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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • John Bailey
    Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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      Thank you Joe,

      That subtle nuance is wonderful.
      The significance of the event
      is made all the more valuable for me.

      It takes time to appreciate it,
      but what a magical forum this is.

      Love to all you beautiful people,
      John.


      > John Bailey wrote:
      >
      > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
      > >
      > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
      > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
      > >three times whether he loves him.
      > >
      > >This is a form of atonement
      > >for the the three denials?
      > >
      > >Love, John.
      > >
      > >
      > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
      > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
      > >
      > >
      > >>Joe,
      > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
      > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
      > >>there and found one paper written by you on
      > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
      > >>referring?
      > >>
      > >>Tom Butler
      > >>
      > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>
      > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
      > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
      > >>>
      > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
      > >>>
      > >>>Best regards,
      > >>>Joe C.
      > >>>
      > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
      > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
      > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
      > >>>
      > >>>
      > Yours in Christ's service
      > >
      > Tom Butler
      > >
      > >
      > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
      that Jesus was
      > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
      the
      > passage carries a great deal more than that
      > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
      text
      > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
      > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
      time
      > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
      > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
      what
      > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
      > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
      love
      > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
      > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
      is at
      > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
      > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
      stayed
      > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
      > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
      noted in the Synoptics.
    • John Bailey
      Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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        Hi All,

        Regarding this thrice saying,
        in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
        embrace the idea of its efficacy.

        Has anyone any research on
        Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
        that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

        Why not twice ...or four times?
        I feel that there is some
        further significance to be gained here.

        Love to All,
        John.
      • Tony Costa
        It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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          It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
          the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

          Tony Costa
          Toronto, Canada

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
          Messiah


          > Hi All,
          >
          > Regarding this thrice saying,
          > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
          > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
          >
          > Has anyone any research on
          > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
          > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
          >
          > Why not twice ...or four times?
          > I feel that there is some
          > further significance to be gained here.
          >
          > Love to All,
          > John.
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Bill Bullin
          Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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            Hi John

            It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
            spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
            note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
            palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
            background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
            bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
            inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
            name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
            most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
            when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
            title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
            could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
            rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
            gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
            carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
            Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
            consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
            appeared with the three men in the furnace.

            Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
            Messiah


            > Hi All,
            >
            > Regarding this thrice saying,
            > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
            > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
            >
            > Has anyone any research on
            > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
            > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
            >
            > Why not twice ...or four times?
            > I feel that there is some
            > further significance to be gained here.
            >
            > Love to All,
            > John.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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            > Yahoo! Groups Links
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            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tom Butler
            Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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              Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

              I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
              *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
              and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

              Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
              I see words of ordination.

              (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
              that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
              (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
              in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

              I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
              based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
              little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
              Johannine literature are the members, especially the
              newest members, of the community (the household).

              (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

              I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
              from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
              Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
              sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
              Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
              newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
              like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
              flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
              role of elder.

              (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
              a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
              to see.

              As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
              words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
              Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
              that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
              Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

              Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
              gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
              between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
              "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
              I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
              intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
              authority within the Johannine community as had
              already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
              "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
              involves offering the spiritual food given in the
              Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

              I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
              gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
              established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
              acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
              Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
              the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
              Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
              Peter's authority.

              The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
              Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
              of the Beloved Disciple.

              Yours in Christ's service,
              Tom Butler


              --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

              >
              > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
              > this in Raymond
              > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
              > series, but I do recall
              > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
              > between the two episodes.
              > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
              > atonement exactly,
              > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
              > discipleship -- maybe
              > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
              > interpretation. Jesus clearly
              > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
              > saying -- "Peter,
              > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
              > to do from now on..."
              >
              > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
              > comment more directly.
              >
              > Fred Guyette
              > Erskine College and Seminary
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > John Bailey wrote:
              >
              > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
              > >
              > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
              > resurrection
              > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
              > >three times whether he loves him.
              > >
              > >This is a form of atonement
              > >for the the three denials?
              > >
              > >Love, John.
              > >
              > >
              > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
              > Butler
              > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > >>Joe,
              > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              > >>there and found one paper written by you on
              > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              > >>referring?
              > >>
              > >>Tom Butler
              > >>
              > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>
              > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
              > >>>tomb:
              > >>>
              > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              > >>>
              > >>>Best regards,
              > >>>Joe C.
              > >>>
              > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
              > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
              > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
              > >>>
              > >>>
              > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
              > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              > >>
              > >>
              > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              > >
              > >
              > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
              > color=#0000ff>Tom
              > >>
              > >>
              > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
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              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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              >
              >
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              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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