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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Bill Bullin
    It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
      It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
      John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
      christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

      On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
      reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
      and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
      Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
      honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
      Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
      and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

      Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
      >
      > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
      > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
      > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
      > exist between those two chapters.
      >
      > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
      > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
      > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
      > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
      > evidence is weak on that score.
      >
      > Paul Anderson
      >
    • Paul Anderson
      An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
        An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
        theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
        discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
        from a narratological standpoint.

        The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
        feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
        where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
        local tradition.

        Paul Anderson

        -----Original Message-----
        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
        Messiah

        It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
        of
        John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
        christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

        On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
        scene
        reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
        10:13-16a
        and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
        Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
        honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
        the
        Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
        father
        and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
        Messiah


        > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
        >
        > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
        > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
        > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
        do
        > exist between those two chapters.
        >
        > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
        > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
        > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
        made,
        > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
        textual
        > evidence is weak on that score.
        >
        > Paul Anderson
        >




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      • John Bailey
        Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
          Thank you Joe,

          That subtle nuance is wonderful.
          The significance of the event
          is made all the more valuable for me.

          It takes time to appreciate it,
          but what a magical forum this is.

          Love to all you beautiful people,
          John.


          > John Bailey wrote:
          >
          > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
          > >
          > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
          > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
          > >three times whether he loves him.
          > >
          > >This is a form of atonement
          > >for the the three denials?
          > >
          > >Love, John.
          > >
          > >
          > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
          > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > >>Joe,
          > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          > >>there and found one paper written by you on
          > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          > >>referring?
          > >>
          > >>Tom Butler
          > >>
          > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>
          > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
          > >>>
          > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          > >>>
          > >>>Best regards,
          > >>>Joe C.
          > >>>
          > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
          > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
          > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
          > >>>
          > >>>
          > Yours in Christ's service
          > >
          > Tom Butler
          > >
          > >
          > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
          that Jesus was
          > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
          the
          > passage carries a great deal more than that
          > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
          text
          > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
          > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
          time
          > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
          > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
          what
          > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
          > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
          love
          > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
          > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
          is at
          > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
          > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
          stayed
          > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
          > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
          noted in the Synoptics.
        • John Bailey
          Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
            Hi All,

            Regarding this thrice saying,
            in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
            embrace the idea of its efficacy.

            Has anyone any research on
            Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
            that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

            Why not twice ...or four times?
            I feel that there is some
            further significance to be gained here.

            Love to All,
            John.
          • Tony Costa
            It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
              It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
              the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

              Tony Costa
              Toronto, Canada

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
              Messiah


              > Hi All,
              >
              > Regarding this thrice saying,
              > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
              > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
              >
              > Has anyone any research on
              > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
              > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
              >
              > Why not twice ...or four times?
              > I feel that there is some
              > further significance to be gained here.
              >
              > Love to All,
              > John.
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Bill Bullin
              Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                Hi John

                It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                > Hi All,
                >
                > Regarding this thrice saying,
                > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                >
                > Has anyone any research on
                > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                >
                > Why not twice ...or four times?
                > I feel that there is some
                > further significance to be gained here.
                >
                > Love to All,
                > John.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Tom Butler
                Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                  Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                  I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                  *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                  and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                  Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                  I see words of ordination.

                  (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                  that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                  (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                  in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                  I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                  based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                  little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                  Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                  newest members, of the community (the household).

                  (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                  I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                  from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                  Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                  sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                  Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                  newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                  like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                  flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                  role of elder.

                  (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                  a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                  to see.

                  As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                  words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                  Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                  that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                  Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                  Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                  gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                  between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                  "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                  I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                  intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                  authority within the Johannine community as had
                  already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                  "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                  involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                  Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                  I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                  gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                  established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                  acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                  Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                  the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                  Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                  Peter's authority.

                  The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                  Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                  of the Beloved Disciple.

                  Yours in Christ's service,
                  Tom Butler


                  --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                  >
                  > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                  > this in Raymond
                  > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                  > series, but I do recall
                  > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                  > between the two episodes.
                  > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                  > atonement exactly,
                  > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                  > discipleship -- maybe
                  > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                  > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                  > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                  > saying -- "Peter,
                  > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                  > to do from now on..."
                  >
                  > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                  > comment more directly.
                  >
                  > Fred Guyette
                  > Erskine College and Seminary
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > John Bailey wrote:
                  >
                  > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  > >
                  > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                  > resurrection
                  > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  > >three times whether he loves him.
                  > >
                  > >This is a form of atonement
                  > >for the the three denials?
                  > >
                  > >Love, John.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                  > Butler
                  > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>Joe,
                  > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                  > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  > >>referring?
                  > >>
                  > >>Tom Butler
                  > >>
                  > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                  > >>>tomb:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                  > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Best regards,
                  > >>>Joe C.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                  > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                  > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                  > color=#0000ff>Tom
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                  >
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been
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                  >
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                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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