Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] bouncing?

Expand Messages
  • Jack Kilmon
    Just testing to see if I am bouncing. JK
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 18, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Just testing to see if I am bouncing.

      JK
    • Tom Butler
      Jack, I trust that your test, at least with reference to my e-mail address, proved that you are not bouncing. I wonder about the silence on the J-Lit list.
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 18, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        Jack,
        I trust that your test, at least with reference to
        my e-mail address, proved that you are not bouncing.
        I wonder about the silence on the J-Lit list. Are
        we all so busy that discussion of the Gospel has been
        placed on hold or has a different list been created
        where the discussion continues?

        Tom Butler

        --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:

        >
        > Just testing to see if I am bouncing.
        >
        > JK
        >
        >


        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      • Frank McCoy
        ... From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Butler Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:23 PM
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 18, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          -----Original Message-----
          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Tom Butler
          Sent: Saturday, November 18, 2006 5:23 PM
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] bouncing?

          Jack,
          I trust that your test, at least with reference to my e-mail address,
          proved that you are not bouncing. I wonder about the silence on the
          J-Lit list. Are we all so busy that discussion of the Gospel has been
          placed on hold or has a different list been created where the discussion
          continues?

          Dear Tom Butler:

          Some time ago, I voluntarily withdrew from participating in discussions
          since my knowledge of Greek is inadequate. But, I so deeply share your
          concern about the recent period of silence that I am going to break my
          own silence by making this one contribution, in the hopes that it will
          spark some discussion, and then go back to strictly "lurking".

          THE SAYING ON THE SANCTUARY

          Introduction


          Let us look at John 2:19-22, "Answered Jesus, and said to them (i.e.,
          the Jews), 'Destroy this sanctuary and in three days I will raise it.'
          Said, then, the Jews, 'This sanctuary was built in 46 years-and you will
          raise it in three days?' But that one was speaking about the sanctuary
          of his body. Therefore, when he was raised from the dead, his disciples
          remembered this that he was saying and the believed the scripture and
          the word which Jesus said."



          Note the cryptic reference to "the scripture". Raymond E. Brown
          states, "It is not clear if this is a reference to the OT in general or
          to a particular passage, e.g., Ps. xvi 10, or perhaps to Ps lxix 9 cited
          in vs. 17." <outbind://7/#_ftn1> [1]



          Here, it will be argued, there is another possible candidate for "the
          scripture ": and this is Amos 9:11 , but only as interpreted in the
          fourth stage of its interpretation-with the first two stages having
          taken place in the Qumran community.


          The First Stage in Interpreting Amos 9:11


          Let us look at this excerpt from the Damascus Document, "And all the
          apostates were given up to the sword, but those who held fast escaped to
          the land of the north, as God said, I will exile the tabernacle of your
          king and the bases of your statues from my tent to Damascus (Amos v,
          26-27). The Books of the Law are the tabernacle of the king; as God
          said, I will raise up the tabernacle of David which is fallen (Amos ix,
          11). The king is the congregation; and the bases of the statues are the
          books of the Prophets whose sayings Israel despised. The star is the
          Interpreter of the Law who shall come to Damascus; as it is written, A
          star shall come forth out of Jacob and a scepter shall rise out of
          Israel (Num. xxiv, 17. The scepter is the Prince of the whole
          congregation, and when he comes he shall smite all the children of Seth
          (Num. xxiv, 17)." <outbind://7/#_ftn2> [2]



          Here, Amos 9:11 is strongly linked to Amos 5:26-27.



          Here, Amos 9:11 is also linked to Numbers 24:17-which is interpreted to
          be a prophecy concerning the coming of two End-time figures:

          1. The Interpreter of the Law
          2. The Prince of the congregation

          In interpreting Amos 9:11:

          1. The tabernacle is taken to be the books of the Law, i.e., the
          Torah
          2. David is taken to be the king = the congregation.

          As a result, in this interpretation of Amos 9:11, the tabernacle of
          David is taken to be the Torah of the congregation.



          This is the proposed first stage in the interpreting of Amos 9:11


          The Second Stage in Interpreting Amos 9:11


          The next proposed stage in interpreting Amos 9:11 is found in this
          excerpt from 4Q174, "The lord declares to you that He will build you a
          House (2 Sam. vii, 11C). I will raise up your seed after you (2 Sam.
          vii, 12). I will establish the throne of his kingdom [for ever] (2 Sam.
          vii, 13). [I will be] his father and he shall be my son (2 Sam. vii,
          14). He is the Branch of David who shall arise with the Interpreter of
          the Law [to rule] in Zion [at the end] of time. As it is written, I
          will raise up the tent of David that is fallen (Amos ix, 11). That is
          to say, the fallen tent of David is he who shall arise to save Israel."



          Numbers 24:17, as interpreted in the excerpt from the Damascus Document
          given above, underlies this excerpt from 4Q174. As a result, in this
          excerpt from 4Q174:

          1. The Interpreter of the Law is the star of Numbers 24:17
          2. The Branch of David is the Prince of the congregation mentioned
          in the excerpt from the Damascus Document and he is the scepter of
          Number 24:17.

          This excerpt from 4Q174 begins by citing 2 Samuel 7:11c-13, where God
          speaks through the prophet Nathan to David. It is taken to be a
          prophecy regarding the Branch of David/the Prince of the congregation.
          As a result, it is understood, this Branch of David/the Prince of the
          congregation will be a descendent of David, he will rule forever, and he
          will be, in some meaningful sense, a Son of God.



          In this excerpt from 4Q174, Amos 9:11 is strongly linked to 2 Samuel
          7:11c-13. As a result:

          1. The tent of David is radically re-interpreted to be the Branch
          of David / the Prince of the congregation
          2. The "I" who speaks it is God

          Further, it appears, it is interpreted that the tent of David (i.e.,
          the Branch of David/the Prince of the congregation) will be fallen in
          the sense of having a lowly station in life, but then be raised up by
          God in the sense of being elevated to the status of ruler over Israel by
          God, thereby enabling him to save Israel from her enemies.



          This is the proposed second stage in the interpretation of Amos 9:11.
          <outbind://7/#_ftn3> [3]


          The Third Stage in Interpreting Amos 9:11


          Next, let us turn our attention to Romans 1:3b-4--where Paul states:

          Having come from the seed of David according to flesh; having been
          designated Son of God in power according to a Spirit of holiness out of
          a rising (anastasews) from the dead: Jesus Christ, our Lord.



          What Paul states here readily relates to three of the last four
          scriptural passages cited in the above excerpt from 4Q 174:

          1. The first part of Romans 1:3b-4, "Having come from the seed of
          David according to flesh", relates to the first of these last four
          scriptural passages cited in 4Q174, i.e., 2 Sam. 7:11c, "I will raise up
          your (i.e., David's) seed after you"-for each speaks of an individual
          who will be from the seed of David
          2. The second part of Romans 1:3b-4, "Having been designated Son of
          God in power according to a Spirit of holiness", relates to the second
          of these last four scriptural passages cited in 4Q 174, i.e., 2 Sam.
          7:13, "[I will be] his father and he shall be my son"-for each speaks of
          this individual as being, in some meaningful sense, a Son of God.
          3. The third part of Romans 1:3b-4, "Out of a rising (anastasews)
          from the dead", relates to the fourth of these four scriptural passages
          cited in 4Q174, i.e., Amos 9:11, "I will raise up the tent of David that
          is fallen"-for each refers to the rising/raising up of an individual
          <outbind://7/#_ftn4> [4]

          Note that Romans 1:3b-4 follows the sequential order of scriptural
          passages cited in the excerpt from 4Q174, merely skipping the second of
          these scriptural passages.



          This is a clear indication that Romans 1:3b-4 reflects a familiarity
          with the excerpt from 4Q174 and an approval of its strong linkage of 2
          Sam. 7:11c-13 with Amos 9:11.



          However, there are two quite evident differences in interpretation
          between Romans 1:3b-4 and the excerpt from 4Q174:

          1. In Romans 1:3b-4, the subject of 2 Sam. 7:11c-13 and Amos 9:11
          is taken to be Jesus as Christ and our Lord, but, in the excerpt from
          4Q174, this subject is taken to be the Branch of David / the Prince of
          the congregation
          2. In Romans 1:3b-4, the subject of these two passages is fallen in
          the sense of being slain and rises up in the sense of rising up from the
          dead, but, in the excerpt from 4Q174, this subject is fallen in the
          sense of having a lowly station in life and rises up in the sense of
          being elevated to the lofty status of ruler over Israel.

          As a result, in Romans 1:3b-4, we appear to have a third stage in the
          interpretation of Amos 9:11. In the second stage, the tent/tabernacle
          of David is the Branch of David/Prince of the congregation and this
          figure will be fallen in the sense of having a low status in society
          but, then, be raised by God in the sense of being elevated by God to
          being the King of Israel. However, in this third stage, the
          tent/tabernacle of David is the Christ/Lord and this figure will be
          fallen in the sense of having been killed but, then, be raised by God in
          the sense of being raised from the dead.



          This appears to a pre-Pauline stage in interpretation-for Romans 1:3b-4
          is quite un-Pauline. <outbind://7/#_ftn5> [5] So, it appears, Romans
          1:3b-4 is a pre-Pauline credo that is cited by Paul-presumably because
          the Roman church, to whom he was writing, was already familiar with it
          and accepted its validity.


          The Fourth Stage in Interpreting Amos 9:11


          Next, let us turn our attention to John 2:19-22, which reads, "Answered
          Jesus, and said to them (i.e., the Jews), 'Destroy this sanctuary (naon)
          and in three days I will raise (egerw) it.' Said, then, the Jews, 'This
          sanctuary (naos) was built (oikodomethe) in 46 years-and you will raise
          (egereis) it in three days?' But that one was speaking about the
          sanctuary (naou) of his body. Therefore, when he was raised (egerthe)
          from the dead, his disciples remembered this that he was saying and the
          believed the scripture and the word which Jesus said."



          Here, "the word which Jesus said" is this, "Destroy this sanctuary
          (naon) and in three days I will raise (egerw) it."



          Here, "the scripture" means "the scriptural basis for the word which
          Jesus said".



          As already mentioned, the scriptural passage(s) in mind is/are not
          clear.



          However, there are two considerations that might help us to find a
          primary scriptural passage behind the word of Jesus:

          1. The sanctuary (naos) was the inner part of Herod's temple
          (hieron), the Holy Place accessible only to priests, and it corresponded
          to the wilderness skene (tent or tabernacle).
          2. In the saying by the Jews (i.e., "This sanctuary (naos) was
          built (oikodomethe) in 46 years-and you will raise (egereis) it in three
          days?"), "will raise (egereis) the sanctuary (naos) in three days"
          means, in effect, "will rebuild (anoikodomesw) it in three days."
          <outbind://7/#_ftn6> [6]

          What these two considerations suggest is that the primary scriptural
          passage upon which the "word" of Jesus is based regards not the raising
          of a naos (sanctuary) but, rather, the rebuilding of a skene
          (tent/tabernacle).



          Indeed, there is a scriptural passage which does regard the rebuilding
          of a skene (tent/tabernacle)-and this is Amos 9:11-12 as rendered by
          Luke in Acts 15:16-18 <outbind://7/#_ftn7> [7], "I will rebuild
          (anoikodomesw) the skenen (tent/tabernacle) of David, the one having
          fallen, and the things of it having been torn down I will rebuild
          (anoikodomesw) and I will restore it, so that the ones remaining of men
          might seek out the Lord-and all the Gentiles upon whom my name has been
          invoked over them, says the Lord doing these things-known from the
          ages."



          So, I propose, Amos 9:11-12, as rendered in Acts 15:16-18, is the
          scriptural passage which is the primary basis for the "word" of Jesus,
          i.e., the saying, "Destroy this sanctuary (naon) and in three days I
          will raise (egerw) it."



          In this case, in John 2:19-22, the interpretation of Amos 9:11-12 is
          this:

          1. The Lord doing these things is Jesus and he is, as such, a
          pre-existent divine being "known from the ages"
          2. The skene (tent/tabernacle) of David is the naos (temple) and
          this, in turn, is the body of Jesus
          3. It is fallen in the sense that it has been "destroyed", i.e.,
          slain, by the Jews.
          4. It will be rebuilt in the sense that it will be raised up from
          the dead by the Lord, i.e., Jesus.

          The underlying thought appears to be that Jesus is a pre-existing divine
          being who became incarnate in the skene (tent/tabernacle) of David,
          i.e., in a fleshly body. Further, when his fleshly body was slain, he
          continued to exist and raised it from the dead in three days.



          Compare John 1:14a, "And the Word became flesh and eskenwsen
          (tented/tabernacled) among us." That is to say, the Word, a
          pre-existent divine being, became incarnate in the skene
          (tent/tabernacle) of David, i.e., in a fleshly body.



          So, in John 2:19-22, we appear to have a fourth stage in the
          interpretation of Amos 9:11. In this interpretation of Amos 9:11:

          1. The "I" is Jesus as the Logos
          2. The skene (tent/tabernacle) is the body of Jesus
          3. It is fallen in the sense that it has been slain by the Jews
          4. It will be rebuilt in the sense that it will be restored to
          life-being, thereby, raised up from the dead-by Jesus as the Logos.



          _____


          <outbind://7/#_ftnref1> [1] The Gospel According to John, p.116

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref2> [2] VII

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref3> [3] That the interpretation of Amos 9:11 in the
          excerpt from 4Q174 is later than the one in the excerpt from the
          Damascus Document is indicated by what immediately precedes the excerpt
          from 4Q174. What immediately precedes it reads, "And concerning His
          words to David, And I [will give] you [rest] from all your enemies (2
          Sam. vii, 11), this means that He will give them rest from all the
          children of Belial who cause them to stumble so that they may be
          destroyed [by their errors,] just as they came with a [devilish] plan
          to cause the [sons] of light to stumble and to devise against them a
          wicked plot, so [that they might become subject] to Belial in their
          [wicked] straying."

          Here, "David" is interpreted, as in the Damascus Document's
          interpretation of "the tent of David", to be "the congregation"-the
          members of whom, here, are called the sons of light.

          So, the author of 4Q174 does seem to be familiar with the excerpt from
          the Damascus Document and with how the phrase "the tent of David" is
          interpreted in it. As a result, that his own interpretation of this
          phrase is radically different from the interpretation of it in the
          excerpt from the Damascus Document is an indication that his own
          interpretation of it is later than the interpretation of it to be found
          in the Damascus Document.

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref4> [4] In 4Q174 the "tent of David" that will
          "fall" and then "arise" is identified as being an individual-for it
          contains the statement, "That is to say, the fallen tent of David is he
          who shall arise to save Israel."

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref5> [5] To the best of my knowledge, there is no
          evidence that Paul ever utilized a DSS document in the manner that 4Q174
          appears to have been utilized by the initial author of what we find in
          Romans 1:3b-4. Also, the emphasis of Romans 1:3b-4 on the Davidic
          descent of Jesus is not characteristically Pauline. Finally, it is
          un-Pauline in that no salvific significance is given to the death and
          resurrection of Jesus. As a result, it appears, what we find in Romans
          1:3b-4 is a pre-Pauline credo.

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref6> [6] So, in the Gospel of John (p. 125), Rudolph
          Bultmann freely renders the last part of the "word" of Jesus as, "I will
          (re-) build it in three days!"

          <outbind://7/#_ftnref7> [7] This version of Amos 9:11b significantly
          differs from the Septuagint version of it. Luke attributes its usage to
          a person he calls James and who, in the context, is clearly James, the
          brother of Jesus.


          <http://geo.yahoo.com/serv?s=97359714/grpId=1164713/grpspId=1705074057/m
          sgId=5484/stime=1163892969>
          Frank McCoy
          1809 N. English Apt. 15
          Maplewood, MN USA 55109



          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Bob MacDonald
          Frank McCoy All the lists are silent except a few. I think the scholars have gone blogging I have an interest in what you refer to in the temple saying - the
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 18, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            Frank McCoy

            All the lists are silent except a few. I think the scholars have gone
            blogging

            I have an interest in what you refer to in the temple saying - the question
            is simple: how did the first century writers read 'the scripture'?

            Example: the dialogue between the Father and the Son in Hebrews is all taken
            from the Psalter. This 'reading' of the psalms from the first century has
            led me to study them more closely.

            Why did they read them this way when faced with their experience of Jesus in
            the life of Israel? While I am particularly interested in the psalms, John
            has some intriguing readings of Scripture that we have discussed before -
            the 'out of his belly' quote for instance.

            Also some have claimed that the scriptures provided a hypotext against which
            the writers constructed their stories; I don't think I am interested in
            going to that conclusion, but the first century authors knew their
            scriptures better than we do - no TV, no distractions - so why did they use
            them to focus on Jesus and the Spirit as they did?

            This response is tangential to your note - but you did suggest Psalm 16:10
            (I haven't got there in my study yet). The 'Holy One' in this passage is
            hesideka - 'your beloved' - interesting that it is not the tsadiq
            (righteous) or a root related to qodesh (holy) but the root related to mercy
            / loving kindness.

            I will be another 4 years studying the Psalter - my Hebrew is at a
            3-year-old reading level - so it is too early for me to consider this
            question related to a first century writer.

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            Victoria BC
            http://gx.ca
            http://bmd.gx.ca
          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.