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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?

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  • Terry Larm
    Roger, Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in a
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 25, 2008
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      Roger,

      Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus
      about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in
      a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy), this alone
      does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar negative
      view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know about how
      Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century. Do you
      know of any first century views that I can look into?

      Thanks,

      Terry

      On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM, mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...> wrote:

      > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>,
      > "Keith Yoder"
      > <klyoder5@...> wrote:
      > >
      > >snip<
      > > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
      > Pilate
      > > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
      > >
      > > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
      > they
      > > not be defiled from eating the Passover
      > > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
      > > charge do you bring...
      > > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
      > judge
      > > him...
      > > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
      > > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
      > to you
      > > so you know that I find no fault in him
      > > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
      > > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
      > him...
      > > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
      > king...
      > > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
      > > crucified; so they took Jesus
      > >
      >
      > Hi Keith,
      > I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
      > possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
      > the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
      > of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.
      >
      > I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
      > convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
      > the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
      > from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
      > someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
      > 99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
      > saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
      > separated from God.
      >
      > I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
      > description of the system in place in his time. It was called
      > the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
      > one and nine.
      >
      > IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
      > was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
      > and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
      > was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
      > Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
      > teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
      > the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
      > did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.
      >
      > Roger Mott
      > Waterloo, Iowa
      >
      >
      >



      --
      Some people see things that are and ask, Why?
      Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not?
      Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
      --George Carlin

      We have become all things to all people that we might confuse everybody!
      --Timothy George


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Butler
      Hello Keith, John and other John_Lit Listers,     Keith, in response to your theory about the meaning of the Jews in th Fourth Gospel, I would like to
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 26, 2008
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        Hello Keith, John and other John_Lit Listers,
            Keith, in response to your theory about the meaning of "the Jews" in th Fourth Gospel, I would like to add another observation to John Lupia's point, which agrees with you, that this term does not imply that every Hebrew or even every Hebrew leader was involved in a plot to kill Jesus. 
            I believe that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel were intentionally using signs (Greek words borrowed directly from the Septuagint) to communicate the truth of the Gospel using the sacred language of the Hebrews. (This was a practice commonly used in Rabbinical schools of that period.  It is a didactic method called "Midrash."  "The Jews" (Ioudaioi) is a term borrowed, in my opinion, from Nehemiah 2: 16.  "The officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing; I had not yet told the Jews, the priests, the nobles, the officials, and the rest that were to do the work."
           Your theory that "the 'sum of the digits reducing to 9' as a sign of a group separated from God" is consistent with my theory that this term is, indeed, a sign, the meaning of which must be discerned by the reader through careful study and reflection.  It points to a privileged, but uninformed group of leaders who are incapable of seeing or acting in a way that establishes or re-establishes a relationship with God.  It is not as is so often assumed, a condemnation of the people or belief system of an entire nation or race of people.
        Tom Butler



        ----- Original Message ----
        From: mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...>
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:28:30 PM
        Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?


        --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Yoder"
        <klyoder5@.. .> wrote:
        >
        >snip<
        > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
        Pilate
        > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
        >
        > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
        they
        > not be defiled from eating the Passover
        > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
        > charge do you bring...
        > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
        judge
        > him...
        > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
        > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
        to you
        > so you know that I find no fault in him
        > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
        > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
        him...
        > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
        king...
        > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
        > crucified; so they took Jesus
        >

        Hi Keith,
        I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
        possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
        the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
        of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.

        I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
        convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
        the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
        from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
        someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
        99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
        saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
        separated from God.

        I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
        description of the system in place in his time. It was called
        the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
        one and nine.

        IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
        was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
        and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
        was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
        Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
        teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
        the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
        did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.

        Roger Mott
        Waterloo, Iowa



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • mottrogere3
        Hi Terry, I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on the sum of the digits of one s Greek name is absurd. Seems it was ancient
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 27, 2008
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          Hi Terry,

          I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on
          the "sum of the digits" of one's Greek name is absurd. Seems it was
          ancient mathematicians childplay like rock/paper/scissors. And they
          kept changing the rules to change the outcome. They also had a rule
          of 7, counting only one of the recurring Greek letters in a name,
          etc. etc.

          However, I am convinced that the NT and OT use "numeric's" to convey
          certain meaning as I stated a few examples from the NT in my previous
          post.

          The resident expert who spurred my interest in gematria is Michael
          Grondin. He has also carried it into the Coptic alphabet. He
          recently posted on the Gthomas list that he has created an Excel
          spreadsheet which automatically calculates the gematria value for
          certain words. No, I have not read any books on 1st century gematria
          practices but perhaps when Mike gets back, he will post some
          references.

          Roger Mott
          Waterloo, Iowa


          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Larm"
          <terry.larm@...> wrote:
          >
          > Roger,
          >
          > Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in
          Hippolytus
          > about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek
          gematria in
          > a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy),
          this alone
          > does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar
          negative
          > view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know
          about how
          > Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century.
          Do you
          > know of any first century views that I can look into?
          >
          > Thanks,
          >
          > Terry
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