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RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Paul Anderson
    An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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      An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
      theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
      discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
      from a narratological standpoint.

      The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
      feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
      where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
      local tradition.

      Paul Anderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
      Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah

      It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
      of
      John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
      christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

      On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
      scene
      reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
      10:13-16a
      and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
      Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
      honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
      the
      Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
      father
      and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

      Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
      >
      > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
      > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
      > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
      do
      > exist between those two chapters.
      >
      > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
      > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
      > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
      made,
      > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
      textual
      > evidence is weak on that score.
      >
      > Paul Anderson
      >




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    • John Bailey
      Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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        Thank you Joe,

        That subtle nuance is wonderful.
        The significance of the event
        is made all the more valuable for me.

        It takes time to appreciate it,
        but what a magical forum this is.

        Love to all you beautiful people,
        John.


        > John Bailey wrote:
        >
        > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
        > >
        > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
        > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
        > >three times whether he loves him.
        > >
        > >This is a form of atonement
        > >for the the three denials?
        > >
        > >Love, John.
        > >
        > >
        > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
        > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
        > >
        > >
        > >>Joe,
        > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        > >>there and found one paper written by you on
        > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        > >>referring?
        > >>
        > >>Tom Butler
        > >>
        > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>
        > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
        > >>>
        > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        > >>>
        > >>>Best regards,
        > >>>Joe C.
        > >>>
        > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
        > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
        > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
        > >>>
        > >>>
        > Yours in Christ's service
        > >
        > Tom Butler
        > >
        > >
        > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
        that Jesus was
        > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
        the
        > passage carries a great deal more than that
        > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
        text
        > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
        > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
        time
        > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
        > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
        what
        > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
        > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
        love
        > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
        > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
        is at
        > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
        > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
        stayed
        > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
        > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
        noted in the Synoptics.
      • John Bailey
        Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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          Hi All,

          Regarding this thrice saying,
          in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
          embrace the idea of its efficacy.

          Has anyone any research on
          Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
          that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

          Why not twice ...or four times?
          I feel that there is some
          further significance to be gained here.

          Love to All,
          John.
        • Tony Costa
          It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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            It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
            the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

            Tony Costa
            Toronto, Canada

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
            Messiah


            > Hi All,
            >
            > Regarding this thrice saying,
            > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
            > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
            >
            > Has anyone any research on
            > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
            > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
            >
            > Why not twice ...or four times?
            > I feel that there is some
            > further significance to be gained here.
            >
            > Love to All,
            > John.
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Bill Bullin
            Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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              Hi John

              It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
              spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
              note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
              palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
              background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
              bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
              inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
              name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
              most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
              when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
              title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
              could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
              rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
              gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
              carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
              Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
              consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
              appeared with the three men in the furnace.

              Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
              Messiah


              > Hi All,
              >
              > Regarding this thrice saying,
              > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
              > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
              >
              > Has anyone any research on
              > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
              > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
              >
              > Why not twice ...or four times?
              > I feel that there is some
              > further significance to be gained here.
              >
              > Love to All,
              > John.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Tom Butler
              Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                I see words of ordination.

                (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                newest members, of the community (the household).

                (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                role of elder.

                (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                to see.

                As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                authority within the Johannine community as had
                already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                Peter's authority.

                The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                of the Beloved Disciple.

                Yours in Christ's service,
                Tom Butler


                --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                >
                > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                > this in Raymond
                > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                > series, but I do recall
                > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                > between the two episodes.
                > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                > atonement exactly,
                > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                > discipleship -- maybe
                > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                > saying -- "Peter,
                > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                > to do from now on..."
                >
                > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                > comment more directly.
                >
                > Fred Guyette
                > Erskine College and Seminary
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > John Bailey wrote:
                >
                > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                > >
                > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                > resurrection
                > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                > >three times whether he loves him.
                > >
                > >This is a form of atonement
                > >for the the three denials?
                > >
                > >Love, John.
                > >
                > >
                > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                > Butler
                > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                > >
                > >
                > >>Joe,
                > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                > >>referring?
                > >>
                > >>Tom Butler
                > >>
                > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>
                > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                > >>>tomb:
                > >>>
                > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                > >>>
                > >>>Best regards,
                > >>>Joe C.
                > >>>
                > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                > >>>
                > >>>
                > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                > >>
                > >>
                > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                > >
                > >
                > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                > color=#0000ff>Tom
                > >>
                > >>
                > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
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                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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