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Three times "Do you love me?" in John 21

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  • Fred Guyette
    It s been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond Brown s commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall being struck by what
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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      It's been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond
      Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall
      being struck by what Brown saw as a connection between the two episodes.
      Working from memory, I would not characterize it as atonement exactly,
      but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of discipleship -- maybe
      "restoration" would be closer to Brown's interpretation. Jesus clearly
      is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly saying -- "Peter,
      you're back in the game, and this is what I want you to do from now on..."

      Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can comment more directly.

      Fred Guyette
      Erskine College and Seminary





      John Bailey wrote:

      >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
      >
      >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
      >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
      >three times whether he loves him.
      >
      >This is a form of atonement
      >for the the three denials?
      >
      >Love, John.
      >
      >
      >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
      ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      >>Joe,
      >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
      >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
      >>there and found one paper written by you on
      >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
      >>referring?
      >>
      >>Tom Butler
      >>
      >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
      >>>site to the stone of Jesus
      >>>tomb:
      >>>
      >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
      >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
      >>>
      >>>Best regards,
      >>>Joe C.
      >>>
      >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
      >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
      >>>SUNY Stony Brook
      >>>
      >>>
      >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
      >>
      >>
      >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >
      >
      >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
      >>
      >>
      >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
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      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Joe Gagne
      ... restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the passage carries a great deal more than that as we often find in this gospel. Please
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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        John Bailey wrote:

        >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
        >
        >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
        >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
        >three times whether he loves him.
        >
        >This is a form of atonement
        >for the the three denials?
        >
        >Love, John.
        >
        >
        >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
        ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
        >
        >
        >>Joe,
        >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        >>there and found one paper written by you on
        >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        >>referring?
        >>
        >>Tom Butler
        >>
        >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
        >>
        >>
        >>
        >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        >>>site to the stone of Jesus
        >>>tomb:
        >>>
        >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        >>>
        >>>Best regards,
        >>>Joe C.
        >>>
        >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
        >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
        >>>SUNY Stony Brook
        >>>
        >>>
        >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
        >>
        >>
        >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        >
        >
        >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
        >>
        >>
        >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        >
        >
        >
        >I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt that Jesus was
        >
        >
        restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the
        passage carries a great deal more than that
        as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek text
        Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
        Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third time
        Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
        love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between what
        Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
        that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of love
        that is willing to give his all, and Peter
        replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here is at
        the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
        returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not stayed
        in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
        returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as noted
        in the Synoptics.



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        >



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Jack Kilmon
        I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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          I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
          have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
          are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

          Jack


          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
          Messiah


          > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
          >
          > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
          > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
          > three times whether he loves him.
          >
          > This is a form of atonement
          > for the the three denials?
          >
          > Love, John.
          >
          >
          > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
          > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
          >>
          >> Joe,
          >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          >> there and found one paper written by you on
          >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          >> referring?
          >>
          >> Tom Butler
          >>
          >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
          >>
          >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          >> > site to the stone of Jesus
          >> > tomb:
          >> >
          >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
          >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          >> >
          >> > Best regards,
          >> > Joe C.
          >> >
          >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
          >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
          >> > SUNY Stony Brook
          >>
          >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
          > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
          > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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        • Matson, Mark (Academic)
          Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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            Jack:

            IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
            to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
            editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
            of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
            grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
            makes it thoroughly Johannine:
            use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
            use of agapaw
            use of amen, amen
            historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
            simple paratactic construction for dialogue
            I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

            But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
            to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
            thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
            John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
            But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

            mark


            Mark A. Matson
            Academic Dean
            Milligan College
            http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


            > -----Original Message-----
            > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
            > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
            > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
            > northern Messiah
            >
            >
            > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
            > ch. 21 may
            > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
            > and the 3 denials
            > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
            >
            > Jack
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message -----
            > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
            > northern
            > Messiah
            >
            >
            > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
            > >
            > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            > > three times whether he loves him.
            > >
            > > This is a form of atonement
            > > for the the three denials?
            > >
            > > Love, John.
            > >
            > >
            > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            > <pastor_t@...>
            > > wrote:
            > >>
            > >> Joe,
            > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            > >> there and found one paper written by you on
            > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            > >> referring?
            > >>
            > >> Tom Butler
            > >>
            > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
            > >>
            > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
            > >> > tomb:
            > >> >
            > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            > >> >
            > >> > Best regards,
            > >> > Joe C.
            > >> >
            > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
            > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
            > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
            > >>
            > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
            > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            > >>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            >
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          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
              Messiah


              > Jack:
              >
              > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
              > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
              > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

              Of course.



              > There are so many marks
              > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
              > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
              > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
              > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
              > use of agapaw
              > use of amen, amen
              > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
              > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
              > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
              >
              > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
              > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
              > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
              > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
              > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

              John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
              It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
              occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
              of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
              Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
              of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
              would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
              display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
              manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
              century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
              Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
              Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

              Jack



              >
              > mark
              >
              >
              > Mark A. Matson
              > Academic Dean
              > Milligan College
              > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
              >
              >
              >> -----Original Message-----
              >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
              >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
              >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
              >> northern Messiah
              >>
              >>
              >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
              >> ch. 21 may
              >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
              >> and the 3 denials
              >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
              >>
              >> Jack
              >>
              >>
              >> ----- Original Message -----
              >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
              >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
              >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
              >> northern
              >> Messiah
              >>
              >>
              >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
              >> >
              >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
              >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
              >> > three times whether he loves him.
              >> >
              >> > This is a form of atonement
              >> > for the the three denials?
              >> >
              >> > Love, John.
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
              >> <pastor_t@...>
              >> > wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> Joe,
              >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
              >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              >> >> referring?
              >> >>
              >> >> Tom Butler
              >> >>
              >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
              >> >>
              >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
              >> >> > tomb:
              >> >> >
              >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              >> >> >
              >> >> > Best regards,
              >> >> > Joe C.
              >> >> >
              >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
              >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
              >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
              >> >>
              >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
              >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >> >>
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >> >
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              >>
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              >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
              >>
              >>
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              >>
              >>
              >>
              >
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            • Paul Anderson
              Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

                At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                exist between those two chapters.

                As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                evidence is weak on that score.

                Paul Anderson

                -----Original Message-----
                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                > Jack:
                >
                > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                Of course.



                > There are so many marks
                > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                > use of agapaw
                > use of amen, amen
                > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                >
                > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
                over
                > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
                Galilee.
                It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
                already
                occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
                question
                of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
                restoration
                of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
                editors
                would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
                would
                display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                Jack



                >
                > mark
                >
                >
                > Mark A. Matson
                > Academic Dean
                > Milligan College
                > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                >
                >
                >> -----Original Message-----
                >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
                Kilmon
                >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                >> northern Messiah
                >>
                >>
                >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                >> ch. 21 may
                >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                >> and the 3 denials
                >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                >>
                >> Jack
                >>
                >>
                >> ----- Original Message -----
                >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                >> northern
                >> Messiah
                >>
                >>
                >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                >> >
                >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                >> > three times whether he loves him.
                >> >
                >> > This is a form of atonement
                >> > for the the three denials?
                >> >
                >> > Love, John.
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                >> <pastor_t@...>
                >> > wrote:
                >> >>
                >> >> Joe,
                >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                >> >> referring?
                >> >>
                >> >> Tom Butler
                >> >>
                >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                >> >>
                >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                >> >> > tomb:
                >> >> >
                >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Best regards,
                >> >> > Joe C.
                >> >> >
                >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                >> >>
                >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >> >>
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> >
                >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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              • Bill Bullin
                It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                  It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
                  John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                  christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                  On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
                  reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
                  and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                  Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                  honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
                  Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
                  and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                  Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                  Messiah


                  > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                  >
                  > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                  > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                  > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                  > exist between those two chapters.
                  >
                  > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                  > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                  > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                  > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                  > evidence is weak on that score.
                  >
                  > Paul Anderson
                  >
                • Paul Anderson
                  An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                    An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                    theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                    discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                    from a narratological standpoint.

                    The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                    feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                    where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                    local tradition.

                    Paul Anderson

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                    Messiah

                    It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                    of
                    John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                    christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                    On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                    scene
                    reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                    10:13-16a
                    and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                    Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                    honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                    the
                    Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                    father
                    and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                    Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                    Messiah


                    > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                    >
                    > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                    > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                    > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                    do
                    > exist between those two chapters.
                    >
                    > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                    > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                    > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                    made,
                    > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                    textual
                    > evidence is weak on that score.
                    >
                    > Paul Anderson
                    >




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                  • John Bailey
                    Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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                      Thank you Joe,

                      That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                      The significance of the event
                      is made all the more valuable for me.

                      It takes time to appreciate it,
                      but what a magical forum this is.

                      Love to all you beautiful people,
                      John.


                      > John Bailey wrote:
                      >
                      > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                      > >
                      > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                      > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                      > >three times whether he loves him.
                      > >
                      > >This is a form of atonement
                      > >for the the three denials?
                      > >
                      > >Love, John.
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                      > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >>Joe,
                      > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                      > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                      > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                      > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                      > >>referring?
                      > >>
                      > >>Tom Butler
                      > >>
                      > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>
                      > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                      > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                      > >>>
                      > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Best regards,
                      > >>>Joe C.
                      > >>>
                      > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                      > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                      > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                      > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                      > >>>
                      > >>>
                      > Yours in Christ's service
                      > >
                      > Tom Butler
                      > >
                      > >
                      > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                      that Jesus was
                      > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                      the
                      > passage carries a great deal more than that
                      > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                      text
                      > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                      > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                      time
                      > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                      > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                      what
                      > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                      > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                      love
                      > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                      > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                      is at
                      > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                      > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                      stayed
                      > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                      > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                      noted in the Synoptics.
                    • John Bailey
                      Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                        Hi All,

                        Regarding this thrice saying,
                        in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                        embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                        Has anyone any research on
                        Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                        that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                        Why not twice ...or four times?
                        I feel that there is some
                        further significance to be gained here.

                        Love to All,
                        John.
                      • Tony Costa
                        It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                          It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                          the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                          Tony Costa
                          Toronto, Canada

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                          Messiah


                          > Hi All,
                          >
                          > Regarding this thrice saying,
                          > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                          > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                          >
                          > Has anyone any research on
                          > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                          > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                          >
                          > Why not twice ...or four times?
                          > I feel that there is some
                          > further significance to be gained here.
                          >
                          > Love to All,
                          > John.
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
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                        • Bill Bullin
                          Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                            Hi John

                            It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                            spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                            note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                            palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                            background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                            bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                            inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                            name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                            most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                            when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                            title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                            could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                            rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                            gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                            carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                            Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                            consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                            appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                            Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                            Messiah


                            > Hi All,
                            >
                            > Regarding this thrice saying,
                            > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                            > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                            >
                            > Has anyone any research on
                            > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                            > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                            >
                            > Why not twice ...or four times?
                            > I feel that there is some
                            > further significance to be gained here.
                            >
                            > Love to All,
                            > John.
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
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                          • Tom Butler
                            Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                              Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                              I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                              *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                              and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                              Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                              I see words of ordination.

                              (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                              that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                              (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                              in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                              I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                              based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                              little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                              Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                              newest members, of the community (the household).

                              (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                              I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                              from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                              Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                              sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                              Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                              newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                              like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                              flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                              role of elder.

                              (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                              a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                              to see.

                              As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                              words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                              Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                              that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                              Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                              Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                              gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                              between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                              "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                              I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                              intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                              authority within the Johannine community as had
                              already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                              "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                              involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                              Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                              I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                              gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                              established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                              acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                              Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                              the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                              Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                              Peter's authority.

                              The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                              Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                              of the Beloved Disciple.

                              Yours in Christ's service,
                              Tom Butler


                              --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                              >
                              > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                              > this in Raymond
                              > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                              > series, but I do recall
                              > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                              > between the two episodes.
                              > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                              > atonement exactly,
                              > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                              > discipleship -- maybe
                              > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                              > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                              > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                              > saying -- "Peter,
                              > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                              > to do from now on..."
                              >
                              > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                              > comment more directly.
                              >
                              > Fred Guyette
                              > Erskine College and Seminary
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > John Bailey wrote:
                              >
                              > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                              > >
                              > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                              > resurrection
                              > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                              > >three times whether he loves him.
                              > >
                              > >This is a form of atonement
                              > >for the the three denials?
                              > >
                              > >Love, John.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                              > Butler
                              > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Joe,
                              > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                              > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                              > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                              > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                              > >>referring?
                              > >>
                              > >>Tom Butler
                              > >>
                              > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                              > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                              > >>>tomb:
                              > >>>
                              > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                              > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                              > >>>
                              > >>>Best regards,
                              > >>>Joe C.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                              > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                              > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                              > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                              > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                              > color=#0000ff>Tom
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
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                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              >
                              >
                              > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                              > removed]
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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