          documents? Are you suggesting that John's community were well aware of
                                                          the relevant Targumic material? What historical evidence do you have of
                                                          this? Surely it is much more likely that there is a similar background
                                                          to both the Targumim and Johannine Literature - e.g. OT and second
                                                          temple Judaism.

                                                          Pete

                                                          Pete Phillips
                                                          Director of Research
                                                          Centre for Biblical Literacy
                                                          St John's College, Durham, UK

                                                          ____________ _________ _________ __

                                                          From: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                          [mailto:johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups.. com] On Behalf Of Don
                                                          Garlington
                                                          Sent: 19 April 2009 19:21
                                                          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John

                                                          Yes, please do send me the file. Thanks.

                                                          Don G.

                                                          --- On Sat, 4/18/09, DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                                          <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com
                                                          <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> > wrote:
                                                          From: DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com>
                                                          <DanielMcGrady22@ aol.com <mailto:DanielMcGra dy22%40aol. com> >
                                                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Targum backgrounds for John
                                                          To: johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com
                                                          <mailto:johannine_ literature% 40yahoogroups. com>
                                                          Date: Saturday, April 18, 2009, 1:20 PM

                                                          Hi John,

                                                          I like the work you are doing here and would also appreciate a pdf copy
                                                          of

                                                          your paper.

                                                          Many thanks,

                                                          Danny McGrady

                                                          In a message dated 18/04/2009 19:24:53 GMT Standard Time, dean198@yahoo.
                                                          com

                                                          writes:

                                                          Anyway, my studies have convinced me there is in fact no room for doubt

                                                          > of the Targum origin of the Logos title. I wrote an article "The
                                                          Targum

                                                          > of Isaiah and the Johannine Literature" published last Fall in the

                                                          > Westminster Theological Journal (pp. 247-278), of which I could send a

                                                          > pdf file to any who are interested. Next year Hendrickson is
                                                          publishing

                                                          > my book which looks at all the Targums, especially the Palestinian

                                                          > Targums of the Pentateuch.

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