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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Jack Kilmon
    I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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      I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
      have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
      are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

      Jack


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
      Messiah


      > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
      >
      > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
      > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
      > three times whether he loves him.
      >
      > This is a form of atonement
      > for the the three denials?
      >
      > Love, John.
      >
      >
      > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
      > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
      >>
      >> Joe,
      >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
      >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
      >> there and found one paper written by you on
      >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
      >> referring?
      >>
      >> Tom Butler
      >>
      >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
      >>
      >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
      >> > site to the stone of Jesus
      >> > tomb:
      >> >
      >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
      >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
      >> >
      >> > Best regards,
      >> > Joe C.
      >> >
      >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
      >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
      >> > SUNY Stony Brook
      >>
      >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
      > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
      > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
      Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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        Jack:

        IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
        to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
        editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
        of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
        grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
        makes it thoroughly Johannine:
        use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
        use of agapaw
        use of amen, amen
        historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
        simple paratactic construction for dialogue
        I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

        But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
        to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
        thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
        John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
        But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

        mark


        Mark A. Matson
        Academic Dean
        Milligan College
        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


        > -----Original Message-----
        > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
        > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
        > northern Messiah
        >
        >
        > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
        > ch. 21 may
        > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
        > and the 3 denials
        > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
        >
        > Jack
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
        > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
        > northern
        > Messiah
        >
        >
        > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
        > >
        > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
        > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
        > > three times whether he loves him.
        > >
        > > This is a form of atonement
        > > for the the three denials?
        > >
        > > Love, John.
        > >
        > >
        > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
        > <pastor_t@...>
        > > wrote:
        > >>
        > >> Joe,
        > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        > >> there and found one paper written by you on
        > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        > >> referring?
        > >>
        > >> Tom Butler
        > >>
        > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
        > >>
        > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
        > >> > tomb:
        > >> >
        > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        > >> >
        > >> > Best regards,
        > >> > Joe C.
        > >> >
        > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
        > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
        > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
        > >>
        > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
        > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
        > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > >>
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
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        > >
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      • Jack Kilmon
        ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
          Messiah


          > Jack:
          >
          > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
          > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
          > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

          Of course.



          > There are so many marks
          > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
          > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
          > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
          > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
          > use of agapaw
          > use of amen, amen
          > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
          > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
          > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
          >
          > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
          > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
          > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
          > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
          > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

          John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
          It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
          occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
          of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
          Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
          of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
          would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
          display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
          manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
          century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
          Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
          Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

          Jack



          >
          > mark
          >
          >
          > Mark A. Matson
          > Academic Dean
          > Milligan College
          > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
          >
          >
          >> -----Original Message-----
          >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
          >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
          >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
          >> northern Messiah
          >>
          >>
          >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
          >> ch. 21 may
          >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
          >> and the 3 denials
          >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
          >>
          >> Jack
          >>
          >>
          >> ----- Original Message -----
          >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
          >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
          >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
          >> northern
          >> Messiah
          >>
          >>
          >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
          >> >
          >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
          >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
          >> > three times whether he loves him.
          >> >
          >> > This is a form of atonement
          >> > for the the three denials?
          >> >
          >> > Love, John.
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
          >> <pastor_t@...>
          >> > wrote:
          >> >>
          >> >> Joe,
          >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
          >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          >> >> referring?
          >> >>
          >> >> Tom Butler
          >> >>
          >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
          >> >>
          >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
          >> >> > tomb:
          >> >> >
          >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
          >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          >> >> >
          >> >> > Best regards,
          >> >> > Joe C.
          >> >> >
          >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
          >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
          >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
          >> >>
          >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
          >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
          >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >> >>
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
          >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >> >
          >>
          >>
          >>
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          >>
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          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
          >>
          >>
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          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
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        • Paul Anderson
          Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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            Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

            At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
            relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
            original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
            exist between those two chapters.

            As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
            was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
            the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
            though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
            evidence is weak on that score.

            Paul Anderson

            -----Original Message-----
            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
            Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
            Messiah


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
            Messiah


            > Jack:
            >
            > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
            > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
            > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

            Of course.



            > There are so many marks
            > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
            > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
            > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
            > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
            > use of agapaw
            > use of amen, amen
            > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
            > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
            > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
            >
            > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
            over
            > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
            > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
            > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
            > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

            John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
            Galilee.
            It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
            already
            occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
            question
            of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
            Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
            restoration
            of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
            editors
            would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
            would
            display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
            manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
            century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
            Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
            Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

            Jack



            >
            > mark
            >
            >
            > Mark A. Matson
            > Academic Dean
            > Milligan College
            > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
            >
            >
            >> -----Original Message-----
            >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
            Kilmon
            >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
            >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
            >> northern Messiah
            >>
            >>
            >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
            >> ch. 21 may
            >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
            >> and the 3 denials
            >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
            >>
            >> Jack
            >>
            >>
            >> ----- Original Message -----
            >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
            >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
            >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
            >> northern
            >> Messiah
            >>
            >>
            >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
            >> >
            >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            >> > three times whether he loves him.
            >> >
            >> > This is a form of atonement
            >> > for the the three denials?
            >> >
            >> > Love, John.
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            >> <pastor_t@...>
            >> > wrote:
            >> >>
            >> >> Joe,
            >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
            >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            >> >> referring?
            >> >>
            >> >> Tom Butler
            >> >>
            >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
            >> >>
            >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
            >> >> > tomb:
            >> >> >
            >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            >> >> >
            >> >> > Best regards,
            >> >> > Joe C.
            >> >> >
            >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
            >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
            >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
            >> >>
            >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
            >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >> >>
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
            johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            >> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
            >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
            >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >> >
            >>
            >>
            >>
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            >>
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            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >
            >
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            >



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          • Bill Bullin
            It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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              It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
              John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
              christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

              On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
              reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
              and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
              Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
              honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
              Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
              and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

              Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
              Messiah


              > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
              >
              > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
              > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
              > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
              > exist between those two chapters.
              >
              > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
              > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
              > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
              > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
              > evidence is weak on that score.
              >
              > Paul Anderson
              >
            • Paul Anderson
              An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                from a narratological standpoint.

                The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                local tradition.

                Paul Anderson

                -----Original Message-----
                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah

                It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                of
                John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                scene
                reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                10:13-16a
                and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                the
                Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                father
                and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                >
                > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                do
                > exist between those two chapters.
                >
                > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                made,
                > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                textual
                > evidence is weak on that score.
                >
                > Paul Anderson
                >




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              • John Bailey
                Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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                  Thank you Joe,

                  That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                  The significance of the event
                  is made all the more valuable for me.

                  It takes time to appreciate it,
                  but what a magical forum this is.

                  Love to all you beautiful people,
                  John.


                  > John Bailey wrote:
                  >
                  > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  > >
                  > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                  > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  > >three times whether he loves him.
                  > >
                  > >This is a form of atonement
                  > >for the the three denials?
                  > >
                  > >Love, John.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                  > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >>Joe,
                  > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                  > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  > >>referring?
                  > >>
                  > >>Tom Butler
                  > >>
                  > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>
                  > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                  > >>>
                  > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Best regards,
                  > >>>Joe C.
                  > >>>
                  > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                  > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                  > >>>
                  > >>>
                  > Yours in Christ's service
                  > >
                  > Tom Butler
                  > >
                  > >
                  > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                  that Jesus was
                  > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                  the
                  > passage carries a great deal more than that
                  > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                  text
                  > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                  > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                  time
                  > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                  > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                  what
                  > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                  > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                  love
                  > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                  > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                  is at
                  > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                  > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                  stayed
                  > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                  > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                  noted in the Synoptics.
                • John Bailey
                  Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                    Hi All,

                    Regarding this thrice saying,
                    in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                    embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                    Has anyone any research on
                    Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                    that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                    Why not twice ...or four times?
                    I feel that there is some
                    further significance to be gained here.

                    Love to All,
                    John.
                  • Tony Costa
                    It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                      It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                      the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                      Tony Costa
                      Toronto, Canada

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      > Hi All,
                      >
                      > Regarding this thrice saying,
                      > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                      > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                      >
                      > Has anyone any research on
                      > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                      > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                      >
                      > Why not twice ...or four times?
                      > I feel that there is some
                      > further significance to be gained here.
                      >
                      > Love to All,
                      > John.
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                    • Bill Bullin
                      Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                        Hi John

                        It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                        spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                        note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                        palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                        background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                        bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                        inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                        name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                        most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                        when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                        title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                        could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                        rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                        gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                        carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                        Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                        consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                        appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah


                        > Hi All,
                        >
                        > Regarding this thrice saying,
                        > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                        > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                        >
                        > Has anyone any research on
                        > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                        > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                        >
                        > Why not twice ...or four times?
                        > I feel that there is some
                        > further significance to be gained here.
                        >
                        > Love to All,
                        > John.
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      • Tom Butler
                        Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                          Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                          I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                          *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                          and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                          Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                          I see words of ordination.

                          (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                          that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                          (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                          in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                          I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                          based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                          little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                          Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                          newest members, of the community (the household).

                          (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                          I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                          from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                          Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                          sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                          Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                          newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                          like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                          flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                          role of elder.

                          (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                          a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                          to see.

                          As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                          words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                          Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                          that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                          Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                          Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                          gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                          between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                          "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                          I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                          intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                          authority within the Johannine community as had
                          already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                          "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                          involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                          Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                          I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                          gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                          established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                          acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                          Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                          the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                          Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                          Peter's authority.

                          The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                          Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                          of the Beloved Disciple.

                          Yours in Christ's service,
                          Tom Butler


                          --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                          >
                          > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                          > this in Raymond
                          > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                          > series, but I do recall
                          > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                          > between the two episodes.
                          > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                          > atonement exactly,
                          > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                          > discipleship -- maybe
                          > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                          > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                          > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                          > saying -- "Peter,
                          > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                          > to do from now on..."
                          >
                          > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                          > comment more directly.
                          >
                          > Fred Guyette
                          > Erskine College and Seminary
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > John Bailey wrote:
                          >
                          > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                          > >
                          > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                          > resurrection
                          > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                          > >three times whether he loves him.
                          > >
                          > >This is a form of atonement
                          > >for the the three denials?
                          > >
                          > >Love, John.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                          > Butler
                          > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>Joe,
                          > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                          > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                          > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                          > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                          > >>referring?
                          > >>
                          > >>Tom Butler
                          > >>
                          > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                          > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                          > >>>tomb:
                          > >>>
                          > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                          > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Best regards,
                          > >>>Joe C.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                          > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                          > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                          > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                          > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                          > color=#0000ff>Tom
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
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                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          >
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                          > removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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