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Further re chiasm

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  • Bob MacDonald
    Kym has sent me part of his structure. I can t send email to him from this address so I am letting him and the list know that I will try to confirm his detail
    Message 1 of 21 , Nov 24, 2006
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      Kym has sent me part of his structure. I can't send email to him from this
      address so I am letting him and the list know that I will try to confirm his
      detail in a short passage and will publish the result later next week.

      Kym: Your pdf is readable - I will examine it when I have done some more
      detailed work.

      Bob

      Bob MacDonald
      Victoria BC
      http://gx.ca
      http://bmd.gx.ca
    • Bob MacDonald
      The structure is far more complex than can be managed in a chiasm alone. There are parallel structures as well and both wide and tight circles - but many
      Message 2 of 21 , Nov 26, 2006
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        The structure is far more complex than can be managed in a chiasm alone.
        There are parallel structures as well and both wide and tight circles - but
        many complex themes in this short section. My thesis is that it is held
        together by the issue of belief - but the larger words and concepts
        [Father-Son, life from the dead, judgment, the four witnesses: John, the
        works of the Son, the word of the Father, Moses] seem to me must be used to
        justify any conclusion as to its poetic or rhetorical form.

        I have posted a very colourful rendition at http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-2.jpg
        (357k). I have marked each word with different colours to highlight the
        usage patterns. It is not hard to mark with even more precision - if anyone
        is interested in helping, I can arrange for access to the tool I am using.

        I hope you can read it. The jpeg is a bit small, but if you bring it up with
        a picture manager, it expands reasonably well to a larger type. I have also
        put out a pdf - but it will be a larger download (2.5m).

        Bob MacDonald
        Victoria BC
        http://gx.ca
        http://bmd.gx.ca
      • Kym Smith
        Dear Bob, One of the `problems with John, as a number of commentators note, is its relatively short vocabulary. I suspect this is in part because of all the
        Message 3 of 21 , Nov 26, 2006
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          Dear Bob,

          One of the `problems' with John, as a number of commentators note, is
          its relatively short vocabulary. I suspect this is in part because of
          all the paralleling of terms and themes within micro-chiasms as well
          as across macro-chiasms. It is this shortage of terms that makes the
          finding – or forcing – chiastic structures on the text relatively
          easy. I have had to review and refine many of the formations I have
          found. There would be ample scholars on this list who see the finding
          of chiastic structures as much too subjective to be reliable. Their
          caution is well placed. To deny them altogether, however, is to deny
          that typically Hebrew form of writing which has given beauty to much
          of the Scriptures – e.g. the parallelism of the Psalms – and to miss
          out on some of the most profound insights they offer.

          What I am saying is that where the highlighting of similar words may
          help pick up some structures. However, John's frequent repetition of
          words (e.g. `world' in ch. 17) and his pairing of words from different
          roots but with similar meanings (`fish' in ch. 21) – not to mention
          his paralleling of themes without necessarily matching words will make
          it hard for a computer program which is not likely to be looking much
          past similar words to pick up the more complex connections.

          I am not surprised that your program indicates that 'The structure is
          far more complex than can be managed in a chiasm alone'. But we must
          remeber that John did not use a computer to put the gospel together.

          As the file I sent to you shows, John 5 is not looked at as a whole
          but it contains four individual structures, a fourfold `sign' (1-9a)
          and three sevenfold formations (9b-18; 19-30; 31-47). But these only
          become clear in the context of the whole book and especially the 41
          structures of the two concentric macro-chiasms.

          Perhaps I should offer a copy of my book on the structure of John's
          gospel to someone on the list who is not anti-chiastic structures but
          who is also healthily skeptical of them. The proviso is that that
          person will, within a reasonable time – a few months, say – do a
          review for the list. If someone is willing to do so let me know
          off-list and we'll go from there. Perhaps then we might also avoid the
          deafening silence on the list each time I make a contribution to it.
          It would be reasonable for me also to advise the list of who it is to
          whom I've sent my book.

          Kym Smith
          Adelaide
          South Australia
          khs@...




          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
          <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
          >
          > The structure is far more complex than can be managed in a chiasm alone.
          > There are parallel structures as well and both wide and tight
          circles - but
          > many complex themes in this short section. My thesis is that it is held
          > together by the issue of belief - but the larger words and concepts
          > [Father-Son, life from the dead, judgment, the four witnesses: John, the
          > works of the Son, the word of the Father, Moses] seem to me must be
          used to
          > justify any conclusion as to its poetic or rhetorical form.
          >
          > I have posted a very colourful rendition at http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-2.jpg
          > (357k). I have marked each word with different colours to highlight the
          > usage patterns. It is not hard to mark with even more precision - if
          anyone
          > is interested in helping, I can arrange for access to the tool I am
          using.
          >
          > I hope you can read it. The jpeg is a bit small, but if you bring it
          up with
          > a picture manager, it expands reasonably well to a larger type. I
          have also
          > put out a pdf - but it will be a larger download (2.5m).
          >
          > Bob MacDonald
          > Victoria BC
          > http://gx.ca
          > http://bmd.gx.ca
          >
        • Bob MacDonald
          Kym Here is a review of my thoughts on just one section of your work I began with my own bias in 19-45 -http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-1.jpg shows my first rough cut
          Message 4 of 21 , Nov 26, 2006
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            Kym

            Here is a review of my thoughts on just one section of your work

            I began with my own bias in 19-45 -http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-1.jpg shows my
            first rough cut at what I think are two related structures: 19-30
            highlighting belief and 31-47 highlighting unbelief. I was not satisfied
            with the detail - there were 100s of unpaired and obviously important
            concepts.

            http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-2.jpg expanded this to show how possibly the original
            contrast is there but that the structures surrounding it are much more
            complex.

            I traced your 7 deep chiasm in http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-3.jpg. I realize you
            are dealing only in black and white so it is harder to confirm structure or
            to see it. There is certainly a whole thought in this section, confirmed
            with a much more detailed view in http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-4.jpg .

            The next step is to review the content and see if it matches your sevenfold
            subdivision.

            The whole section is about witness. This is your structure as in image 3:
            a. witness to himself - which you balance with the last verse - how will you
            believe my declarations.
            b. you then have the 'other witness' which you balance against Moses.
            c. you have John balanced against Moses
            d. then you have not accepting witness from a man (semantically part of the
            John section) balanced against receiving glory from one another
            e. the section on John and rejoicing in his light balanced against the
            acceptance of one who comes in his own name - I don't see how this can
            balance against John
            f. the section on the works - the next witness balanced against not
            receiving glory from men
            g. two inner sections

            There are some matches in your scheme, but they are coincidental - e.g. the
            phrase peri emon occurs several times - there is insufficient structural
            reason to link a (v31) to a'(v47) using these words. It is more likely that
            peri emon is just part of the main issue - that the current audience does
            not believe in Jesus and he is summoning his witnesses - they all testify
            concerning him.

            If you look at my last image, you can see that I have matched almost all the
            major word pairings and repetitions and the resulting structure reveals
            matching semantic and rhetorical form.

            In particular note two embedded paragraphs that are of the nature of a brief
            excursus - one on John - the human witness; the other on the Father, the
            unseen witness. These surround the key witness which is the works that Jesus
            is to complete - using the keyword complete - which is picked up in the
            final word of Jesus from the cross. Also the framing of the structure is
            circular in many ways but it does not correspond well with what you have
            proposed.

            The final section is all about the Scriptures and Moses - and what the
            people think of it and how they get glory from one another - no need to link
            part of the excursus on John to this section. Though they are somewhat
            related, I cannot see it as part of a significant structure.

            It's late here so that's all I can do for now - I have taken 3 days away
            from my psalm translations and I am having Hebrew withdrawal symptoms.

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            Victoria BC
            http://gx.ca
            http://bmd.gx.ca
          • Fabbri Marco
            Jack, I would raise two points about your reconstruction. 1) The beginning of 19:38 is META TAUTA. Isn t this a common expression? I would say that it is
            Message 5 of 21 , Nov 27, 2006
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              Jack,

              I would raise two points about your reconstruction.

              1) The beginning of 19:38 is META TAUTA.

              Isn't this a common expression? I would say that it is hardly representative
              of a style.

              I find it in John 3:22; 5:1; 5:14; 6:1; 7:1; 13:7. Are all these text by the
              same hand of John 21? That would be very hard to believe.

              2) You suggest that the Gospel once began with 1:19.

              However, 1:19 starts wtih the following words: KAI hAUTH ESTIN hH MARTURIA
              TOU IWANNOU.

              Both the conjunction KAI and the demonstrative hAUTH point back to something
              that has already been mentioned. Most scholars think that the Gospel once
              started with John 1:6-7, then it continued with John 1:19ff.

              In this way the Gospel would begin so: EGENTO ANQRWPOS APESTALMENOS PARA
              QEOU ONOMA AUTWi IWANNHS.

              Thus we would understand why 1:19 speaks of hH MARTURIA as it were already
              known to the reader.

              We would also have a beginning close to the standards of Biblical narrative:
              compare 1 Sam 1:1 in the OT and Luke 1:5 in the NT. It fits classical Hebrew
              prose to begin a story saying: WAYHI 'ISH. Greek translators render it KAI
              EGENETO ANQRWPOS. By the time the NT was written, such beginnings would be
              well known.

              The scholars who suggest an original form of the Gospel starting with 1:6-7;
              1:19ff, suggest that when the prologue was added to the Gospel verses 1:8
              and 1:15 were written. The function of 1:8 is to link the historical
              character of John with the beginning of KOSMOS as told in the preceding
              verses; the function of 1:15 would be that of providing a parallel to 1:6-8
              within the circular structure of the prologue (or the chiastic structure,
              though I am unwilling to use the word chiasm for a structure of more than 4
              elements). So the redactor used the same words that already appeared in 1:29
              and used them in 1:15.

              I would like to know if you have objections to this reconstruction.

              Marco

              On 11/24/06, Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
              >
              > (�)
              >
              > There is a redaction at John 19:38 which begins in the same manner as John
              >
              > 21:1 suggesting, to me, that the same copyist/redactor did both. I think
              > the original beginning of John was at 1:19. Going with my theory that ch
              > 21
              > was originally the ending of Mark and then redacted and appended to John,
              > I
              > also look at the Prologue and see no certain Aramaic origin. I do see
              > Mark's
              > use of PROS HMAS and this is, as Burney points out, confined to Mark and
              > John. Mark is missing a conclusion. John has an extra conclusion. Mark
              > anticipates a first resurrection appearance in Galilee and John 21 without
              >
              > the "third appearance" editorial insert at 21:14 is that first appearance.
              >
              > In Mark, Peter denies Jesus three times. In John (21:15-17) Peter affirms
              > his love three times. That completed another Markan bracket. In Mark, the
              > shepherd is struck down and the sheep scattered. In John 21 Peter becomes
              > the new shepherd..another Markan bracket. In Mark, the first words spoken
              > to a disciple are "follow me." In John 21 the LAST words spoken are
              > "follow
              > me" (Jm 21:22) another completed Markan bracket.
              >
              > If John 21 was originally the first resurrection appearance account of the
              >
              > ending of Mark, Mark would become unified literarily if the appendage is
              > restored to Mark..less a few Johannine phrases. It does. As an Aramaicist,
              >
              > I am the "follow the Aramaic" guy and also find support in this supported
              > by
              > Burney. If John 21 was removed from Mark, edited with a few Johannine
              > signature phrases, we should see typically Markan Aramaisms noted in Mark
              > and John with none or little in Matthew and Luke. I find this in Mark's
              > frequent use of the historic present resulting from Aramaic narrative
              > participle also frequent in John and John 21. There is also a connection
              > between John and Mark's use of imperfects, the rare use of de and frequent
              >
              > use of kai, the partitive APO in 21:10 used by Mark at 5:35, 6:43, 7:4 and
              >
              > 12:2.
              >
              > My reconstruction of Aramaic "proto-John" is an ongoing project but I see
              > the pen..er..reed..of Mark in John 21 and believe this was appended to
              > soften or remove the anti-Petrine theme.
              >
              > > Why, for example, is it
              > > more likely that these three units of scripture were
              > > added to the text by a redactor or redactors than by
              > > the "original author or authors"?
              >
              > Why were the following redactions, editorial inserts and glosses added?
              > Theology.
              >
              > 1:22-25 added by redactor
              >
              > 1:30 added by redactor
              >
              > 1:32 added by redactor
              >
              > 2:1-10 from "Signs Gospel" appended with 2:11 on later redaction
              >
              > 2:15 "..and the sheep, and the oxen" gloss
              >
              > 2:17 Early John was KATAFAGETAI (will consume me), changed by redactor to
              > aorist
              >
              > to conform to Ps 69:9
              >
              > 2:23-24 redaction from "signs"
              >
              > 3:3 from older baptismal tradition
              >
              > 3:5 "water" added by editor
              >
              > 3:13 added
              >
              > 3:16 added
              >
              > Order of Ch 4 thru 7 in PJ was 4, 6, 5, 7.
              >
              > 4:1 "the Lord knew" gloss
              >
              > 4:2 redaction, contradicts PJ 3:22
              >
              > 4:46-54 from "signs"
              >
              > Ch 5 should follow chapter 6
              >
              > 5:4 redactor (not in Bodmer)
              >
              > 5:25 redaction
              >
              > 5:27b "because he is the Son of Man" added
              >
              > 5:28-29 redaction
              >
              > 5:25 and 5:28-29 is editor's redaction of future realization over original
              >
              > PJ's
              >
              > present realization
              >
              > 6:1-15 redaction from "signs"
              >
              > 6:23 gloss
              >
              > 6:27 editor's "future" addition
              >
              > 6:39-44 editor's
              >
              > 6:51-58 added by editor to correlate Bread of Life with Eucharist
              >
              > 7:1 editor's
              >
              > 7:8 OUPW was originally OUK in PJ
              >
              > 7:15-24 was originally at end of ch.5 in PJ
              >
              > 7:53-8:11 part of a late redaction (3rd C). First occurs in C.Bezae.
              > Interrupts flow from 7:52 to 8:12.
              >
              > 8:12-59 original PJ material but for:
              >
              > 8:13 added
              >
              > 8:14a added
              >
              > 8:14b is original, also GThom 24
              >
              > 8:15 added
              >
              > 8:17a added
              >
              > 8:17b original PJ from Deut. 19:15
              >
              > 8:18 added
              >
              > 8:19a added
              >
              > 8:19b original PJ also in Q and Lk 10:22
              >
              > 8:20a added
              >
              > 8:20b original PJ..also Egerton
              >
              > 8:21b "and shall dies in your sins" added
              >
              > 8:21c "where I am going" original PJ..also Apoc James 2:23-27
              >
              > 8:22 original PJ..also GThom 38
              >
              > 8:23-24 added
              >
              > 8:25 Original PJ..also GThom 43
              >
              > 8:26-28 added
              >
              > 8:31a added
              >
              > 8:31b orig PJ and GThom 19
              >
              > 8:32 orig PJ
              >
              > 8:33 added
              >
              > 8:34a added
              >
              > 8:34b orig PJ
              >
              > 8:35 Orig. PJ
              >
              > 8:36 added
              >
              > 9:22 would have to have been edited after
              >
              > the Birkat ha-minim in 85CE
              >
              > 9:35 "signs" redaction
              >
              > 10:18d "this commandment have I received..." goes with 10:27-29
              >
              > 10:19 goes with Ch 9.
              >
              > 11:2 added
              >
              > 11:45-50 "signs" redaction
              >
              > 12:44-50 goes with Ch 9 except for editor's 12:48.
              >
              > 13:31 All of Ch 17 originally here
              >
              > 14:30 prefaced 18:1 in PJ
              >
              > Chapters 15 and 16 preceded 13:36-14:31 in PJ
              >
              > 19:34 added
              >
              > 20:11-31 orig. PJ with no parallels in synoptics. PJ ended here
              >
              > Ch 21 editor's appendix
              >
              > Glosses:
              >
              > 4:1 "the Lord Knew"
              >
              > 4:2
              >
              > 4:11b "Sir.....
              >
              > 5:4
              >
              > 5:27 "because he is the..
              >
              > 5:40
              >
              > 6:6*
              >
              > 6:23
              >
              > 6:27
              >
              > 6:51-58
              >
              > 6:71*
              >
              > 8:21 "and shall die in your sins
              >
              > 8:27*
              >
              > 8:31a
              >
              > 11:2 added by late redactor to conflate Mary Magd with a prostitute but at
              >
              > odds with Luke 7:36
              >
              > 11:25-26
              >
              > 12:33*
              >
              > 12:47-48
              >
              > 13:10 "not save to wash his feet
              >
              > 13:11*
              >
              > 14:30 "much"
              >
              > 16:16 "because I go to the father
              >
              > 18:9
              >
              > 18:32*
              >
              > 19:34-35
              >
              >
              > > As you may recall, my theory is that the Fourth
              > > Gospel is a careful compilation of Midrashic
              > > commentaries on the Jesus tradition. These
              > > commentaries use the language of the Septuagint
              > > version of the Torah to expound upon the meaning of
              > > various elements of the Jesus tradition. The purpose
              > > of the compilation (perhaps the very purpose of the
              > > community from which these commentaries came) appears
              > > to be the creation a new Torah for the new age.
              > > In other words I think these writers were
              > > intentionally writing scripture as they expounded upon
              > > the meaning of the Jesus tradition. They were "doing
              > > theology" or "reflecting Christologically" before
              > > those terms had meaning in most Christian communities.
              > > Consistent with my theory is what I discern as
              > > evidence that there is a second story line throughout
              > > the gospel, discernable when the Greek terms borrowed
              > > from the Septuagint are identified as "signs" (semeia)
              > > and which tell how Jesus systematically replaced
              > > ("recycled?" "redefined?" "transformed?") every
              > > element of the Mosaic tradition: the temple, the
              > > festivals of sacrifice and the priesthood.
              > > Consideration of the Prologue and Chapter 21 is
              > > important to this theory (or method of study), which I
              > > have set forth in part in this space before. For that
              > > reason, I would be willing to argue against the idea
              > > that they are evidence of a redactor or redactors
              > > (that is, some one or some group other than those
              > > responsible for creating and shaping the rest of the
              > > text.)
              >
              > John, as does Mark, has a very profound Aramaic background but the
              > Prologue
              > does not. I think it was appended as an antiphonal hyms chanted between a
              > lector and the communicants before reading the Gospel which began at
              > 1:19....but here is the kicker. I think the anti-Petrine Aramaic
              > "proto-John" shortly after its translation to Greek...a much smaller text
              > than the present Greek canonical John actually stimulated the composition
              > of
              > the PRO-Petrine Ur-Markus. The Aramaic or translation Greek PJ was used,
              > perhaps, as a template around which the much larger Greek version was
              > composed around 90ish CE. It is easy to see how the Prologue, as happened
              > elsewhere in the NT for liturgical elements, became attached. The use of
              > the ending of Mark, removed and edited, as an ending of John had a purpose
              >
              > of harmonizing John to Mark to remove anti-Petrine themes hence the
              > "blend"
              > of Johannine and Markan style discernable from the rest of the Gospel and
              > observed by other scholars.
              >
              > > Would you or other listers be interested in a
              > > dialogue or debate on this issue [Redactor(s) or No
              > > Redactor(s)]?
              >
              > That is what the list is for and we would be interested in good
              > referencing
              > and citations.
              >
              > > (I confess that I do not recognize the other term
              > > you are using, "the Pericope de Adultura." Do you
              > > mean Jn. 7:53 - 8:11 entitled "The Woman Caught in
              > > Adultery" by the editors of the NRSV? If so, I would
              > > be glad to include this pericope in our dialogue /
              > > debate along with any other pericopes, should you or
              > > others seeking to support or reject the idea that this
              > > and/or other passages reflect or do not reflect the
              > > work of one or more redactors.)
              >
              > Such a dialogue is in keeping with the purpose of the list as long as
              > standard canons of scholarship are involved.
              >
              > Shlama
              >
              > Jack
              >
              > Jack Kilmon
              > San Antonio, Texas
              >
              > >
              > > Yours in Christ's service,
              > > Tom Butler
              > >
              > >
              > > --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@... <jkilmon%40historian.net>> wrote:
              > >
              > >>
              > >> ----- Original Message -----
              > >> From: "Tom Butler" <pastor_t@... <pastor_t%40pacbell.net>>
              > >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature%40yahoogroups.com>
              > >
              > >> Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:22 PM
              > >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] bouncing?
              > >>
              > >>
              > >> > Jack,
              > >> > I trust that your test, at least with reference
              > >> > to my e-mail address, proved that you are not
              > >> > bouncing.
              > >> > I wonder about the silence on the J-Lit list.
              > >> > Are we all so busy that discussion of the Gospel >
              > >> has been placed on hold or has a different list > >
              > > been created where the discussion continues?
              > >> >
              > >> > Tom Butler
              > >> > Sparks, Nevada
              > >>
              > >> I think it may be everyone waiting for someone else
              > >> to start a thread combined with busy times. I, for
              > >> one, would like to hear..er..read...some text
              > >> critical opinions concerning the redactors of
              > >> 4G and opinions on the addition of the prologue,
              > >> chapter 21 and the Pericope de Adultera. Perhaps
              > >> some of our members have studied these.
              > >>
              > >> Jack Kilmon
              > >> San Antonio, Texas
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              > > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
              > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              > >
              > >
              > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature-subscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature-unsubscribe%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com<johannine_literature-owner%40yahoogroups.com>
              > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >



              --
              _______________________________________
              Prof. Marco V. Fabbri
              Dipartimento di Sacra Scrittura
              Pontificia Universit� della Santa Croce
              Piazza S. Apollinare 49
              I-00186 Roma
              Italy

              e-mail: mv.fabbri@...
              fax: ++39-06-68164400


              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Bob MacDonald
              Kym I am trying to take your thesis seriously and I am doing a detailed response of this one small piece. You indicated to me that the section of John 5 is
              Message 6 of 21 , Nov 27, 2006
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                Kym

                I am trying to take your thesis seriously and I am doing a detailed response
                of this one small piece. You indicated to me that the section of John 5 is
                part of the hand - one finger, I think. I have shrunk the image of the
                structures and repeated it to see what fingers of two hands might look like
                (see http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-6.jpg)

                If one finger only, then 10 more similar structures must be found - that's a
                lot of text and it doesn't fit: John is a little less than 20,000 words;
                chapter 5 - this part is 650 words which I have fit into about 390 nodes;
                That would make the fingers 6500/20000 or more than 25% of the text. You
                must have meant something else.

                Note also http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-5.jpg now includes the middle of chapter 5
                showing some connections between the middle and end - all of these are
                meaningful connections e.g. concerning glory and honour, the acts that the
                Son has to finish, and the response of the people - belief or unbelief, whom
                you accept, whom you are willing to glory in.

                Though your thesis is extreme - specifically because it claims that the
                Gospel does not do what text normally does, namely be heard or seen or
                performed, but it purports to paint an image. It could be a radical act of
                adoration and is therefore not ruled out of court like the modulo-19
                arithmetic of some scholars in other traditions.

                You are not alone in assuming that words can make an image. George Herbert
                wrote a poem in the shape of an altar; and some artists have made images of
                words with great complexity long before the use of computers.

                In other words, your thesis does not deny the prime directive: that this
                Gospel was written by human beings conscious of what they were doing. So the
                images could then be imaged using the software that I have access to. With
                millions of variations on skin colour, I could even give it some
                verisimilitude.

                For those who like to see the Chi in the chiasm, there are a couple that are
                obvious in diagram 5 since I left them in the X form rather than indenting
                them. Maybe we go overboard with concentric structures. :)

                Bob

                Bob MacDonald
                Victoria BC
                http://gx.ca
                http://bmd.gx.ca
              • Kym Smith
                Bob, Thank you. Imagine vertical and horizontal axes, cross-shaped. From the top, the first six micro-chiasms (1:1-51) on the vertical axis represent the head
                Message 7 of 21 , Nov 28, 2006
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                  Bob,

                  Thank you.

                  Imagine vertical and horizontal axes, cross-shaped. From the top, the
                  first six micro-chiasms (1:1-51) on the vertical axis represent the
                  head (the head of a man - cf. Rev 13:18).

                  Then, on the horizontal axis, are the the forty-one structures from
                  2:1 - 11:44. These make up the hands. There are thirteen various-sized
                  micro-structures in the Signs and Discourses Macro-chiasm which
                  provide the spacing between the 'fingers'. The first and last signs
                  act as inclusios for the whole (2:1-11 and 11:43-44), the central
                  structure (and, therefore, focal point for the whole gospel) is
                  11:48-51. Between the second and third fingers on each 'hand' are
                  consecutive signs and/or discourses which indicate that something
                  should be there. That something-nothing, as I describe it, represents
                  the nail-holes/wounds in the hands. Between the other signs and
                  discourses are the twenty-eight sevenfold formations of the Dialogue
                  Macro-chiasm. Let me try to show this pictorially, I will use numbers
                  to represent the Dialogue formations; imagine them each as small
                  vertical columns along the whole structure which is positioned
                  horizontally.

                  s-2-d-3-d-3-s-s-3-s-3-(d)-3-d-3-d-s-3-d-3-d-2-s

                  Note that the two 'thumbs' (two segments hence two micro-chiasms) are
                  on the outsides. Therefore the 'hands' are palms forward.

                  The next three micro-chiasms from 11:45-12:50 with the nine from the
                  Farewell Discourse (chs 11-17) are again on the vertical axis and
                  these represent the ribcage. The Greek in 18:1 (i.e. immediately below
                  the ribcage where the spear thrust would have been) is important,
                  especially 'valley' which is 'a winter torrent' (it was not winter but
                  there was a 'torrent' from Christ's side).

                  The rest of the micro-structures (ten till 20:29) continue on the
                  vertical axis There are no distinguishing features so these represent
                  the rest of Jesus' body and legs.

                  I described the 'feet' - two micro-chiasms separated by the unique
                  tripple tristich parallelism and all contianed between the inclusios
                  of 20:30,31 and 21:25,24 - to Marco earlier. The division between the
                  feet could not be a chiastsic structure because that would confuse the
                  'image' - there could only be two feet. This little complex is placed
                  horizontally but centred on the vertical axis.

                  "<=>"

                  " for inclusios, < and > for the chiasms/'feet' and = for the parallelism.

                  Remeber that this is not a photograph but a stylistic representation.
                  The central structure is very important, to feed on this gospel is to
                  feed on Christ.

                  I must respond to your previous to me but do not have the time at this
                  moment.

                  Kym




                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Bob MacDonald
                  <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Kym
                  >
                  > I am trying to take your thesis seriously and I am doing a detailed
                  response
                  > of this one small piece. You indicated to me that the section of
                  John 5 is
                  > part of the hand - one finger, I think. I have shrunk the image of the
                  > structures and repeated it to see what fingers of two hands might
                  look like
                  > (see http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-6.jpg)
                  >
                  > If one finger only, then 10 more similar structures must be found -
                  that's a
                  > lot of text and it doesn't fit: John is a little less than 20,000 words;
                  > chapter 5 - this part is 650 words which I have fit into about 390
                  nodes;
                  > That would make the fingers 6500/20000 or more than 25% of the text.
                  You
                  > must have meant something else.
                  >
                  > Note also http://bmd.gx.ca/john5-5.jpg now includes the middle of
                  chapter 5
                  > showing some connections between the middle and end - all of these are
                  > meaningful connections e.g. concerning glory and honour, the acts
                  that the
                  > Son has to finish, and the response of the people - belief or
                  unbelief, whom
                  > you accept, whom you are willing to glory in.
                  >
                  > Though your thesis is extreme - specifically because it claims that the
                  > Gospel does not do what text normally does, namely be heard or seen or
                  > performed, but it purports to paint an image. It could be a radical
                  act of
                  > adoration and is therefore not ruled out of court like the modulo-19
                  > arithmetic of some scholars in other traditions.
                  >
                  > You are not alone in assuming that words can make an image. George
                  Herbert
                  > wrote a poem in the shape of an altar; and some artists have made
                  images of
                  > words with great complexity long before the use of computers.
                  >
                  > In other words, your thesis does not deny the prime directive: that this
                  > Gospel was written by human beings conscious of what they were
                  doing. So the
                  > images could then be imaged using the software that I have access
                  to. With
                  > millions of variations on skin colour, I could even give it some
                  > verisimilitude.
                  >
                  > For those who like to see the Chi in the chiasm, there are a couple
                  that are
                  > obvious in diagram 5 since I left them in the X form rather than
                  indenting
                  > them. Maybe we go overboard with concentric structures. :)
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  > Bob MacDonald
                  > Victoria BC
                  > http://gx.ca
                  > http://bmd.gx.ca
                  >
                • Tom Butler
                  Marco, At last I have some time to reply to your comments regarding the redaction theory of the Gospel of John. I very much appreciate this opportunity to
                  Message 8 of 21 , Dec 28, 2006
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                    Marco,
                    At last I have some time to reply to your comments
                    regarding the redaction theory of the Gospel of John.
                    I very much appreciate this opportunity to reply to
                    your list of reasons for supporting the redaction
                    theory.
                    By way of dialogue, I'll weave my replies into the
                    text of your list of reasons.

                    --- Fabbri Marco <mv.fabbri@...> wrote:

                    > I share Jack's inclination to think that John 21 is
                    > not written by the same person that wrote John 1-20.
                    >
                    > I find the following reasons:
                    >
                    > 1. Chapter 20 ends in vv. 30-31 with a fully-fledged
                    > conclusion, that refers back to the SHMEIA (signs),
                    > that can be found in John 2-12. Therefore, unless >
                    the contrary is proved, I understand John 20,30-31 >
                    as the conclusion of John 1-20 (whether you include >
                    the Prologue or not).

                    Marco, the logic of your argument suggests to me that
                    Jn. 20: 30-31 should be considered the conclusion of
                    the Gospel of Signs, which as you indicated is found
                    in Jn. 2-12. (I would argue that the Signs component
                    of the Fourth Gospel begins at Jn. 1: 19 (after the
                    Prolog) and ends at Jn. 13: 20 (with the account of
                    the footwashing and before the Farewell Discourse or
                    what Brown calls the Book of Glory begins - though I
                    differ with Brown as to when that book begins: at Jn.
                    13: 21, not at Jn. 13: 1, but that's another issue.)

                    The rationale for such a conclusion being, as you
                    suggested, the reference to signs in those concluding
                    verses.

                    I see no reason to assume, if we are going to put
                    forth a theory that the work of a redactor is evident
                    in the Fourth Gospel, that Jn. 20: 30-31 belongs at
                    the end of chapter 20. Why not at the end of chapter
                    12 (or as I have suggested after 13: 20)?

                    If the redaction theory is related in any way to what
                    may be observed in the Gospel of Mark (where there are
                    at least two different endings) as, for example, a
                    struggle by first century Gospel writers to provide an
                    appropriate ending for the Gospel story, then might it
                    not be appropriate to suggest that 20: 30-31 could be
                    placed at the end of chapter 19, supporting the idea
                    that the resurrection narratives are all the work of
                    one or more redactors?

                    My point is that those two verses (Jn. 20: 30-31) can
                    stand alone. They may be placed where they are at the
                    end of chapter 20 or virtually anywhere else we might
                    want to suggest is the "earliest ending" of the
                    proto-gospel or first draft of the Gospel or whatever
                    we end up calling what we believe to be the oldest
                    part of the text.

                    Is it not more sound from a scholarly point of view to
                    challenge the redaction theory than to challenge the
                    text as we have it? I stand with Culpepper (Anatomy,
                    p. 49), Brown (Introduction p. 86) and Barrett (citing
                    Lindars in The Gospel According to John Second
                    Edition, p. 25) on this. Each of these scholars has
                    theories about how the Gospel may have been redacted,
                    but none of them conclude that it is possible to
                    discern the earliest form of the text with any degree
                    of certainty.

                    The redactor theories serve to explain how or why some
                    of the material may have been incorporated into the
                    Gospel, but they remain theories and cannot be used to
                    isolate some of the material in the Gospel as we have
                    it today from the rest of the material. These
                    theories, therefore, are best used AFTER the text has
                    been studied as a whole, not as a way of organizing
                    the material BEFORE the study begins.
                    >
                    > 2. John 21,24 says the the beloved disciple wrote
                    > TAUTA. It is reasonable to think that TAUTA refers >
                    to what comes before, that is to the Gospel as a
                    > whole down to the first conclusion in John 20,30-31.

                    I'm afraid I don't see your point. What you suggest
                    is that the use of TAUTA makes it reasonable to say
                    that this verse is the conclusion to the entire
                    gospel, which you say ends with chapter 20. How do
                    you conclude that TAUTA in 21: 24 refers to the
                    material that ends at 20: 30-31 but not to the
                    material preceding it in Jn. 21?

                    As I see it Jn. 21: 24 is referring to Jn. 21: 23c,
                    explaining that when Jesus is quoted saying, "If it is
                    my will that he (IE: the disciple whom Jesus loved
                    identified in 21: 20) remain (continue to abide) until
                    I come, what is that to you?"

                    It is as though the author(s) has (have) placed
                    parentheses around the phrase (this is the disciple
                    who is testifying to these things and has written
                    them). The TAUTA, in other words, refers to Jesus'
                    statement in 21: 23c, not necessarily to the entire
                    Gospel.

                    I see 21: 24 as the kind of language found at 19: 35.
                    It is an assertion that the Beloved Disciple is the
                    source of this witness. 21: 24 is not necessarily
                    written BY that witness, but appears to have been
                    written ABOUT the witness, who is the subject of a
                    discussion between Peter and Judas in Jn. 21: 20 and
                    following.

                    This goes to the theory as to the role of the BD in
                    the composition of the Gospel. It seems right to me
                    that the BD may have been the SOURCE of much of the
                    material or could have been the AUTHORITY that
                    influenced an entire community to develop the Gospel
                    as we now have it, but that does not necessarily mean
                    that a single author, the BD or anyone else, wrote the
                    original manuscript or even the proto-gospel which was
                    later redacted by one or more other writers.
                    >
                    > 3. I find six reasons to think that Chapter 21 is
                    > not written by the beloved disciple who wrote John >
                    1-20. I list them so:

                    I'm assuming that you DO think that the material
                    before Chapter 21 WAS written by the beloved disciple.
                    Is that correct?
                    >
                    > 3.1. John 21,24 says that "we know that his witness
                    > is true". The verb is in first plural, so that who->
                    ever is speaking can be easily distinguished from
                    > the beloved disciple, that is referred to in third
                    > person: "he".

                    As I've just pointed out, Jn. 19: 35 can be given that
                    same value. If 21: 24 is evidence that a different
                    hand wrote Chapter 21, is 19: 35 evidence that a
                    different hand wrote Chapter 19 or Chapters 18 AND 19?
                    If so, should we consider that a redactor wrote the
                    passion narrative?
                    >
                    > 3.2. If the person speaking were the same as the
                    > author of John 1-20, he would be a person who >
                    testifies on his own behalf. As John 5,31 says:
                    > "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot
                    > be verified".

                    Jn. 5: 30-38 presents Jesus' own defense against the
                    legal charge of blasphemy (Jn. 5: 18 "calling God his
                    own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.") In
                    5: 30-38 Jesus points his accusers to John the Baptist
                    as a witness, but says that he does not need human
                    testimony, because the works (that the Father had
                    given Him to complete) testify on his behalf and the
                    Father who sent Him "has himself testified on my
                    behalf." In other words, Jesus sites two unassailable
                    witnesses as required by Hebrew law to refute the
                    legal charges against him.

                    If we understand that the beloved disciple has played
                    an important role, even a central role in the creation
                    of the Fourth Gospel, it would seem that the BD does
                    not fall into the trap of testifying on his/her own
                    behalf, because Jesus affirms the BD's testimony, even
                    the BD's abiding presence in 21: 23 and the gospel
                    itself is evidence of that disciple's faithfulness to
                    the task entrusted to him (or her - as I have
                    suggested in an exegesis of Jn. 12: 7 - See Let Her
                    Keep It pp 247-252). Thus the witness of the BD has
                    an authority similar to that of Jesus Himself!
                    >
                    > 3.3. John 21,20-23 says that Jesus didn't say that
                    > the beloved disciple wouldn't die, contrary to the >
                    word spread among the brothers. These verses make >
                    sense if they were written after the death of the >
                    beloved disciple: the author seems worried that >
                    some brothers might think that Jesus was wrong.
                    > Therefore the beloved disciple didn't write these
                    > verses.

                    As indicated above, I don't think one must attribute
                    authorship of chapter 21 to the beloved disciple in
                    order to consider chapter 21 to have been woven into
                    the entire Gospel in a manner similar to the skillful
                    way that other material was woven into the Gospel. My
                    theory is that an entire community of scholars
                    (probably under the leadership, inspiration and
                    authority of the beloved disciple) were involved in
                    the composition and refinement of the gospel. You
                    have found evidence that supports my theory. Thank
                    you.
                    >
                    > 3.4. The fact that we find a conclusion in John
                    > 20,30-31 make it plausible that once the Gospel
                    > ended there, and chapter 21 was added subsequently.
                    > The fact that the conclusion in 20,30-31 is not >
                    modified when chapter 21 is added leads to think >
                    that the author of John 21 didn't think he could >
                    change what was already written. This doesn't
                    > happen in John 1-20, whenever the test is modified.
                    > For instance, in chapter 4,2 a correction is
                    > inserted within the text. The author of John 21 >
                    doesn't take the same liberty.

                    I understand you to be asserting that Jn. 4:2 is a
                    redaction of an earlier text. Is there a manuscript
                    extant of this pericope that does not include what I
                    assume you see as the inserted phrase (vs. 2)? I'm
                    not aware of one (which doesn't mean there isn't one);
                    are you?

                    Absent such a manuscript, why couldn't this be a style
                    used by the original writer: a clarification for the
                    reader offered to prevent any confusion caused by what
                    Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, a rumor
                    (namely: "Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples
                    than John")?

                    The clarification is consistent with the theology of
                    the gospel, namely that as the disciples were abiding
                    in Jesus, as he was abiding in them, they were able to
                    bear fruit. Otherwise they were not able to do
                    anything (Jn. 15: 4-5).

                    The verse above can be understood by readers of the
                    Gospel to mean "The Disciples of Jesus are making and
                    baptizing more disciples than John," but it would not
                    be expected that the Pharisees would have understood
                    that fine theological point.

                    When the disciples bring people to Jesus and those
                    people become disciples, Christ abides in them. When
                    they baptize others, it is the Christ abiding in them
                    that baptizes. That's confusing if not explained.

                    This of course is meaning that the reader of the
                    gospel gains after contemplating the meaning of the
                    entire text; it would not be expected that a Pharisee,
                    hearing the rumor, would have been able to "see" this
                    meaning. The writer is helping the reader distinguish
                    between what the words appear to mean to the
                    uninitiated reader and what they can mean to those who
                    have expounded upon the meaning of each part of the
                    text and upon the gospel as a whole.
                    >
                    > 3.5. Chapter 21 names some disciples that are never
                    > named before: that is, the sons of Zebedee. It is >
                    striking that they are never named in John 1-20.
                    > Whatever the reason, it no longer stands when John
                    > 21 was written.
                    >
                    You may have noted that the Gospel of John does not
                    list twelve names to identify the disciples. The
                    names of James and John are not listed in the Gospel
                    of John specifically. Only Peter, Thomas, Judas and
                    Nathaniel are mentioned more than once. The fact that
                    the Sons of Zebedee are mentioned only in Chapter 21
                    does not suggest that chapter 21 was written by a
                    redactor or that this chapter was necessarily added to
                    the corpus of the text after all of the other chapters
                    were written. Philip is only mentioned in Jn. 1: 45.
                    Should we consider that reference an indication that
                    the pericope in which he is named (Jn. 1: 43-51) is
                    the work of a redactor?

                    > 3.6. Chapter 21 uses 174 different words. 27 of them
                    > are not existent in John 1-20. For instance, in >
                    chapter 6 fish is OPSARION. ICQUS is never
                    > used. Chapter 21 uses ICQUS. It is unlikely that
                    > the author of John 21 is the same as the author of >
                    John 1-20.

                    Chapter 21, you say, uses 174 words. 147 of those
                    words (nearly 98%)are also used in John 1-20. Again,
                    you are assuming that the entire Gospel was written by
                    a single hand and is the witness of a single soul.
                    Consider the possibility that the Gospel is the
                    product of a community of faithful scholars inspired
                    by the witness and authority of one beloved disciple
                    of Jesus. Some differences are to be expected as the
                    work of separate scholars is woven into the text,
                    perhaps by the leader or leaders of the community (the
                    BD and others).
                    >
                    > I think that 3.1-2 are the strongest reasons, that
                    > give me certainty. I recognise that the following >
                    reasons are indiciary. If consiered separately,
                    > they make it more likely that the author is
                    > different. All together, they make a strong case >
                    against identity of author.

                    They make a case against the identity of a single
                    author having written the entire Gospel. I would
                    argue that there are several parts of the Gospel that
                    would illustrate that same point.

                    Barrett, for example, has wondered about the
                    authorship of chapters 11 and 12 in which Lazarus
                    appears, though he appears nowhere else in the Gospel
                    of John or in any other Gospel except in one of Jesus'
                    parables in The Gospel According to Luke. This is the
                    only parable in which Jesus names a character. (Does
                    that suggest that a redactor added it to the Gospel
                    According to Luke?)

                    The Prologue is widely accepted as a different kind of
                    writing than is found in other parts of the Gospel
                    (but then the farewell discourse material is different
                    from the Gospel of signs and the passion narrative
                    seems to have more in common with the Synoptics than
                    any other part of the Fourth Gospel.)

                    In short, the Gospel of John defies categorization.
                    If we are looking for a single author, or hoping to
                    separate the work of one author from that of others, I
                    suspect the effort will be largely fruitless, even
                    though we can see that there are differences. Those
                    differences are woven into a single fabric which
                    cannot be unraveled without harming or even destroying
                    the tapestry that proclaims our faith so powerfully.
                    >
                    > I would be very interested to read a refutation of
                    > any of the given reasons.
                    >
                    Marco, I have found responding to your reasons to be a
                    stimulating exercise. I look forward to your response
                    to my refutations and the continuation of our
                    dialogue. I hope others on the list will contribute
                    to the dialogue as well.

                    Yours in Christ's service,
                    Tom Butler

                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  • Marco V. Fabbri
                    Tom, thank you for your reply. You promised it, and you kept your promise. I will write a short anwer, first, because there was some misunderstanding. I am not
                    Message 9 of 21 , Dec 29, 2006
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                      Tom,

                      thank you for your reply. You promised it, and you kept your promise.

                      I will write a short anwer, first, because there was some misunderstanding.
                      I am not trying to divide the Gospel into a number of preexisting
                      documents. I am just trying to understand the Gospel as we have it. There
                      is no need to persuade me of the shortcomings of documentary theories,
                      because I am already persuaded.

                      When I teach John, I start by studying the Gospel as a whole, in order to
                      find its structure. Only when I know the structure, I am able to recognize
                      some part of the text as not belonging to the structure.

                      The man that opens his watch and separates his components can learn
                      something about how it works. However, if he wants the watch to work, he
                      needs to know how to put the pieces together again. If he thinks that some
                      pieces have no purpose, it doesn't mean that they haven't, but that he
                      doesn't know what their purpose is. And if he is not prepared to learn that,
                      his watch wont't ever work as it was meant to work, or it won't work at all.

                      When I look at John 20,30-31, and notice that it speaks about signs, and
                      look for the signs in the Gospel, and noticed that they are confined to John
                      2-12, I am not saying that the rest does not belong to the original Gospel.
                      I am trying to understand the Gospel as it stands, and I as a legitimate
                      question: why are there no "signs" in John 13-20? What is the function of
                      those chapters? Here I accept the contributions from Dodd, who noticed the
                      importance of the coming of the "hour" of Jesus, and from Brown, who
                      recognizes the importance of "glory" in those chapters, and calls them "the
                      book of glory".

                      That being my stance, I think that whoever affirms that a part of the
                      Gospel, whether it be a verse or a chapter, has been added later, he takes
                      on himself the burden of proof. If he also maintains that the added part has
                      been written by a different author, he takes on himself an additional burden
                      of proof. This is why I took pains to prove a later origin of John 21. We
                      can discuss my reasons, but I think that we agree that I need to prove my
                      point. If I can't, then I have to admit that John 21 is by the same hand as
                      the rest of the Gospel, until somebody else can prove the point.

                      As to the content of the reasons, you say that you refuted them. On my part,
                      I don't agree, and I still think that the point is proved, as do the
                      commentaries that you quote. But there are no discussions that are closed on
                      the authority of anybody. Therefore, I wont' try to defend my option and
                      pass judgement at the same time. Maybe I will engage in discussion later.

                      Before that, I will raise a more general point. I think we agree that
                      whoever affirms that different authors are at work has to prove that. If so,
                      how can you assume that the Fourth Gospel is the work of a plurality of
                      authors? It seems to me that you take on yourself a heavy burden of proof.

                      Since the time I wrote the text you are answering to, I wrote on this same
                      list that I don't believe that written texts in the antiquity were written
                      by many people at the same time. There was no way that a text could be
                      shared by many unless it was first written by one, then copied, then
                      distributed, then read. And again, any intervention by others wouldn't be
                      known unless it was copied by hand, then distributed, then read.

                      Mind me, I don't deny that an author can draw from oral tradition, of from
                      the decisions of a council, or whatever else. I maintain, however, that
                      writing was a job that was done by one person at a time. This is why,
                      whenever a scholar affirms joint authorship, he has to prove it. He can't
                      assume it. So, I believe that I am right when I assume that John has been
                      written by an individual, until the contrary is proven. I never read a proof
                      that a group wrote the Gospel. I read some proofs that a different author
                      wrote chapter 21, as is maintains by most modern scholars.

                      Marco Fabbri

                      On 12/29/06, Tom Butler <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Marco,

                      > At last I have some time to reply to your comments
                      > regarding the redaction theory of the Gospel of John.
                      > I very much appreciate this opportunity to reply to
                      > your list of reasons for supporting the redaction
                      > theory.
                      > By way of dialogue, I'll weave my replies into the
                      > text of your list of reasons.
                      >
                      > --- Fabbri Marco <mv.fabbri@... <mv.fabbri%40gmail.com>> wrote:
                      >
                      > > I share Jack's inclination to think that John 21 is
                      > > not written by the same person that wrote John 1-20.
                      > >
                      > > I find the following reasons:
                      > >
                      > > 1. Chapter 20 ends in vv. 30-31 with a fully-fledged
                      > > conclusion, that refers back to the SHMEIA (signs),
                      > > that can be found in John 2-12. Therefore, unless >
                      > the contrary is proved, I understand John 20,30-31 >
                      > as the conclusion of John 1-20 (whether you include >
                      > the Prologue or not).
                      >
                      > Marco, the logic of your argument suggests to me that
                      > Jn. 20: 30-31 should be considered the conclusion of
                      > the Gospel of Signs, which as you indicated is found
                      > in Jn. 2-12. (I would argue that the Signs component
                      > of the Fourth Gospel begins at Jn. 1: 19 (after the
                      > Prolog) and ends at Jn. 13: 20 (with the account of
                      > the footwashing and before the Farewell Discourse or
                      > what Brown calls the Book of Glory begins - though I
                      > differ with Brown as to when that book begins: at Jn.
                      > 13: 21, not at Jn. 13: 1, but that's another issue.)
                      >
                      > The rationale for such a conclusion being, as you
                      > suggested, the reference to signs in those concluding
                      > verses.
                      >
                      > I see no reason to assume, if we are going to put
                      > forth a theory that the work of a redactor is evident
                      > in the Fourth Gospel, that Jn. 20: 30-31 belongs at
                      > the end of chapter 20. Why not at the end of chapter
                      > 12 (or as I have suggested after 13: 20)?
                      >


                      If the redaction theory is related in any way to what
                      > may be observed in the Gospel of Mark (where there are
                      > at least two different endings) as, for example, a
                      > struggle by first century Gospel writers to provide an
                      > appropriate ending for the Gospel story, then might it
                      > not be appropriate to suggest that 20: 30-31 could be
                      > placed at the end of chapter 19, supporting the idea
                      > that the resurrection narratives are all the work of
                      > one or more redactors?
                      >
                      > My point is that those two verses (Jn. 20: 30-31) can
                      > stand alone. They may be placed where they are at the
                      > end of chapter 20 or virtually anywhere else we might
                      > want to suggest is the "earliest ending" of the
                      > proto-gospel or first draft of the Gospel or whatever
                      > we end up calling what we believe to be the oldest
                      > part of the text.
                      >
                      > Is it not more sound from a scholarly point of view to
                      > challenge the redaction theory than to challenge the
                      > text as we have it? I stand with Culpepper (Anatomy,
                      > p. 49), Brown (Introduction p. 86) and Barrett (citing
                      > Lindars in The Gospel According to John Second
                      > Edition, p. 25) on this. Each of these scholars has
                      > theories about how the Gospel may have been redacted,
                      > but none of them conclude that it is possible to
                      > discern the earliest form of the text with any degree
                      > of certainty.
                      >
                      > The redactor theories serve to explain how or why some
                      > of the material may have been incorporated into the
                      > Gospel, but they remain theories and cannot be used to
                      > isolate some of the material in the Gospel as we have
                      > it today from the rest of the material. These
                      > theories, therefore, are best used AFTER the text has
                      > been studied as a whole, not as a way of organizing
                      > the material BEFORE the study begins.
                      > >
                      > > 2. John 21,24 says the the beloved disciple wrote
                      > > TAUTA. It is reasonable to think that TAUTA refers >
                      > to what comes before, that is to the Gospel as a
                      > > whole down to the first conclusion in John 20,30-31.
                      >
                      > I'm afraid I don't see your point. What you suggest
                      > is that the use of TAUTA makes it reasonable to say
                      > that this verse is the conclusion to the entire
                      > gospel, which you say ends with chapter 20. How do
                      > you conclude that TAUTA in 21: 24 refers to the
                      > material that ends at 20: 30-31 but not to the
                      > material preceding it in Jn. 21?
                      >
                      > As I see it Jn. 21: 24 is referring to Jn. 21: 23c,
                      > explaining that when Jesus is quoted saying, "If it is
                      > my will that he (IE: the disciple whom Jesus loved
                      > identified in 21: 20) remain (continue to abide) until
                      > I come, what is that to you?"
                      >
                      > It is as though the author(s) has (have) placed
                      > parentheses around the phrase (this is the disciple
                      > who is testifying to these things and has written
                      > them). The TAUTA, in other words, refers to Jesus'
                      > statement in 21: 23c, not necessarily to the entire
                      > Gospel.
                      >
                      > I see 21: 24 as the kind of language found at 19: 35.
                      > It is an assertion that the Beloved Disciple is the
                      > source of this witness. 21: 24 is not necessarily
                      > written BY that witness, but appears to have been
                      > written ABOUT the witness, who is the subject of a
                      > discussion between Peter and Judas in Jn. 21: 20 and
                      > following.
                      >
                      > This goes to the theory as to the role of the BD in
                      > the composition of the Gospel. It seems right to me
                      > that the BD may have been the SOURCE of much of the
                      > material or could have been the AUTHORITY that
                      > influenced an entire community to develop the Gospel
                      > as we now have it, but that does not necessarily mean
                      > that a single author, the BD or anyone else, wrote the
                      > original manuscript or even the proto-gospel which was
                      > later redacted by one or more other writers.
                      > >
                      > > 3. I find six reasons to think that Chapter 21 is
                      > > not written by the beloved disciple who wrote John >
                      > 1-20. I list them so:
                      >
                      > I'm assuming that you DO think that the material
                      > before Chapter 21 WAS written by the beloved disciple.
                      > Is that correct?
                      > >
                      > > 3.1. John 21,24 says that "we know that his witness
                      > > is true". The verb is in first plural, so that who->
                      > ever is speaking can be easily distinguished from
                      > > the beloved disciple, that is referred to in third
                      > > person: "he".
                      >
                      > As I've just pointed out, Jn. 19: 35 can be given that
                      > same value. If 21: 24 is evidence that a different
                      > hand wrote Chapter 21, is 19: 35 evidence that a
                      > different hand wrote Chapter 19 or Chapters 18 AND 19?
                      > If so, should we consider that a redactor wrote the
                      > passion narrative?
                      > >
                      > > 3.2. If the person speaking were the same as the
                      > > author of John 1-20, he would be a person who >
                      > testifies on his own behalf. As John 5,31 says:
                      > > "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot
                      > > be verified".
                      >
                      > Jn. 5: 30-38 presents Jesus' own defense against the
                      > legal charge of blasphemy (Jn. 5: 18 "calling God his
                      > own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.") In
                      > 5: 30-38 Jesus points his accusers to John the Baptist
                      > as a witness, but says that he does not need human
                      > testimony, because the works (that the Father had
                      > given Him to complete) testify on his behalf and the
                      > Father who sent Him "has himself testified on my
                      > behalf." In other words, Jesus sites two unassailable
                      > witnesses as required by Hebrew law to refute the
                      > legal charges against him.
                      >
                      > If we understand that the beloved disciple has played
                      > an important role, even a central role in the creation
                      > of the Fourth Gospel, it would seem that the BD does
                      > not fall into the trap of testifying on his/her own
                      > behalf, because Jesus affirms the BD's testimony, even
                      > the BD's abiding presence in 21: 23 and the gospel
                      > itself is evidence of that disciple's faithfulness to
                      > the task entrusted to him (or her - as I have
                      > suggested in an exegesis of Jn. 12: 7 - See Let Her
                      > Keep It pp 247-252). Thus the witness of the BD has
                      > an authority similar to that of Jesus Himself!
                      > >
                      > > 3.3. John 21,20-23 says that Jesus didn't say that
                      > > the beloved disciple wouldn't die, contrary to the >
                      > word spread among the brothers. These verses make >
                      > sense if they were written after the death of the >
                      > beloved disciple: the author seems worried that >
                      > some brothers might think that Jesus was wrong.
                      > > Therefore the beloved disciple didn't write these
                      > > verses.
                      >
                      > As indicated above, I don't think one must attribute
                      > authorship of chapter 21 to the beloved disciple in
                      > order to consider chapter 21 to have been woven into
                      > the entire Gospel in a manner similar to the skillful
                      > way that other material was woven into the Gospel. My
                      > theory is that an entire community of scholars
                      > (probably under the leadership, inspiration and
                      > authority of the beloved disciple) were involved in
                      > the composition and refinement of the gospel. You
                      > have found evidence that supports my theory. Thank
                      > you.
                      > >
                      > > 3.4. The fact that we find a conclusion in John
                      > > 20,30-31 make it plausible that once the Gospel
                      > > ended there, and chapter 21 was added subsequently.
                      > > The fact that the conclusion in 20,30-31 is not >
                      > modified when chapter 21 is added leads to think >
                      > that the author of John 21 didn't think he could >
                      > change what was already written. This doesn't
                      > > happen in John 1-20, whenever the test is modified.
                      > > For instance, in chapter 4,2 a correction is
                      > > inserted within the text. The author of John 21 >
                      > doesn't take the same liberty.
                      >
                      > I understand you to be asserting that Jn. 4:2 is a
                      > redaction of an earlier text. Is there a manuscript
                      > extant of this pericope that does not include what I
                      > assume you see as the inserted phrase (vs. 2)? I'm
                      > not aware of one (which doesn't mean there isn't one);
                      > are you?
                      >
                      > Absent such a manuscript, why couldn't this be a style
                      > used by the original writer: a clarification for the
                      > reader offered to prevent any confusion caused by what
                      > Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, a rumor
                      > (namely: "Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples
                      > than John")?
                      >
                      > The clarification is consistent with the theology of
                      > the gospel, namely that as the disciples were abiding
                      > in Jesus, as he was abiding in them, they were able to
                      > bear fruit. Otherwise they were not able to do
                      > anything (Jn. 15: 4-5).
                      >
                      > The verse above can be understood by readers of the
                      > Gospel to mean "The Disciples of Jesus are making and
                      > baptizing more disciples than John," but it would not
                      > be expected that the Pharisees would have understood
                      > that fine theological point.
                      >
                      > When the disciples bring people to Jesus and those
                      > people become disciples, Christ abides in them. When
                      > they baptize others, it is the Christ abiding in them
                      > that baptizes. That's confusing if not explained.
                      >
                      > This of course is meaning that the reader of the
                      > gospel gains after contemplating the meaning of the
                      > entire text; it would not be expected that a Pharisee,
                      > hearing the rumor, would have been able to "see" this
                      > meaning. The writer is helping the reader distinguish
                      > between what the words appear to mean to the
                      > uninitiated reader and what they can mean to those who
                      > have expounded upon the meaning of each part of the
                      > text and upon the gospel as a whole.
                      > >
                      > > 3.5. Chapter 21 names some disciples that are never
                      > > named before: that is, the sons of Zebedee. It is >
                      > striking that they are never named in John 1-20.
                      > > Whatever the reason, it no longer stands when John
                      > > 21 was written.
                      > >
                      > You may have noted that the Gospel of John does not
                      > list twelve names to identify the disciples. The
                      > names of James and John are not listed in the Gospel
                      > of John specifically. Only Peter, Thomas, Judas and
                      > Nathaniel are mentioned more than once. The fact that
                      > the Sons of Zebedee are mentioned only in Chapter 21
                      > does not suggest that chapter 21 was written by a
                      > redactor or that this chapter was necessarily added to
                      > the corpus of the text after all of the other chapters
                      > were written. Philip is only mentioned in Jn. 1: 45.
                      > Should we consider that reference an indication that
                      > the pericope in which he is named (Jn. 1: 43-51) is
                      > the work of a redactor?
                      >
                      > > 3.6. Chapter 21 uses 174 different words. 27 of them
                      > > are not existent in John 1-20. For instance, in >
                      > chapter 6 fish is OPSARION. ICQUS is never
                      > > used. Chapter 21 uses ICQUS. It is unlikely that
                      > > the author of John 21 is the same as the author of >
                      > John 1-20.
                      >
                      > Chapter 21, you say, uses 174 words. 147 of those
                      > words (nearly 98%)are also used in John 1-20. Again,
                      > you are assuming that the entire Gospel was written by
                      > a single hand and is the witness of a single soul.
                      > Consider the possibility that the Gospel is the
                      > product of a community of faithful scholars inspired
                      > by the witness and authority of one beloved disciple
                      > of Jesus. Some differences are to be expected as the
                      > work of separate scholars is woven into the text,
                      > perhaps by the leader or leaders of the community (the
                      > BD and others).
                      > >
                      > > I think that 3.1-2 are the strongest reasons, that
                      > > give me certainty. I recognise that the following >
                      > reasons are indiciary. If consiered separately,
                      > > they make it more likely that the author is
                      > > different. All together, they make a strong case >
                      > against identity of author.
                      >
                      > They make a case against the identity of a single
                      > author having written the entire Gospel. I would
                      > argue that there are several parts of the Gospel that
                      > would illustrate that same point.
                      >
                      > Barrett, for example, has wondered about the
                      > authorship of chapters 11 and 12 in which Lazarus
                      > appears, though he appears nowhere else in the Gospel
                      > of John or in any other Gospel except in one of Jesus'
                      > parables in The Gospel According to Luke. This is the
                      > only parable in which Jesus names a character. (Does
                      > that suggest that a redactor added it to the Gospel
                      > According to Luke?)
                      >
                      > The Prologue is widely accepted as a different kind of
                      > writing than is found in other parts of the Gospel
                      > (but then the farewell discourse material is different
                      > from the Gospel of signs and the passion narrative
                      > seems to have more in common with the Synoptics than
                      > any other part of the Fourth Gospel.)
                      >
                      > In short, the Gospel of John defies categorization.
                      > If we are looking for a single author, or hoping to
                      > separate the work of one author from that of others, I
                      > suspect the effort will be largely fruitless, even
                      > though we can see that there are differences. Those
                      > differences are woven into a single fabric which
                      > cannot be unraveled without harming or even destroying
                      > the tapestry that proclaims our faith so powerfully.
                      > >
                      > > I would be very interested to read a refutation of
                      > > any of the given reasons.
                      > >
                      > Marco, I have found responding to your reasons to be a
                      > stimulating exercise. I look forward to your response
                      > to my refutations and the continuation of our
                      > dialogue. I hope others on the list will contribute
                      > to the dialogue as well.
                      >
                      > Yours in Christ's service,
                      > Tom Butler
                      >
                      > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                      > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                      > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >
                      >



                      --
                      _______________________________________
                      Prof. Marco V. Fabbri
                      Dipartimento di Sacra Scrittura
                      Pontificia Università della Santa Croce
                      Piazza S. Apollinare 49
                      I-00186 Roma
                      Italy

                      e-mail: mv.fabbri@...
                      fax: ++39-06-68164400


                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Marco V. Fabbri
                      Tom, I had to interrupt quite abruptly my answer before I had time to discuss properly your remarks. I thank you for you work, and for the opportunity that we
                      Message 10 of 21 , Dec 29, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Tom,

                        I had to interrupt quite abruptly my answer before I had time to discuss
                        properly your remarks. I thank you for you work, and for the opportunity
                        that we are now sharing to check the soundness of our ideas.

                        My previous post coped with general issues, this one will be dedicated to
                        particular points. My answer will be interspersed.

                        On 12/29/06, Tom Butler <<mailto:pastor_t@...>pastor_t@...>
                        wrote:

                        Marco,
                        At last I have some time to reply to your comments
                        regarding the redaction theory of the Gospel of John.
                        I very much appreciate this opportunity to reply to
                        your list of reasons for supporting the redaction
                        theory.
                        By way of dialogue, I'll weave my replies into the
                        text of your list of reasons.

                        --- Fabbri Marco <<mailto:mv.fabbri%40gmail.com>mv.fabbri@...> wrote:

                        > I share Jack's inclination to think that John 21 is
                        > not written by the same person that wrote John 1-20.
                        >
                        > I find the following reasons:
                        >
                        > 1. Chapter 20 ends in vv. 30-31 with a fully-fledged
                        > conclusion, that refers back to the SHMEIA (signs),
                        > that can be found in John 2-12. Therefore, unless >
                        the contrary is proved, I understand John 20,30-31 >
                        as the conclusion of John 1-20 (whether you include >
                        the Prologue or not).

                        Marco, the logic of your argument suggests to me that
                        Jn. 20: 30-31 should be considered the conclusion of
                        the Gospel of Signs, which as you indicated is found
                        in Jn. 2-12.

                        Not so. I am not trying to separate from the rest of Gospel a so-called
                        "source of signs" or Semeiaquelle. I am taking the Gospel as it stands, and
                        assuming that it is consistent, until the contrary is proven.

                        I am just observing that John 20,30-31 is a conclusion, and that it speaks
                        about the "signs" that are written in the book (the book that we call the
                        Gsopel). I search for the signs, and see that they are concentrated in
                        chapters 2-12. This means that if the Gospel has a structure, at this point
                        I still need to understand the function of chapter 1, and the function of
                        chapters 13-20. It is all too easy to wipe away those parts of the Gospel
                        whose function is not understood at first glance. If I did that, I would be
                        a reader that is not prepared to learn anything that he doesn't know
                        already. A bad reader indeed.

                        (I would argue that the Signs component
                        of the Fourth Gospel begins at Jn. 1: 19 (after the
                        Prolog)

                        The Gospel as it stands declares at 2,11 that the sign of Cana is the
                        beginning of the signs. The sign itself is narrated in John 2,1-11. I don't
                        dare to say that John 1 tells any sign: I am unwilling to pretend that I
                        know better than the Evangelist.

                        This doesn't mean that a so-called original Gospel started at 2,1. I agree
                        that there never was a Gospel that didn't include chapter 1. It would be
                        absurd indeed: what could the reader make of the "third day" mentioned in
                        2,1?

                        Rather, the art of telling a tale requires an introduction. The reader needs
                        to be drawn into the story. I believe that this is the function of John 1.

                        and ends at Jn. 13: 20 (with the account of
                        the footwashing and before the Farewell Discourse or
                        what Brown calls the Book of Glory begins - though I
                        differ with Brown as to when that book begins: at Jn.
                        13: 21, not at Jn. 13: 1, but that's another issue.)

                        I agree that this is another issue. Most scholars think that the second part
                        of the Gospel begins with chapter 13. Some think that chapters 10-12 are
                        transitional.

                        If we prefer to draw on the point that have already been made, I think that
                        we can't ignore that the last mention of the signs is at 12:37, where it
                        says: TOSAUTA DE AUTOU SHMEIA PEPOIHKOTOS EMPOSQEN AUTWN OUK EPISTEUON EIS
                        AUTON.

                        Here it is: the signs should lead to faith, but they dind't win the faith of
                        the many. There are many who believe, but then they relinquish Jesus. Then
                        the people disappear from the account: the twelve remain. It seems to me
                        that it is impossible to divide the meal told in John 13 between the two
                        parts of the Gospel. The character are the same along chapters 13-17, and
                        they are the sole witness of the revelation of the AGAPH.

                        The rationale for such a conclusion being, as you
                        suggested, the reference to signs in those concluding
                        verses.

                        I see no reason to assume, if we are going to put
                        forth a theory that the work of a redactor is evident
                        in the Fourth Gospel, that Jn. 20: 30-31 belongs at
                        the end of chapter 20. Why not at the end of chapter
                        12 (or as I have suggested after 13: 20)?

                        Simply because it is at the end of chapter 20. But I think this objection
                        dependes on the misunderstanding that I tried to to solve in my previous
                        posting.


                        If the redaction theory is related in any way to what
                        may be observed in the Gospel of Mark (where there are
                        at least two different endings) as, for example, a
                        struggle by first century Gospel writers to provide an
                        appropriate ending for the Gospel story, then might it
                        not be appropriate to suggest that 20: 30-31 could be
                        placed at the end of chapter 19, supporting the idea
                        that the resurrection narratives are all the work of
                        one or more redactors?

                        The ending of Mark is a different problem. From start there is a problem of
                        text criticism: the best manuscripts end at Mark 16,8. So a problem arises:
                        16,8 is an abrupt ending. Could Gospel end saying that the women told
                        nothing, EFOBOUNTO GAR? We miss a conclusion. Was this intentional?

                        And yet we know for certain that the Gospel once existed without Mark
                        16,9-20. Later Mark 16,9-20 was written, and also another alternate ending.

                        Then there is also a literary problem, which is a difference of style in
                        Mark 16,9-20, and, more importantly, the fact that Mark 16,9-20 knows about
                        waht is told in John 20, Matthew 28 and Luke 24.

                        But this a list devoted to Johannine Literature, and I will refrain from
                        pressing an interpretation of Mark. I rather want to point to the fact that
                        when studying Mark and John we face opposite problems: the oldest
                        manuscripts of John witness to a Gospel with two endings; the oldest
                        manuscripts of Mark witness to a Gospel that lacks an ending.

                        My point is that those two verses (Jn. 20: 30-31) can
                        stand alone.

                        I would disagree to this particular point. As a rule, a conclusion can never
                        stand alone: it needs a text before it.

                        This particular conclusion states that it is a conclusion to a book, and
                        that the book tells signs made by Jesus. Therefore it is the conclusion to a
                        narration.

                        They may be placed where they are at the
                        end of chapter 20 or virtually anywhere else we might
                        want to suggest is the "earliest ending" of the
                        proto-gospel or first draft of the Gospel or whatever
                        we end up calling what we believe to be the oldest
                        part of the text.

                        To this I hearthily agree. I think it is now clear that I am not interested
                        in proto-gospels.

                        Is it not more sound from a scholarly point of view to
                        challenge the redaction theory than to challenge the
                        text as we have it? I stand with Culpepper (Anatomy,
                        p. 49), Brown (Introduction p. 86) and Barrett (citing
                        Lindars in The Gospel According to John Second
                        Edition, p. 25) on this. Each of these scholars has
                        theories about how the Gospel may have been redacted,
                        but none of them conclude that it is possible to
                        discern the earliest form of the text with any degree
                        of certainty.

                        I agree with your last sentence and with the scholars that you quote, Brown
                        among them.

                        I would like to note that I say a different thing when I say that chapter 21
                        is a later addition. I can't think that any scholar would say that John 1-20
                        is "the earliest form of the gospel". According to the scholars that you
                        quote, we don't know with certainty about the earliest form of the Gospel.

                        We know with certainty about the latest form, that is all of the Gospel. And
                        I think that we can go back one step from that, to a Gospel that ended at
                        John 20,31.

                        Please note that Brown agrees with that, even if doubts that the earliest
                        Gospel can be reconstructed.


                        The redactor theories serve to explain how or why some
                        of the material may have been incorporated into the
                        Gospel, but they remain theories and cannot be used to
                        isolate some of the material in the Gospel as we have
                        it today from the rest of the material. These
                        theories, therefore, are best used AFTER the text has
                        been studied as a whole, not as a way of organizing
                        the material BEFORE the study begins.

                        I agree. My students first here about the process of redaction of the Gospel
                        after some 12 classes about the structure of the Gospel as it stands.

                        >
                        > 2. John 21,24 says the the beloved disciple wrote
                        > TAUTA. It is reasonable to think that TAUTA refers >
                        to what comes before, that is to the Gospel as a
                        > whole down to the first conclusion in John 20,30-31.

                        I'm afraid I don't see your point. What you suggest
                        is that the use of TAUTA makes it reasonable to say
                        that this verse is the conclusion to the entire
                        gospel, which you say ends with chapter 20.

                        I don't say that the Gospel that we now have ends at chapter 20.

                        I rather say that there is a conclusion at the end of chapter 20, and that
                        we have to explain why the Gospel has two conclusions. Even more, John 21,25
                        repeats that Jesus did more than what is told. From this I draw that John
                        21,24 know John 20,30-31. This is true whether we hold that the same author
                        wrote all of John or a different author wrote John 21.

                        How do
                        you conclude that TAUTA in 21: 24 refers to the
                        material that ends at 20: 30-31 but not to the
                        material preceding it in Jn. 21?

                        There are reasons for that I presented as my points 3.1 to 3.6.

                        As I see it Jn. 21: 24 is referring to Jn. 21: 23c,
                        explaining that when Jesus is quoted saying, "If it is
                        my will that he (IE: the disciple whom Jesus loved
                        identified in 21: 20) remain (continue to abide) until
                        I come, what is that to you?"

                        It is as though the author(s) has (have) placed
                        parentheses around the phrase (this is the disciple
                        who is testifying to these things and has written
                        them).

                        I can't see the parenthesis. Would could that mean, if not that you suggest
                        that 21,25 is by the same hand that writes 21,23? You may suggest it, but I
                        see no reason to separate 21,24 from 21,25. According to the methodological
                        reasons staed in my previous post, whoever affirms that part of a text
                        belongs to a different author has to prove that. It is not enough to speak
                        figuratively of parenthesis. I need a prove that 21,24 is from a different
                        author than 21,25.

                        Until a proof is given, I won't separate 21, from 21,25. And this lead to
                        another strong reason to recognize that TAUTA refers to John 1-20 and not to
                        21,23c. It is impossible to conceive that John ever ended in 21,23. We
                        started with a Gospel with two conclusions, we can't go all the way to a
                        Gospel that ends without a conclusion. This is why I think that we need to
                        think of John 21 a unit that stands together. It comes after the first
                        conclusion, and it ends with the second conclusion.

                        The TAUTA, in other words, refers to Jesus'
                        statement in 21: 23c, not necessarily to the entire
                        Gospel.

                        My position is not that it refers to the entire Gospel, but rather to John
                        1-20. I already noted that John 20,30-31 refers to Joh 1-20 as "this book"
                        that contains "signs". The signs are called TAUTA in 20,31. If, as noted
                        above, John 21,25 knows John 20,30-31, it is consistent to interpret the
                        reference to TAUTA as to the same things that are named TAUTA in 20,31.

                        I see 21: 24 as the kind of language found at 19: 35.

                        The two passages have similaritites, I concede that. If you can prove that
                        they are from the same hand, then I will have to accept that they are an
                        insertion from the author of John 21. But please note that 19,35 make no use
                        of the first person plural, as John 21 does. I find in the use of the first
                        person plural a reason to distinguish the author of John 21 from the author
                        of John 1-20. That reason does not stand for 19,35.

                        It is an assertion that the Beloved Disciple is the
                        source of this witness. 21: 24 is not necessarily
                        written BY that witness, but appears to have been
                        written ABOUT the witness, who is the subject of a
                        discussion between Peter and Judas in Jn. 21: 20 and
                        following.

                        You say that is not necessary that 21,24 is written BY that witness. I say
                        it is impossible. If my statement is true, then it follows logically that
                        also your statement is. It is impossible to hold my statement and deny your
                        statement. I accept it.

                        On the contrary, it is possible to maintain your statement and reject mine.
                        This is why I took pains to prove that it is impossible that 21,24 could be
                        written by that witness. See my 3.1-3.2.

                        This goes to the theory as to the role of the BD in
                        the composition of the Gospel. It seems right to me
                        that the BD may have been the SOURCE of much of the
                        material or could have been the AUTHORITY that
                        influenced an entire community to develop the Gospel
                        as we now have it, but that does not necessarily mean
                        that a single author, the BD or anyone else, wrote the
                        original manuscript or even the proto-gospel which was
                        later redacted by one or more other writers.

                        John 21,24 says indeed that the BD is the witness, and therefore the source
                        of the account, in our language. But it goes on and says that he is the one
                        who wrote these things: hO GRAPSAS TAUTA. I can't see how you could take at
                        face value the the BD is the witness, and not that he is the writer. I
                        understand that you have in mind a theory according to which the Gospel is
                        written by many people. But I suggest that you should recognize that John 21
                        doesn't share that theory. He could have said that HE witnessed and WE
                        wrote. But he didn't.

                        Of course, the "we" that speaks in chapter 21 also writes something,
                        otherwise we couldn't read it. It writes chapter 21. I think my view is
                        proved consistent. Whatever view we have if the BD and of the WE that write
                        chapter 21, they are different voices. For "US" the BD is HE. The BD is
                        dead, and WE are alive when writing. Yet the BD wrote, WE say. He wrote
                        while he was still alive, of course.

                        I'm assuming that you DO think that the material
                        before Chapter 21 WAS written by the beloved disciple.
                        Is that correct?
                        >
                        > 3.1. John 21,24 says that "we know that his witness
                        > is true". The verb is in first plural, so that who->
                        ever is speaking can be easily distinguished from
                        > the beloved disciple, that is referred to in third
                        > person: "he".

                        In my reasoning, there would still be room for maintaining that the BD did
                        not write materially 1-20, as long as hO GRAPSAS is accounted for. One
                        should prove that the subject of the verb GRAFW could be the person who
                        dictated a text, as Paul used to do, or the person that had it written, even
                        if he didn't write that himself.

                        The advocates of this position quote Pilate in John 19,22: hO GEGRAFA
                        GEGRAFA. Now, Pilate would hardly write the titulus crucis himself. He would
                        order somebody to write it.

                        Is it likely that this happened with John 1-20? Whatever stance we take,
                        what I staed above does not depend on it.

                        This said, I would note that in John 19,22 or in the Pauline letters, the
                        person who orders the text to be written is contemporary to the person that
                        put the order into effect. Therefore I wouldn't subscribe to a theory that
                        the redactor of the Gospel is later than the BD.

                        And I wouldn't subscribe to any theory of a collective writer. Whatever
                        secretary helped Paul, or whatever clerk or soldier wrote the inscription on
                        the cross, he was not a group.

                        As I've just pointed out, Jn. 19: 35 can be given that
                        same value. If 21: 24 is evidence that a different
                        hand wrote Chapter 21, is 19: 35 evidence that a
                        different hand wrote Chapter 19 or Chapters 18 AND 19?
                        If so, should we consider that a redactor wrote the
                        passion narrative?

                        Not so.

                        First: John 19,35 makes no use of the WE that is the mark of chapter 21, and
                        that distinguishes the author of chapter 21 from the BD, who is referred to
                        as HE.

                        Second, I tried to prove that 21,24 is NOT a parenthesis.

                        It is still possible to maintain, as some scholars do, that John 19,35 is an
                        insertion in the passion narrative. In my opinion, the solution to this
                        depends on how tightly 19,35 is connected to what comes before and after it.
                        I am still uncertain. I miss the WE form to be sure. Its absence makes it
                        possible to maintain that 19,35 belongs to the texture of chapter 19.

                        >
                        > 3.2. If the person speaking were the same as the
                        > author of John 1-20, he would be a person who >
                        testifies on his own behalf. As John 5,31 says:
                        > "If I testify on my own behalf, my testimony cannot
                        > be verified".


                        Jn. 5: 30-38 presents Jesus' own defense against the
                        legal charge of blasphemy (Jn. 5: 18 "calling God his
                        own Father, thereby making himself equal to God.") In
                        5: 30-38 Jesus points his accusers to John the Baptist
                        as a witness, but says that he does not need human
                        testimony, because the works (that the Father had
                        given Him to complete) testify on his behalf and the
                        Father who sent Him "has himself testified on my
                        behalf." In other words, Jesus sites two unassailable
                        witnesses as required by Hebrew law to refute the
                        legal charges against him.

                        This doesn't change the need for two witnesses. Rather, the whole argument
                        implies that two witnesses are needed, as one cannot bear witness to
                        himself.

                        Those who understand Jesus can see from his answer that the Father and Jesus
                        are two persons.

                        Those who do not understand Jesus have the witness of John the Baptist,
                        which is stressed in John 1,19-34, and then again later.

                        Therefore, until now, my point stands.

                        If we understand that the beloved disciple has played
                        an important role, even a central role in the creation
                        of the Fourth Gospel, it would seem that the BD does
                        not fall into the trap of testifying on his/her own
                        behalf,

                        He doesn't indeed. It's the author of John 21 that says that WE know that
                        his witness his true, so that even after the BD is dead the readers of
                        Gospel can hear two witnesses.

                        because Jesus affirms the BD's testimony, even
                        the BD's abiding presence in 21: 23

                        Here I don't understand: do you mean that the discussion about the opinion
                        spread among the disciples that the BD wouldn't die is written before or
                        after he died?

                        and the gospel
                        itself is evidence of that disciple's faithfulness to
                        the task entrusted to him (or her - as I have
                        suggested in an exegesis of Jn. 12: 7 - See Let Her
                        Keep It pp 247-252). Thus the witness of the BD has
                        an authority similar to that of Jesus Himself!

                        Raymond Brown did not think that we could know who the BD was. But the year
                        he died I listened to a conference he gave in Rome, and he said that he
                        didn't believe that, according to the Gospel, the BD could be a woman,
                        because of John 19,26. Anyway, I am ready to recognize that this has no
                        bearing on the discussion on the redaction of the Gospel. It is one thing to
                        see in the BD the writer of the Gospel, hO GRAPSAS TAUTA, and another to
                        pretend to know who the BD was.

                        >
                        > 3.3. John 21,20-23 says that Jesus didn't say that
                        > the beloved disciple wouldn't die, contrary to the >
                        word spread among the brothers. These verses make >
                        sense if they were written after the death of the >
                        beloved disciple: the author seems worried that >
                        some brothers might think that Jesus was wrong.
                        > Therefore the beloved disciple didn't write these
                        > verses.

                        As indicated above, I don't think one must attribute
                        authorship of chapter 21 to the beloved disciple in
                        order to consider chapter 21 to have been woven into
                        the entire Gospel in a manner similar to the skillful
                        way that other material was woven into the Gospel.

                        Does this mean that you agree that the BD didn't write John 21?

                        As to the similar way, it all depends on what you mean by similar. If you
                        mean that the author of John 21 draws on John 1-20 and take some expressions
                        from it, I agree.

                        If you mean that the relationship is the same, then it is already apparent
                        that I disagree.

                        My
                        theory is that an entire community of scholars
                        (probably under the leadership, inspiration and
                        authority of the beloved disciple) were involved in
                        the composition and refinement of the gospel. You
                        have found evidence that supports my theory. Thank
                        you.

                        I can't see that evidence. Even more, I can't see that books in the
                        antiquity were written by a community. A text has an author, until the
                        contrary is proven. I took pains to prove that John 21 is written by
                        somebody else, and you find iut hard to believe. How can you believe that
                        the authors are not only two, but rather an entire community?

                        > 3.4. The fact that we find a conclusion in John
                        > 20,30-31 make it plausible that once the Gospel
                        > ended there, and chapter 21 was added subsequently.
                        > The fact that the conclusion in 20,30-31 is not >
                        modified when chapter 21 is added leads to think >
                        that the author of John 21 didn't think he could >
                        change what was already written. This doesn't
                        > happen in John 1-20, whenever the test is modified.
                        > For instance, in chapter 4,2 a correction is
                        > inserted within the text. The author of John 21 >
                        doesn't take the same liberty.

                        I understand you to be asserting that Jn. 4:2 is a
                        redaction of an earlier text. Is there a manuscript
                        extant of this pericope that does not include what I
                        assume you see as the inserted phrase (vs. 2)? I'm
                        not aware of one (which doesn't mean there isn't one);
                        are you?

                        Absent such a manuscript, why couldn't this be a style
                        used by the original writer: a clarification for the
                        reader offered to prevent any confusion caused by what
                        Jesus learned that the Pharisees had heard, a rumor
                        (namely: "Jesus is making and baptizing more disciples
                        than John")?

                        I never wrote that I maintain that John 4,2 is by a different author. I
                        won't believe it is by another hand until that is proven.

                        The text is a correction, granted. I take it as a prove that John 1-20
                        underwent a process of redaction. Nothing more than that.

                        We are familiar with such correction in dissertations: the authors feels the
                        need to clarify what he had previously written, and add a corrections
                        instead of rewriting entirely his paragraph. He should do, because he has a
                        computer. Even so, I don't accuse the author of having somebody else write
                        his dissertation.

                        As for the ancient authors, we can hardly blame for adding some expalantory
                        notes to their own text. They couldn't rewrite entirely their text without
                        wasting much time and much money.

                        The clarification is consistent with the theology of
                        the gospel, namely that as the disciples were abiding
                        in Jesus, as he was abiding in them, they were able to
                        bear fruit. Otherwise they were not able to do
                        anything (Jn. 15: 4-5).

                        The verse above can be understood by readers of the
                        Gospel to mean "The Disciples of Jesus are making and
                        baptizing more disciples than John," but it would not
                        be expected that the Pharisees would have understood
                        that fine theological point.

                        When the disciples bring people to Jesus and those
                        people become disciples, Christ abides in them. When
                        they baptize others, it is the Christ abiding in them
                        that baptizes. That's confusing if not explained.

                        I agree with that.

                        This of course is meaning that the reader of the
                        gospel gains after contemplating the meaning of the
                        entire text; it would not be expected that a Pharisee,
                        hearing the rumor, would have been able to "see" this
                        meaning. The writer is helping the reader distinguish
                        between what the words appear to mean to the
                        uninitiated reader and what they can mean to those who
                        have expounded upon the meaning of each part of the
                        text and upon the gospel as a whole.

                        My first language is Italian, and I am uncertain as to your meaning. Do you
                        mean "expounded" or "expanded"?

                        For the rest, it poses no problem to me, and can be maintained whether the
                        author is one or many.

                        >
                        > 3.5. Chapter 21 names some disciples that are never
                        > named before: that is, the sons of Zebedee. It is >
                        striking that they are never named in John 1-20.
                        > Whatever the reason, it no longer stands when John
                        > 21 was written.
                        >
                        You may have noted that the Gospel of John does not
                        list twelve names to identify the disciples. The
                        names of James and John are not listed in the Gospel
                        of John specifically. Only Peter, Thomas, Judas and
                        Nathaniel are mentioned more than once. The fact that
                        the Sons of Zebedee are mentioned only in Chapter 21
                        does not suggest that chapter 21 was written by a
                        redactor or that this chapter was necessarily added to
                        the corpus of the text after all of the other chapters
                        were written. Philip is only mentioned in Jn. 1: 45.
                        Should we consider that reference an indication that
                        the pericope in which he is named (Jn. 1: 43-51) is
                        the work of a redactor?

                        Not indeed. I can't follow you here. Philip is mentioned in John 1:43; 1:44;
                        1:45; 1:46; 1:48; 6:5; 6:7; 12:21; 12:22; 14:8; 14:9.

                        But let us suppose a character is named only in chapter 1, as Nathanael is.
                        We have agreed to take the Gospel as it stands. If so, the reader starts in
                        chapter 1, and is acquainted with Nathanael since the beginning. The
                        exchange between Jesus and Nathanael leads directly into the signs, and
                        announces them. Jesus says to Nathanael: MEIZW TOUTWN OPSHi. The following
                        scene has Nathanael see the first sign together with the other disciples. So
                        Nathanael is woven into the narrative and can't be taken away from it.

                        On the other hand, when the reader reaches the conclusion in 20,30-31, he
                        still hasn't heard of the sons of Zebedee. Either they are unimportant to
                        the writer and he forgets about them, or he avoids them on purpose, or both.
                        Depending on your answer, you will have to recognize that either they are
                        important to the writer of John 21, or he mentions them on purpose, or both.


                        > 3.6. Chapter 21 uses 174 different words. 27 of them
                        > are not existent in John 1-20. For instance, in >
                        chapter 6 fish is OPSARION. ICQUS is never
                        > used. Chapter 21 uses ICQUS. It is unlikely that
                        > the author of John 21 is the same as the author of >
                        John 1-20.

                        Chapter 21, you say, uses 174 words. 147 of those
                        words (nearly 98%)are also used in John 1-20.

                        My mathematics is different. To me, 147 is 75-76% of 174. This means that
                        24-25% of the words of John 21 are not used in John 1-20.

                        An example of what these words are can be significant: fish is called in
                        John 6 OPSARION. ICQUS is never used in John 1-20. John 21 quotes the same
                        word OPSARION, but also adds the word ICQUS, that in the meanwhile has
                        become significant for Christians.

                        Again,
                        you are assuming that the entire Gospel was written by
                        a single hand and is the witness of a single soul.

                        I assume this, because it is correct to assume this until the contrary is
                        proven.

                        I understand that your hypothesis is dear to you, and I don't want to
                        inflict pain, but isn't it possible that you grew accustomed to look at the
                        Gospel from that standpoint, and take it for granted?

                        Consider the possibility that the Gospel is the
                        product of a community of faithful scholars inspired
                        by the witness and authority of one beloved disciple
                        of Jesus. Some differences are to be expected as the
                        work of separate scholars is woven into the text,
                        perhaps by the leader or leaders of the community (the
                        BD and others).

                        In my opinion, you need to make a choice.

                        If there is one redactor, or another natural number of redactors (whose
                        existence you will need to prove), then as long as he writes (or n redactors
                        write), what he writes will reflect his idiolect and his style.

                        If there is no finite number of redactor, than not only some differences are
                        to be expected, but no idiolect or style can be recognized at all. If you
                        take this position, then whatever inconsistency arises can be solved saying
                        that this depends on the multiple authors. And you can't avoid a paradox:
                        whether you like it or not, your interpretation will fall into subjectivism,
                        just as those scholars that split the Gospel into hypotethical sources.

                        One example: did Jesus baptize or not? Some of your author thought he did.
                        Some thought he didn't. Both group wove their opinion into the Gospel. Who
                        are we to say who's right? Because if somebody corrected somebody else, then
                        we can accept the first opinion as well as the second.

                        >
                        > I think that 3.1-2 are the strongest reasons, that
                        > give me certainty. I recognise that the following >
                        reasons are indiciary. If consiered separately,
                        > they make it more likely that the author is
                        > different. All together, they make a strong case >
                        against identity of author.

                        They make a case against the identity of a single
                        author having written the entire Gospel. I would
                        argue that there are several parts of the Gospel that
                        would illustrate that same point.

                        Barrett, for example, has wondered about the
                        authorship of chapters 11 and 12 in which Lazarus
                        appears, though he appears nowhere else in the Gospel
                        of John or in any other Gospel except in one of Jesus'
                        parables in The Gospel According to Luke. This is the
                        only parable in which Jesus names a character. (Does
                        that suggest that a redactor added it to the Gospel
                        According to Luke?)

                        The Prologue is widely accepted as a different kind of
                        writing than is found in other parts of the Gospel
                        (but then the farewell discourse material is different
                        from the Gospel of signs and the passion narrative
                        seems to have more in common with the Synoptics than
                        any other part of the Fourth Gospel.)

                        In short, the Gospel of John defies categorization.
                        If we are looking for a single author, or hoping to
                        separate the work of one author from that of others, I
                        suspect the effort will be largely fruitless, even
                        though we can see that there are differences. Those
                        differences are woven into a single fabric which
                        cannot be unraveled without harming or even destroying
                        the tapestry that proclaims our faith so powerfully.
                        >
                        > I would be very interested to read a refutation of
                        > any of the given reasons.
                        >
                        Marco, I have found responding to your reasons to be a
                        stimulating exercise. I look forward to your response
                        to my refutations and the continuation of our
                        dialogue. I hope others on the list will contribute
                        to the dialogue as well.

                        Yours in Christ's service,
                        Tom Butler

                        I thank you, too, for this opportunity. It very interesting to challenge our
                        own assumption, and try to reason them.

                        Yours in Christ

                        Marco Fabbri


                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Tom Butler
                        Marco, Thank you for your eloquent and rapid reply to my response to your list of reasons for asserting that Jn. 21 was written by a redactor. Like you, I
                        Message 11 of 21 , Dec 29, 2006
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                          Marco,

                          Thank you for your eloquent and rapid reply to my
                          response to your list of reasons for asserting that
                          Jn. 21 was written by a redactor. Like you, I will
                          respond with a brief note, perhaps to be followed by a
                          more careful and systematic defense of my assertions
                          when time allows.

                          Thank you for clarifying your intention and
                          understanding of the role that source criticism plays
                          in the study of the Gospel of John. I appreciate your
                          watch analogy very much. It works well as a defense
                          against the fairly common assumption or practice that
                          disassembling the Fourth Gospel is a necessary first
                          step toward understanding it.

                          Your analogy of the watch gives rise in my mind to
                          the effort made by physicians to understand how the
                          human body works by studying cadavers. While being
                          able to describe the relationship between the organs
                          and pose theories about how each one functions,
                          physicians have long been frustrated in trying to
                          describe what it is that makes the whole organism
                          live.

                          I suspect much more will be learned as the study of
                          the human body continues into the future by those who
                          have developed ways to see the live organs
                          functioning, even down to the cellular level.
                          Studying the Gospel of John as a whole and living
                          document is much more satisfying than trying to reduce
                          it to a skeleton, then replacing its parts as their
                          function becomes clear or as a theory develops that
                          offers an explanation of why each part is where it is
                          in the body of the text as we have it.

                          A brief word of explanation is due regarding my
                          contention that multiple authors have contributed to
                          The Fourth Gospel. I am fascinated by Culpepper's
                          theory that the Gospel emerged as a work in progress
                          from a school. The most likely first century school,
                          in my opinion, from which such a product as the Fourth
                          Gospel could have emerged is a rabbinical school using
                          the Midrash method.

                          I begin from the assertion that the first generation
                          of Christians were almost entirely Jewish, and that
                          the first Christian theologians were most likely
                          trained in rabbinical schools, using the method most
                          popularly used to develop the ability of student
                          rabbis to expound upon the meaning of the Hebrew
                          Scriptures: the Midrash method, which I define simply
                          as the challenge of expounding on the meaning of
                          scripture by using the language of scripture.

                          The source material most often used in this method
                          is the Torah. I suspect, given that the Gospel is
                          written in Greek, that the Septuagint version of the
                          Torah was the primary source.

                          The challenge to the school would have been to
                          expound upon the meaning of the Jesus tradition using
                          the (Greek version) language of the Torah. That is
                          where the signs originate.

                          My burden of proof, as you have reminded me, is to
                          show that numerous different authors have contributed
                          to the content of the Fourth Gospel. I believe that
                          the "different hands" that can be identified in the
                          text are not necessarily the work of a final redactor,
                          but simply indicators that multiple authors
                          contributed to the document we now have. (In other
                          words, I am moving in a direction opposite to the one
                          being taken by those who are trying to identify the
                          hand of the redactor in order to "see" the "original"
                          text, assuming that this "original" text was a whole
                          organism before the redactor began tinkering with it.
                          My starting point is the assumption that the various
                          components of the text were separate units, originally
                          composed by different authors before being linked
                          together as one Gospel.)
                          The Jesus tradition was, at the end of the first and
                          beginning of the second century CE, both written and
                          oral. I can imagine that the Midrash reflections upon
                          that tradition began as oral commentaries (like oral
                          finals in a modern graduate school), but that they
                          were written as the community, under the inspired
                          leadership of the Beloved Disciple, recognized the
                          profound level of truth being revealed in them. These
                          written components would have been carefully guarded,
                          studied and used by the community of scholars as they
                          worked together to refine each component before
                          writing that edited component, tentatively, into the
                          body of the emerging text, a role most likely
                          carefully overseen by, if not actually composed by the
                          small number of key leaders of the community,
                          including the Beloved Disciple and an Elder of the
                          community. The emerging text then became the basic
                          tool used to train students in what we would now call
                          theological reflection.

                          The easiest place to begin to offer the proof for
                          this theory is with the Lazarus story, recognizing
                          that its inspiration most likely comes from the
                          parable told by Jesus according to the Gospel of Luke.
                          The Johannine Lazarus story, of course, is an
                          elaboration that goes far beyond the parable, while
                          still addressing the basic themes of death and
                          resurrection. In the Fourth Gospel this story plays a
                          pivotal role as a sort of denuement, making the
                          transition from the Book of Signs to the Book of
                          Glory.

                          You ask why there are no signs in the Book of
                          Glory. I believe there are signs in the Book of
                          Glory, but they are not as obviously placed as in the
                          Book of Signs. Essentially the Book of Signs is a
                          primer for the community, designed to train students
                          to find the signs, understand the context from which
                          they were taken (usually the Torah, but occasionally
                          from other parts of the Septuagint) and then apply
                          their meaning to the Johannine context in order to
                          offer a theological reflection on the meaning of that
                          part of the Jesus tradition.

                          The Book of Glory requires that the students have
                          already completed that basic course in expounding upon
                          the meaning of the tradition themselves, so that their
                          minds and souls can receive the reflections offered by
                          Jesus (according to the witness of the Beloved
                          Disciple?) to His own (followers) on the meaning of
                          His ministry and passion.

                          I have done some work on the use of the word "hour"
                          in the text of the Gospel. I believe that the 24
                          places where that word is used constitute markers at
                          the end of portions of the material where readers were
                          encouraged to contemplate the material they had just
                          read in order to discern the signs therein and
                          therefore to delve more deeply into the meaning of
                          what they had read. With some trepidation I find
                          myself disagreeing with Brown, who contends that there
                          is no reason to believe that the use of "hour" (ora)
                          is a component in the structure of the Gospel!

                          My study will be called "A Day with Jesus," because
                          I believe the 24 "hours" constitute one mystical day
                          in which those who seek to abide with Jesus may come
                          to know that Christ abides within them.

                          Well, I said I would be brief. Apparently my
                          intention to be brief has failed. Obviously defending
                          my thesis will require much more detail and scholarly
                          effort. I appreciate your challenge to bear the
                          burden of proof. A critical ear is an essential tool
                          to the shaping of any theory. Your time and attention
                          are extremely valuable to me. Thank you for offering
                          what you have offered so far. If you choose to
                          continue the dialogue, I pray that we will both grow
                          through the exchange, and that others may choose to
                          engage in the discussion with us.

                          Yours in Christ's service,
                          Tom Butler

                          --- "Marco V. Fabbri" <mv.fabbri@...> wrote:

                          > Tom,
                          >
                          > thank you for your reply. You promised it, and you
                          > kept your promise.
                          >
                          > I will write a short anwer, first, because there was
                          > some misunderstanding.
                          > I am not trying to divide the Gospel into a number
                          > of preexisting
                          > documents. I am just trying to understand the
                          > Gospel as we have it. There
                          > is no need to persuade me of the shortcomings of
                          > documentary theories,
                          > because I am already persuaded.
                          >
                          > When I teach John, I start by studying the Gospel as
                          > a whole, in order to
                          > find its structure. Only when I know the structure,
                          > I am able to recognize
                          > some part of the text as not belonging to the
                          > structure.
                          >
                          > The man that opens his watch and separates his
                          > components can learn
                          > something about how it works. However, if he wants
                          > the watch to work, he
                          > needs to know how to put the pieces together again.
                          > If he thinks that some
                          > pieces have no purpose, it doesn't mean that they
                          > haven't, but that he
                          > doesn't know what their purpose is. And if he is not
                          > prepared to learn that,
                          > his watch wont't ever work as it was meant to work,
                          > or it won't work at all.
                          >
                          > When I look at John 20,30-31, and notice that it
                          > speaks about signs, and
                          > look for the signs in the Gospel, and noticed that
                          > they are confined to John
                          > 2-12, I am not saying that the rest does not belong
                          > to the original Gospel.
                          > I am trying to understand the Gospel as it stands,
                          > and I as a legitimate
                          > question: why are there no "signs" in John 13-20?
                          > What is the function of
                          > those chapters? Here I accept the contributions from
                          > Dodd, who noticed the
                          > importance of the coming of the "hour" of Jesus, and
                          > from Brown, who
                          > recognizes the importance of "glory" in those
                          > chapters, and calls them "the
                          > book of glory".
                          >
                          > That being my stance, I think that whoever affirms
                          > that a part of the
                          > Gospel, whether it be a verse or a chapter, has been
                          > added later, he takes
                          > on himself the burden of proof. If he also maintains
                          > that the added part has
                          > been written by a different author, he takes on
                          > himself an additional burden
                          > of proof. This is why I took pains to prove a later
                          > origin of John 21. We
                          > can discuss my reasons, but I think that we agree
                          > that I need to prove my
                          > point. If I can't, then I have to admit that John 21
                          > is by the same hand as
                          > the rest of the Gospel, until somebody else can
                          > prove the point.
                          >
                          > As to the content of the reasons, you say that you
                          > refuted them. On my part,
                          > I don't agree, and I still think that the point is
                          > proved, as do the
                          > commentaries that you quote. But there are no
                          > discussions that are closed on
                          > the authority of anybody. Therefore, I wont' try to
                          > defend my option and
                          > pass judgement at the same time. Maybe I will engage
                          > in discussion later.
                          >
                          > Before that, I will raise a more general point. I
                          > think we agree that
                          > whoever affirms that different authors are at work
                          > has to prove that. If so,
                          > how can you assume that the Fourth Gospel is the
                          > work of a plurality of
                          > authors? It seems to me that you take on yourself a
                          > heavy burden of proof.
                          >
                          > Since the time I wrote the text you are answering
                          > to, I wrote on this same
                          > list that I don't believe that written texts in the
                          > antiquity were written
                          > by many people at the same time. There was no way
                          > that a text could be
                          > shared by many unless it was first written by one,
                          > then copied, then
                          > distributed, then read. And again, any intervention
                          > by others wouldn't be
                          > known unless it was copied by hand, then
                          > distributed, then read.
                          >
                          > Mind me, I don't deny that an author can draw from
                          > oral tradition, of from
                          > the decisions of a council, or whatever else. I
                          > maintain, however, that
                          > writing was a job that was done by one person at a
                          > time. This is why,
                          > whenever a scholar affirms joint authorship, he has
                          > to prove it. He can't
                          > assume it. So, I believe that I am right when I
                          > assume that John has been
                          > written by an individual, until the contrary is
                          > proven. I never read a proof
                          > that a group wrote the Gospel. I read some proofs
                          > that a different author
                          > wrote chapter 21, as is maintains by most modern
                          > scholars.
                          >
                          > Marco Fabbri

                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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