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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • Tom Butler
    Joe, I tried to use the link you provided. It didn t work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went there and found one paper written by you on
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
      Joe,
      I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
      work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
      there and found one paper written by you on
      Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
      referring?

      Tom Butler

      --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:

      > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
      > site to the stone of Jesus
      > tomb:
      >
      > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
      > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
      >
      > Best regards,
      > Joe C.
      >
      > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      > Assistant Professor of Medicine
      > University Hospital School of Medicine
      > SUNY Stony Brook

      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
    • John Bailey
      Hi Jo, Tom and All, Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter three times whether he loves him. This
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
        Hi Jo, Tom and All,

        Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
        scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
        three times whether he loves him.

        This is a form of atonement
        for the the three denials?

        Love, John.


        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
        <pastor_t@...> wrote:
        >
        > Joe,
        > I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        > work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        > there and found one paper written by you on
        > Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        > referring?
        >
        > Tom Butler
        >
        > --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
        >
        > > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        > > site to the stone of Jesus
        > > tomb:
        > >
        > > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        > > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        > >
        > > Best regards,
        > > Joe C.
        > >
        > > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        > > Assistant Professor of Medicine
        > > University Hospital School of Medicine
        > > SUNY Stony Brook
        >
        > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
        service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
        Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        >
      • Fred Guyette
        It s been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond Brown s commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall being struck by what
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
          It's been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond
          Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall
          being struck by what Brown saw as a connection between the two episodes.
          Working from memory, I would not characterize it as atonement exactly,
          but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of discipleship -- maybe
          "restoration" would be closer to Brown's interpretation. Jesus clearly
          is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly saying -- "Peter,
          you're back in the game, and this is what I want you to do from now on..."

          Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can comment more directly.

          Fred Guyette
          Erskine College and Seminary





          John Bailey wrote:

          >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
          >
          >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
          >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
          >three times whether he loves him.
          >
          >This is a form of atonement
          >for the the three denials?
          >
          >Love, John.
          >
          >
          >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
          ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          >>Joe,
          >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          >>there and found one paper written by you on
          >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          >>referring?
          >>
          >>Tom Butler
          >>
          >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          >>>site to the stone of Jesus
          >>>tomb:
          >>>
          >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
          >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          >>>
          >>>Best regards,
          >>>Joe C.
          >>>
          >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
          >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
          >>>SUNY Stony Brook
          >>>
          >>>
          >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
          >>
          >>
          >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >
          >
          >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
          >>
          >>
          >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Joe Gagne
          ... restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the passage carries a great deal more than that as we often find in this gospel. Please
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
            John Bailey wrote:

            >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
            >
            >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            >three times whether he loves him.
            >
            >This is a form of atonement
            >for the the three denials?
            >
            >Love, John.
            >
            >
            >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>Joe,
            >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            >>there and found one paper written by you on
            >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            >>referring?
            >>
            >>Tom Butler
            >>
            >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            >>>site to the stone of Jesus
            >>>tomb:
            >>>
            >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            >>>
            >>>Best regards,
            >>>Joe C.
            >>>
            >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
            >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
            >>>SUNY Stony Brook
            >>>
            >>>
            >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
            >>
            >>
            >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >
            >
            >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            >>
            >>
            >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >
            >
            >
            >I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt that Jesus was
            >
            >
            restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the
            passage carries a great deal more than that
            as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek text
            Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
            Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third time
            Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
            love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between what
            Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
            that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of love
            that is willing to give his all, and Peter
            replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here is at
            the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
            returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not stayed
            in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
            returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as noted
            in the Synoptics.



            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Jack Kilmon
            I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
              I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
              have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
              are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

              Jack


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
              Messiah


              > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
              >
              > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
              > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
              > three times whether he loves him.
              >
              > This is a form of atonement
              > for the the three denials?
              >
              > Love, John.
              >
              >
              > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
              > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
              >>
              >> Joe,
              >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              >> there and found one paper written by you on
              >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              >> referring?
              >>
              >> Tom Butler
              >>
              >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
              >>
              >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              >> > site to the stone of Jesus
              >> > tomb:
              >> >
              >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              >> >
              >> > Best regards,
              >> > Joe C.
              >> >
              >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
              >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
              >> > SUNY Stony Brook
              >>
              >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
              > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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            • Matson, Mark (Academic)
              Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                Jack:

                IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
                of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                use of agapaw
                use of amen, amen
                historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

                But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                mark


                Mark A. Matson
                Academic Dean
                Milligan College
                http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                > northern Messiah
                >
                >
                > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                > ch. 21 may
                > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                > and the 3 denials
                > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                >
                > Jack
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                > northern
                > Messiah
                >
                >
                > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                > >
                > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                > > three times whether he loves him.
                > >
                > > This is a form of atonement
                > > for the the three denials?
                > >
                > > Love, John.
                > >
                > >
                > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                > <pastor_t@...>
                > > wrote:
                > >>
                > >> Joe,
                > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                > >> there and found one paper written by you on
                > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                > >> referring?
                > >>
                > >> Tom Butler
                > >>
                > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                > >>
                > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                > >> > tomb:
                > >> >
                > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                > >> >
                > >> > Best regards,
                > >> > Joe C.
                > >> >
                > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                > >>
                > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                > >>
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                > >
                > >
                >
                >
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              • Jack Kilmon
                ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                  Messiah


                  > Jack:
                  >
                  > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                  > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                  > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                  Of course.



                  > There are so many marks
                  > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                  > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                  > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                  > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                  > use of agapaw
                  > use of amen, amen
                  > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                  > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                  > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                  >
                  > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                  > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                  > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                  > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                  > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                  John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
                  It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
                  occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
                  of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                  Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
                  of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
                  would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
                  display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                  manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                  century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                  Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                  Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                  Jack



                  >
                  > mark
                  >
                  >
                  > Mark A. Matson
                  > Academic Dean
                  > Milligan College
                  > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                  >
                  >
                  >> -----Original Message-----
                  >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                  >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                  >> northern Messiah
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                  >> ch. 21 may
                  >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                  >> and the 3 denials
                  >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                  >>
                  >> Jack
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> ----- Original Message -----
                  >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                  >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                  >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                  >> northern
                  >> Messiah
                  >>
                  >>
                  >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  >> >
                  >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                  >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  >> > three times whether he loves him.
                  >> >
                  >> > This is a form of atonement
                  >> > for the the three denials?
                  >> >
                  >> > Love, John.
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                  >> <pastor_t@...>
                  >> > wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Joe,
                  >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                  >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  >> >> referring?
                  >> >>
                  >> >> Tom Butler
                  >> >>
                  >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                  >> >>
                  >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                  >> >> > tomb:
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                  >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Best regards,
                  >> >> > Joe C.
                  >> >> >
                  >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                  >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                  >> >>
                  >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >> >>
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
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                  >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >> >
                  >>
                  >>
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                  >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                  >>
                  >>
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                  >>
                  >>
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                • Paul Anderson
                  Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                    Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

                    At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                    relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                    original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                    exist between those two chapters.

                    As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                    was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                    the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                    though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                    evidence is weak on that score.

                    Paul Anderson

                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
                    To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                    Messiah


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                    Messiah


                    > Jack:
                    >
                    > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                    > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                    > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                    Of course.



                    > There are so many marks
                    > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                    > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                    > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                    > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                    > use of agapaw
                    > use of amen, amen
                    > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                    > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                    > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                    >
                    > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
                    over
                    > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                    > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                    > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                    > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                    John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
                    Galilee.
                    It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
                    already
                    occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
                    question
                    of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                    Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
                    restoration
                    of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
                    editors
                    would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
                    would
                    display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                    manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                    century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                    Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                    Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                    Jack



                    >
                    > mark
                    >
                    >
                    > Mark A. Matson
                    > Academic Dean
                    > Milligan College
                    > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                    >
                    >
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
                    Kilmon
                    >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                    >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    >> northern Messiah
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                    >> ch. 21 may
                    >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                    >> and the 3 denials
                    >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                    >>
                    >> Jack
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                    >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                    >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    >> northern
                    >> Messiah
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                    >> >
                    >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                    >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                    >> > three times whether he loves him.
                    >> >
                    >> > This is a form of atonement
                    >> > for the the three denials?
                    >> >
                    >> > Love, John.
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                    >> <pastor_t@...>
                    >> > wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Joe,
                    >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                    >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                    >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                    >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                    >> >> referring?
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Tom Butler
                    >> >>
                    >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                    >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                    >> >> > tomb:
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                    >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > Best regards,
                    >> >> > Joe C.
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                    >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                    >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                    >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                    >> >>
                    >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                    >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                    >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >> >>
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
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                    >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
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                    >
                    >
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                    >



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                  • Bill Bullin
                    It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
                      It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
                      John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                      christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                      On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
                      reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
                      and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                      Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                      honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
                      Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
                      and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                      Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                      >
                      > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                      > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                      > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                      > exist between those two chapters.
                      >
                      > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                      > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                      > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                      > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                      > evidence is weak on that score.
                      >
                      > Paul Anderson
                      >
                    • Paul Anderson
                      An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
                        An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                        theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                        discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                        from a narratological standpoint.

                        The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                        feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                        where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                        local tradition.

                        Paul Anderson

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah

                        It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                        of
                        John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                        christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                        On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                        scene
                        reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                        10:13-16a
                        and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                        Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                        honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                        the
                        Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                        father
                        and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah


                        > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                        >
                        > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                        > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                        > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                        do
                        > exist between those two chapters.
                        >
                        > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                        > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                        > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                        made,
                        > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                        textual
                        > evidence is weak on that score.
                        >
                        > Paul Anderson
                        >




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                      • John Bailey
                        Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
                          Thank you Joe,

                          That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                          The significance of the event
                          is made all the more valuable for me.

                          It takes time to appreciate it,
                          but what a magical forum this is.

                          Love to all you beautiful people,
                          John.


                          > John Bailey wrote:
                          >
                          > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                          > >
                          > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                          > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                          > >three times whether he loves him.
                          > >
                          > >This is a form of atonement
                          > >for the the three denials?
                          > >
                          > >Love, John.
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                          > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >>Joe,
                          > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                          > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                          > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                          > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                          > >>referring?
                          > >>
                          > >>Tom Butler
                          > >>
                          > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>
                          > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                          > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                          > >>>
                          > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Best regards,
                          > >>>Joe C.
                          > >>>
                          > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                          > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                          > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                          > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                          > >>>
                          > >>>
                          > Yours in Christ's service
                          > >
                          > Tom Butler
                          > >
                          > >
                          > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                          that Jesus was
                          > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                          the
                          > passage carries a great deal more than that
                          > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                          text
                          > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                          > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                          time
                          > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                          > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                          what
                          > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                          > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                          love
                          > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                          > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                          is at
                          > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                          > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                          stayed
                          > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                          > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                          noted in the Synoptics.
                        • John Bailey
                          Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
                            Hi All,

                            Regarding this thrice saying,
                            in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                            embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                            Has anyone any research on
                            Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                            that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                            Why not twice ...or four times?
                            I feel that there is some
                            further significance to be gained here.

                            Love to All,
                            John.
                          • Tony Costa
                            It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
                              It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                              the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                              Tony Costa
                              Toronto, Canada

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                              Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                              Messiah


                              > Hi All,
                              >
                              > Regarding this thrice saying,
                              > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                              > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                              >
                              > Has anyone any research on
                              > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                              > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                              >
                              > Why not twice ...or four times?
                              > I feel that there is some
                              > further significance to be gained here.
                              >
                              > Love to All,
                              > John.
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
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                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • Bill Bullin
                              Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                                Hi John

                                It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                                spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                                palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                                background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                                bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                                inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                                name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                                most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                                when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                                title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                                could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                                rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                                gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                                carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                                Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                                consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                                appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                                Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                Messiah


                                > Hi All,
                                >
                                > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                >
                                > Has anyone any research on
                                > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                >
                                > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                > I feel that there is some
                                > further significance to be gained here.
                                >
                                > Love to All,
                                > John.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                              • Tom Butler
                                Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                                  Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                                  I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                                  *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                                  and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                                  Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                                  I see words of ordination.

                                  (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                                  that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                                  (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                                  in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                                  I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                                  based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                                  little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                                  Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                                  newest members, of the community (the household).

                                  (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                                  I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                                  from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                                  Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                                  sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                                  Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                                  newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                                  like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                                  flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                                  role of elder.

                                  (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                                  a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                                  to see.

                                  As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                                  words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                                  Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                                  that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                                  Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                                  Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                                  gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                                  between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                                  "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                                  I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                                  intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                                  authority within the Johannine community as had
                                  already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                                  "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                                  involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                                  Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                                  I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                                  gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                                  established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                                  acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                                  Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                                  the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                                  Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                                  Peter's authority.

                                  The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                                  Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                                  of the Beloved Disciple.

                                  Yours in Christ's service,
                                  Tom Butler


                                  --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                                  >
                                  > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                                  > this in Raymond
                                  > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                                  > series, but I do recall
                                  > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                                  > between the two episodes.
                                  > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                                  > atonement exactly,
                                  > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                                  > discipleship -- maybe
                                  > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                                  > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                                  > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                                  > saying -- "Peter,
                                  > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                                  > to do from now on..."
                                  >
                                  > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                                  > comment more directly.
                                  >
                                  > Fred Guyette
                                  > Erskine College and Seminary
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > John Bailey wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                                  > >
                                  > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                                  > resurrection
                                  > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                                  > >three times whether he loves him.
                                  > >
                                  > >This is a form of atonement
                                  > >for the the three denials?
                                  > >
                                  > >Love, John.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                                  > Butler
                                  > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Joe,
                                  > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                                  > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                                  > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                                  > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                                  > >>referring?
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Tom Butler
                                  > >>
                                  > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                                  > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                                  > >>>tomb:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                                  > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>Best regards,
                                  > >>>Joe C.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                                  > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                                  > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                                  > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                                  > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                                  > color=#0000ff>Tom
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
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                                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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