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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?

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  • Terry Larm
    Roger, Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in a
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 25, 2008
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      Roger,

      Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus
      about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in
      a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy), this alone
      does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar negative
      view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know about how
      Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century. Do you
      know of any first century views that I can look into?

      Thanks,

      Terry

      On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM, mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...> wrote:

      > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > "Keith Yoder"
      > <klyoder5@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >snip<
      > > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
      > Pilate
      > > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
      > >
      > > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
      > they
      > > not be defiled from eating the Passover
      > > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
      > > charge do you bring...
      > > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
      > judge
      > > him...
      > > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
      > > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
      > to you
      > > so you know that I find no fault in him
      > > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
      > > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
      > him...
      > > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
      > king...
      > > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
      > > crucified; so they took Jesus
      > >
      >
      > Hi Keith,
      > I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
      > possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
      > the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
      > of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.
      >
      > I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
      > convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
      > the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
      > from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
      > someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
      > 99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
      > saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
      > separated from God.
      >
      > I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
      > description of the system in place in his time. It was called
      > the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
      > one and nine.
      >
      > IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
      > was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
      > and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
      > was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
      > Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
      > teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
      > the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
      > did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.
      >
      > Roger Mott
      > Waterloo, Iowa
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Some people see things that are and ask, Why?
      Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not?
      Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
      --George Carlin

      We have become all things to all people that we might confuse everybody!
      --Timothy George


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • mottrogere3
      Hi Terry, I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on the sum of the digits of one s Greek name is absurd. Seems it was ancient
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 27, 2008
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        Hi Terry,

        I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on
        the "sum of the digits" of one's Greek name is absurd. Seems it was
        ancient mathematicians childplay like rock/paper/scissors. And they
        kept changing the rules to change the outcome. They also had a rule
        of 7, counting only one of the recurring Greek letters in a name,
        etc. etc.

        However, I am convinced that the NT and OT use "numeric's" to convey
        certain meaning as I stated a few examples from the NT in my previous
        post.

        The resident expert who spurred my interest in gematria is Michael
        Grondin. He has also carried it into the Coptic alphabet. He
        recently posted on the Gthomas list that he has created an Excel
        spreadsheet which automatically calculates the gematria value for
        certain words. No, I have not read any books on 1st century gematria
        practices but perhaps when Mike gets back, he will post some
        references.

        Roger Mott
        Waterloo, Iowa


        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Larm"
        <terry.larm@...> wrote:
        >
        > Roger,
        >
        > Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in
        Hippolytus
        > about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek
        gematria in
        > a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy),
        this alone
        > does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar
        negative
        > view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know
        about how
        > Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century.
        Do you
        > know of any first century views that I can look into?
        >
        > Thanks,
        >
        > Terry
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