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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Bill Bullin
    Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
      Hi John

      It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
      spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
      note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
      palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
      background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
      bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
      inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
      name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
      most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
      when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
      title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
      could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
      rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
      gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
      carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
      Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
      consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
      appeared with the three men in the furnace.

      Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      > Hi All,
      >
      > Regarding this thrice saying,
      > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
      > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
      >
      > Has anyone any research on
      > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
      > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
      >
      > Why not twice ...or four times?
      > I feel that there is some
      > further significance to be gained here.
      >
      > Love to All,
      > John.
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Tom Butler
      Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
        Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

        I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
        *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
        and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

        Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
        I see words of ordination.

        (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
        that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
        (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
        in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

        I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
        based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
        little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
        Johannine literature are the members, especially the
        newest members, of the community (the household).

        (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

        I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
        from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
        Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
        sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
        Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
        newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
        like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
        flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
        role of elder.

        (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
        a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
        to see.

        As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
        words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
        Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
        that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
        Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

        Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
        gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
        between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
        "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
        I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
        intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
        authority within the Johannine community as had
        already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
        "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
        involves offering the spiritual food given in the
        Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

        I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
        gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
        established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
        acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
        Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
        the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
        Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
        Peter's authority.

        The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
        Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
        of the Beloved Disciple.

        Yours in Christ's service,
        Tom Butler


        --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

        >
        > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
        > this in Raymond
        > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
        > series, but I do recall
        > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
        > between the two episodes.
        > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
        > atonement exactly,
        > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
        > discipleship -- maybe
        > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
        > interpretation. Jesus clearly
        > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
        > saying -- "Peter,
        > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
        > to do from now on..."
        >
        > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
        > comment more directly.
        >
        > Fred Guyette
        > Erskine College and Seminary
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > John Bailey wrote:
        >
        > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
        > >
        > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
        > resurrection
        > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
        > >three times whether he loves him.
        > >
        > >This is a form of atonement
        > >for the the three denials?
        > >
        > >Love, John.
        > >
        > >
        > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
        > Butler
        > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >>Joe,
        > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        > >>there and found one paper written by you on
        > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        > >>referring?
        > >>
        > >>Tom Butler
        > >>
        > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
        > >>>tomb:
        > >>>
        > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        > >>>
        > >>>Best regards,
        > >>>Joe C.
        > >>>
        > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
        > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
        > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
        > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
        > >>
        > >>
        > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > >
        > >
        > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
        > color=#0000ff>Tom
        > >>
        > >>
        > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
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        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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