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Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?

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  • mottrogere3
    ... Pilate ... they ... judge ... to you ... him... ... king... ... Hi Keith, I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for possible
    Message 1 of 14 , Jun 25, 2008
      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Keith Yoder"
      <klyoder5@...> wrote:
      >
      >snip<
      > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
      Pilate
      > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
      >
      > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
      they
      > not be defiled from eating the Passover
      > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
      > charge do you bring...
      > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
      judge
      > him...
      > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
      > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
      to you
      > so you know that I find no fault in him
      > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
      > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
      him...
      > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
      king...
      > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
      > crucified; so they took Jesus
      >

      Hi Keith,
      I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
      possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
      the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
      of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.

      I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
      convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
      the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
      from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
      someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
      99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
      saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
      separated from God.

      I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
      description of the system in place in his time. It was called
      the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
      one and nine.

      IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
      was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
      and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
      was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
      Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
      teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
      the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
      did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.

      Roger Mott
      Waterloo, Iowa
    • John Lupia
      Hi Roger: Welcome! Just a quick note about a much often misconstrued rhetorical figure or expression in John the Jews = the majority of the Jewish religious
      Message 2 of 14 , Jun 25, 2008
        Hi Roger:

        Welcome! Just a quick note about a much often misconstrued rhetorical figure or expression in John "the Jews" = the majority of the Jewish religious leaders, not every Jew, but some, and, only possibly as well, many. So when you read the Jews" it never means all, but only some, or perhaps, many.

        John N. Lupia III
        New Jersey, USA; Beirut, Lebanon
        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Roman-Catholic-News/
        God Bless Everyone


        --- On Wed, 6/25/08, mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...> wrote:

        > From: mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...>
        > Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?
        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        > Date: Wednesday, June 25, 2008, 11:28 PM
        > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Keith
        > Yoder"
        > <klyoder5@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >snip<
        > > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the
        > trial before
        > Pilate
        > > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
        > >
        > > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the
        > praetorium that
        > they
        > > not be defiled from eating the Passover
        > > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS)
        > and said What
        > > charge do you bring...
        > > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You
        > take him and
        > judge
        > > him...
        > > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no
        > fault in him
        > > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I
        > bring him out
        > to you
        > > so you know that I find no fault in him
        > > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the
        > man.
        > > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take
        > and crucify
        > him...
        > > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I
        > crucify your
        > king...
        > > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS)
        > that he be
        > > crucified; so they took Jesus
        > >
        >
        > Hi Keith,
        > I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the
        > archives for
        > possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your
        > observation that
        > the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the
        > beginning of the trial
        > of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel
        > of John.
        >
        > I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9
        > times to
        > convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has
        > used
        > the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign
        > of a group separated
        > from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to
        > indicate
        > someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO.
        > Luke used
        > 99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a
        > "need to be
        > saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to
        > represent a group
        > separated from God.
        >
        > I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read
        > Hippolytus
        > description of the system in place in his time. It was
        > called
        > the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced
        > to a number between
        > one and nine.
        >
        > IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus
        > crucified
        > was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of
        > Arimathaea
        > and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus
        > himself
        > was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes.
        > But, the High
        > Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed
        > Jesus
        > teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and
        > persecute
        > the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who
        > apparently
        > did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.
        >
        > Roger Mott
        > Waterloo, Iowa
      • Terry Larm
        Roger, Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in a
        Message 3 of 14 , Jun 25, 2008
          Roger,

          Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in Hippolytus
          about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek gematria in
          a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy), this alone
          does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar negative
          view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know about how
          Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century. Do you
          know of any first century views that I can look into?

          Thanks,

          Terry

          On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 11:28 AM, mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...> wrote:

          > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>,
          > "Keith Yoder"
          > <klyoder5@...> wrote:
          > >
          > >snip<
          > > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
          > Pilate
          > > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
          > >
          > > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
          > they
          > > not be defiled from eating the Passover
          > > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
          > > charge do you bring...
          > > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
          > judge
          > > him...
          > > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
          > > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
          > to you
          > > so you know that I find no fault in him
          > > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
          > > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
          > him...
          > > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
          > king...
          > > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
          > > crucified; so they took Jesus
          > >
          >
          > Hi Keith,
          > I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
          > possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
          > the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
          > of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.
          >
          > I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
          > convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
          > the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
          > from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
          > someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
          > 99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
          > saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
          > separated from God.
          >
          > I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
          > description of the system in place in his time. It was called
          > the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
          > one and nine.
          >
          > IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
          > was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
          > and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
          > was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
          > Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
          > teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
          > the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
          > did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.
          >
          > Roger Mott
          > Waterloo, Iowa
          >
          >
          >



          --
          Some people see things that are and ask, Why?
          Some people dream of things that never were and ask, Why not?
          Some people have to go to work and don't have time for all that.
          --George Carlin

          We have become all things to all people that we might confuse everybody!
          --Timothy George


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Tom Butler
          Hello Keith, John and other John_Lit Listers,     Keith, in response to your theory about the meaning of the Jews in th Fourth Gospel, I would like to
          Message 4 of 14 , Jun 26, 2008
            Hello Keith, John and other John_Lit Listers,
                Keith, in response to your theory about the meaning of "the Jews" in th Fourth Gospel, I would like to add another observation to John Lupia's point, which agrees with you, that this term does not imply that every Hebrew or even every Hebrew leader was involved in a plot to kill Jesus. 
                I believe that the writer(s) of the Fourth Gospel were intentionally using signs (Greek words borrowed directly from the Septuagint) to communicate the truth of the Gospel using the sacred language of the Hebrews. (This was a practice commonly used in Rabbinical schools of that period.  It is a didactic method called "Midrash."  "The Jews" (Ioudaioi) is a term borrowed, in my opinion, from Nehemiah 2: 16.  "The officials did not know where I had gone or what I was doing; I had not yet told the Jews, the priests, the nobles, the officials, and the rest that were to do the work."
               Your theory that "the 'sum of the digits reducing to 9' as a sign of a group separated from God" is consistent with my theory that this term is, indeed, a sign, the meaning of which must be discerned by the reader through careful study and reflection.  It points to a privileged, but uninformed group of leaders who are incapable of seeing or acting in a way that establishes or re-establishes a relationship with God.  It is not as is so often assumed, a condemnation of the people or belief system of an entire nation or race of people.
            Tom Butler



            ----- Original Message ----
            From: mottrogere3 <mottrogere3@...>
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 8:28:30 PM
            Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Did the Jews Crucify Jesus in John 19:18?


            --- In johannine_literatur e@yahoogroups. com, "Keith Yoder"
            <klyoder5@.. .> wrote:
            >
            >snip<
            > 1. Working back from 19:16 to the beginning of the trial before
            Pilate
            > in 18:28, the plural pronoun AUTOI appears 9 times:
            >
            > * 18:28 ...and they (AUTOI) did not enter the praetorium that
            they
            > not be defiled from eating the Passover
            > * 18:29 then Pilate went out to them (PROS AUTOUS) and said What
            > charge do you bring...
            > * 18:31 then Pilate said to them (AUTOIS), You take him and
            judge
            > him...
            > * 18:38 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS) I find no fault in him
            > * 19:04 ... and he says to them (AUTOIS), look I bring him out
            to you
            > so you know that I find no fault in him
            > * 19:05 ...and he says to them (AUTOIS), look, the man.
            > * 19:06 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), you take and crucify
            him...
            > * 19:15 ...Pilate says to them (AUTOIS), shall I crucify your
            king...
            > * 19:16 ...then he delivered him to them (AUTOIS) that he be
            > crucified; so they took Jesus
            >

            Hi Keith,
            I am a new subscriber to this list and reviewed the archives for
            possible discussion topics. I was intrigued by your observation that
            the Greek word "AUTOIS" is used 9 times at the beginning of the trial
            of Jesus in to the delivery for crucifixion in the Gospel of John.

            I do not think that the word AUTOIS was deliberately used 9 times to
            convey a message. The Gospel of John and Revelation has used
            the "sum of the digits reducing to 9" as a sign of a group separated
            from God. 153, 666 are all examples that are used to indicate
            someone or a group that needs to brought back to God IMO. Luke used
            99 in a good sense whist he uses the 9 lepers and 18 in a "need to be
            saved" sense. The Gospel of Thomas uses 99 to represent a group
            separated from God.

            I was not so much interested in Greek Gematria till I read Hippolytus
            description of the system in place in his time. It was called
            the "rule of 9". Greek proper names were reduced to a number between
            one and nine.

            IMO, saying that the leadership of the Jews wanted Jesus crucified
            was not true for all of the high ranking Jews. Joseph of Arimathaea
            and Nicodemus are Jews who clearly supported Jesus. Jesus himself
            was critical of some Pharisees, Sadducees, and scribes. But, the High
            Priest Caiaphas, even after the crucifixion, still opposed Jesus
            teachings as he sent Saul, a Pharisee, out to arrest and persecute
            the early Christians. Gamaliel was a high ranking Jew who apparently
            did not seem to want to persecute the early Christians.

            Roger Mott
            Waterloo, Iowa



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • mottrogere3
            Hi Terry, I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on the sum of the digits of one s Greek name is absurd. Seems it was ancient
            Message 5 of 14 , Jun 27, 2008
              Hi Terry,

              I agree with Hippolytus that stating judgments and prophecy based on
              the "sum of the digits" of one's Greek name is absurd. Seems it was
              ancient mathematicians childplay like rock/paper/scissors. And they
              kept changing the rules to change the outcome. They also had a rule
              of 7, counting only one of the recurring Greek letters in a name,
              etc. etc.

              However, I am convinced that the NT and OT use "numeric's" to convey
              certain meaning as I stated a few examples from the NT in my previous
              post.

              The resident expert who spurred my interest in gematria is Michael
              Grondin. He has also carried it into the Coptic alphabet. He
              recently posted on the Gthomas list that he has created an Excel
              spreadsheet which automatically calculates the gematria value for
              certain words. No, I have not read any books on 1st century gematria
              practices but perhaps when Mike gets back, he will post some
              references.

              Roger Mott
              Waterloo, Iowa


              --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Terry Larm"
              <terry.larm@...> wrote:
              >
              > Roger,
              >
              > Thanks for the interesting comment. I just read the section in
              Hippolytus
              > about the rule of 9. Although Hippolytus is presenting the Greek
              gematria in
              > a negative light (as he is attempting to refute it as a heresy),
              this alone
              > does not mean that the author of the Fourth Gospel had a similar
              negative
              > view of gematria. I am curious, however, about what we might know
              about how
              > Greek gematria was viewed by various groups in the first century.
              Do you
              > know of any first century views that I can look into?
              >
              > Thanks,
              >
              > Terry
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