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RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Paul Anderson
    Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
      Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

      At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
      relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
      original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
      exist between those two chapters.

      As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
      was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
      the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
      though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
      evidence is weak on that score.

      Paul Anderson

      -----Original Message-----
      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      > Jack:
      >
      > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
      > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
      > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

      Of course.



      > There are so many marks
      > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
      > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
      > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
      > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
      > use of agapaw
      > use of amen, amen
      > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
      > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
      > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
      >
      > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
      over
      > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
      > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
      > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
      > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

      John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
      Galilee.
      It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
      already
      occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
      question
      of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
      Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
      restoration
      of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
      editors
      would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
      would
      display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
      manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
      century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
      Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
      Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

      Jack



      >
      > mark
      >
      >
      > Mark A. Matson
      > Academic Dean
      > Milligan College
      > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
      >
      >
      >> -----Original Message-----
      >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
      Kilmon
      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
      >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
      >> northern Messiah
      >>
      >>
      >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
      >> ch. 21 may
      >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
      >> and the 3 denials
      >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
      >>
      >> Jack
      >>
      >>
      >> ----- Original Message -----
      >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
      >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
      >> northern
      >> Messiah
      >>
      >>
      >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
      >> >
      >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
      >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
      >> > three times whether he loves him.
      >> >
      >> > This is a form of atonement
      >> > for the the three denials?
      >> >
      >> > Love, John.
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
      >> <pastor_t@...>
      >> > wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >> Joe,
      >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
      >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
      >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
      >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
      >> >> referring?
      >> >>
      >> >> Tom Butler
      >> >>
      >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
      >> >>
      >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
      >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
      >> >> > tomb:
      >> >> >
      >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
      >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
      >> >> >
      >> >> > Best regards,
      >> >> > Joe C.
      >> >> >
      >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
      >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
      >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
      >> >>
      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
      >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
      >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >> >>
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >>
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      >
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    • Bill Bullin
      It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
        It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
        John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
        christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

        On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
        reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
        and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
        Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
        honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
        Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
        and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
        Messiah


        > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
        >
        > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
        > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
        > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
        > exist between those two chapters.
        >
        > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
        > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
        > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
        > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
        > evidence is weak on that score.
        >
        > Paul Anderson
        >
      • Paul Anderson
        An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
          An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
          theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
          discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
          from a narratological standpoint.

          The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
          feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
          where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
          local tradition.

          Paul Anderson

          -----Original Message-----
          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
          Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
          Messiah

          It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
          of
          John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
          christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

          On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
          scene
          reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
          10:13-16a
          and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
          Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
          honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
          the
          Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
          father
          and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

          Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
          Messiah


          > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
          >
          > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
          > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
          > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
          do
          > exist between those two chapters.
          >
          > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
          > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
          > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
          made,
          > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
          textual
          > evidence is weak on that score.
          >
          > Paul Anderson
          >




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        • John Bailey
          Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
            Thank you Joe,

            That subtle nuance is wonderful.
            The significance of the event
            is made all the more valuable for me.

            It takes time to appreciate it,
            but what a magical forum this is.

            Love to all you beautiful people,
            John.


            > John Bailey wrote:
            >
            > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
            > >
            > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            > >three times whether he loves him.
            > >
            > >This is a form of atonement
            > >for the the three denials?
            > >
            > >Love, John.
            > >
            > >
            > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
            > >
            > >
            > >>Joe,
            > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            > >>there and found one paper written by you on
            > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            > >>referring?
            > >>
            > >>Tom Butler
            > >>
            > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>
            > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
            > >>>
            > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            > >>>
            > >>>Best regards,
            > >>>Joe C.
            > >>>
            > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
            > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
            > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
            > >>>
            > >>>
            > Yours in Christ's service
            > >
            > Tom Butler
            > >
            > >
            > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
            that Jesus was
            > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
            the
            > passage carries a great deal more than that
            > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
            text
            > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
            > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
            time
            > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
            > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
            what
            > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
            > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
            love
            > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
            > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
            is at
            > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
            > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
            stayed
            > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
            > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
            noted in the Synoptics.
          • John Bailey
            Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
              Hi All,

              Regarding this thrice saying,
              in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
              embrace the idea of its efficacy.

              Has anyone any research on
              Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
              that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

              Why not twice ...or four times?
              I feel that there is some
              further significance to be gained here.

              Love to All,
              John.
            • Tony Costa
              It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
                It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                Tony Costa
                Toronto, Canada

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                > Hi All,
                >
                > Regarding this thrice saying,
                > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                >
                > Has anyone any research on
                > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                >
                > Why not twice ...or four times?
                > I feel that there is some
                > further significance to be gained here.
                >
                > Love to All,
                > John.
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Bill Bullin
                Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                  Hi John

                  It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                  spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                  note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                  palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                  background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                  bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                  inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                  name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                  most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                  when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                  title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                  could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                  rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                  gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                  carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                  Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                  consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                  appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                  Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                  Messiah


                  > Hi All,
                  >
                  > Regarding this thrice saying,
                  > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                  > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                  >
                  > Has anyone any research on
                  > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                  > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                  >
                  > Why not twice ...or four times?
                  > I feel that there is some
                  > further significance to be gained here.
                  >
                  > Love to All,
                  > John.
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                • Tom Butler
                  Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                    Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                    I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                    *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                    and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                    Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                    I see words of ordination.

                    (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                    that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                    (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                    in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                    I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                    based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                    little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                    Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                    newest members, of the community (the household).

                    (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                    I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                    from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                    Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                    sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                    Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                    newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                    like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                    flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                    role of elder.

                    (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                    a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                    to see.

                    As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                    words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                    Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                    that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                    Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                    Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                    gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                    between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                    "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                    I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                    intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                    authority within the Johannine community as had
                    already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                    "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                    involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                    Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                    I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                    gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                    established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                    acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                    Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                    the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                    Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                    Peter's authority.

                    The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                    Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                    of the Beloved Disciple.

                    Yours in Christ's service,
                    Tom Butler


                    --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                    >
                    > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                    > this in Raymond
                    > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                    > series, but I do recall
                    > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                    > between the two episodes.
                    > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                    > atonement exactly,
                    > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                    > discipleship -- maybe
                    > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                    > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                    > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                    > saying -- "Peter,
                    > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                    > to do from now on..."
                    >
                    > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                    > comment more directly.
                    >
                    > Fred Guyette
                    > Erskine College and Seminary
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > John Bailey wrote:
                    >
                    > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                    > >
                    > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                    > resurrection
                    > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                    > >three times whether he loves him.
                    > >
                    > >This is a form of atonement
                    > >for the the three denials?
                    > >
                    > >Love, John.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                    > Butler
                    > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >>Joe,
                    > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                    > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                    > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                    > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                    > >>referring?
                    > >>
                    > >>Tom Butler
                    > >>
                    > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                    > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                    > >>>tomb:
                    > >>>
                    > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                    > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                    > >>>
                    > >>>Best regards,
                    > >>>Joe C.
                    > >>>
                    > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                    > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                    > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                    > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                    > >>>
                    > >>>
                    > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                    > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                    > color=#0000ff>Tom
                    > >>
                    > >>
                    > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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