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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • SemioticSymphony@aol.com
    In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho mer@yahoo.com writes: But in any case the only connection between the denial and
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
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      In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho
      mer@... writes:

      But in
      any case the only connection between the denial and the naming was my
      observation that Peter's shame in having denied Jesus would have been
      more poignant knowing that he had been named Peter as the "stone" that
      would endure as Jesus's faithful witness.


      Kevin:

      In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you site to the stone of Jesus
      tomb:

      _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
      (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)

      Best regards,
      Joe C.

      Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
      Assistant Professor of Medicine
      University Hospital School of Medicine
      SUNY Stony Brook



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Tom Butler
      Joe, I tried to use the link you provided. It didn t work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went there and found one paper written by you on
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
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        Joe,
        I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
        work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
        there and found one paper written by you on
        Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
        referring?

        Tom Butler

        --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:

        > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
        > site to the stone of Jesus
        > tomb:
        >
        > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
        >
        > Best regards,
        > Joe C.
        >
        > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        > Assistant Professor of Medicine
        > University Hospital School of Medicine
        > SUNY Stony Brook

        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      • John Bailey
        Hi Jo, Tom and All, Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter three times whether he loves him. This
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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          Hi Jo, Tom and All,

          Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
          scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
          three times whether he loves him.

          This is a form of atonement
          for the the three denials?

          Love, John.


          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
          <pastor_t@...> wrote:
          >
          > Joe,
          > I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          > work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          > there and found one paper written by you on
          > Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          > referring?
          >
          > Tom Butler
          >
          > --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
          >
          > > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          > > site to the stone of Jesus
          > > tomb:
          > >
          > > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
          > > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          > >
          > > Best regards,
          > > Joe C.
          > >
          > > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          > > Assistant Professor of Medicine
          > > University Hospital School of Medicine
          > > SUNY Stony Brook
          >
          > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
          service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
          Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >
        • Fred Guyette
          It s been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond Brown s commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall being struck by what
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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            It's been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond
            Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall
            being struck by what Brown saw as a connection between the two episodes.
            Working from memory, I would not characterize it as atonement exactly,
            but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of discipleship -- maybe
            "restoration" would be closer to Brown's interpretation. Jesus clearly
            is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly saying -- "Peter,
            you're back in the game, and this is what I want you to do from now on..."

            Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can comment more directly.

            Fred Guyette
            Erskine College and Seminary





            John Bailey wrote:

            >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
            >
            >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            >three times whether he loves him.
            >
            >This is a form of atonement
            >for the the three denials?
            >
            >Love, John.
            >
            >
            >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            >>Joe,
            >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            >>there and found one paper written by you on
            >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            >>referring?
            >>
            >>Tom Butler
            >>
            >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
            >>
            >>
            >>
            >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            >>>site to the stone of Jesus
            >>>tomb:
            >>>
            >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            >>>
            >>>Best regards,
            >>>Joe C.
            >>>
            >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
            >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
            >>>SUNY Stony Brook
            >>>
            >>>
            >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
            >>
            >>
            >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >
            >
            >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            >>
            >>
            >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Joe Gagne
            ... restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the passage carries a great deal more than that as we often find in this gospel. Please
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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              John Bailey wrote:

              >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
              >
              >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
              >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
              >three times whether he loves him.
              >
              >This is a form of atonement
              >for the the three denials?
              >
              >Love, John.
              >
              >
              >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
              ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Joe,
              >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              >>there and found one paper written by you on
              >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              >>referring?
              >>
              >>Tom Butler
              >>
              >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              >>>site to the stone of Jesus
              >>>tomb:
              >>>
              >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              >>>
              >>>Best regards,
              >>>Joe C.
              >>>
              >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
              >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
              >>>SUNY Stony Brook
              >>>
              >>>
              >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              >>
              >>
              >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >
              >
              >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
              >>
              >>
              >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >
              >
              >
              >I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt that Jesus was
              >
              >
              restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the
              passage carries a great deal more than that
              as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek text
              Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
              Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third time
              Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
              love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between what
              Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
              that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of love
              that is willing to give his all, and Peter
              replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here is at
              the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
              returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not stayed
              in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
              returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as noted
              in the Synoptics.



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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Jack Kilmon
              I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
                have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
                are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

                Jack


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                Messiah


                > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                >
                > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                > three times whether he loves him.
                >
                > This is a form of atonement
                > for the the three denials?
                >
                > Love, John.
                >
                >
                > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                >>
                >> Joe,
                >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                >> there and found one paper written by you on
                >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                >> referring?
                >>
                >> Tom Butler
                >>
                >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                >>
                >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                >> > tomb:
                >> >
                >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                >> >
                >> > Best regards,
                >> > Joe C.
                >> >
                >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                >>
                >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >>
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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              • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                  Jack:

                  IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                  to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                  editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
                  of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                  grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                  makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                  use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                  use of agapaw
                  use of amen, amen
                  historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                  simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                  I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

                  But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                  to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                  thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                  John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                  But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                  mark


                  Mark A. Matson
                  Academic Dean
                  Milligan College
                  http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


                  > -----Original Message-----
                  > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                  > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                  > northern Messiah
                  >
                  >
                  > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                  > ch. 21 may
                  > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                  > and the 3 denials
                  > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                  >
                  > Jack
                  >
                  >
                  > ----- Original Message -----
                  > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                  > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                  > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                  > northern
                  > Messiah
                  >
                  >
                  > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  > >
                  > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                  > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  > > three times whether he loves him.
                  > >
                  > > This is a form of atonement
                  > > for the the three denials?
                  > >
                  > > Love, John.
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                  > <pastor_t@...>
                  > > wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> Joe,
                  > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  > >> there and found one paper written by you on
                  > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  > >> referring?
                  > >>
                  > >> Tom Butler
                  > >>
                  > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                  > >>
                  > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                  > >> > tomb:
                  > >> >
                  > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                  > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Best regards,
                  > >> > Joe C.
                  > >> >
                  > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                  > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                  > >>
                  > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  > >>
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                • Jack Kilmon
                  ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                    Messiah


                    > Jack:
                    >
                    > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                    > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                    > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                    Of course.



                    > There are so many marks
                    > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                    > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                    > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                    > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                    > use of agapaw
                    > use of amen, amen
                    > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                    > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                    > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                    >
                    > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                    > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                    > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                    > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                    > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                    John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
                    It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
                    occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
                    of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                    Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
                    of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
                    would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
                    display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                    manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                    century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                    Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                    Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                    Jack



                    >
                    > mark
                    >
                    >
                    > Mark A. Matson
                    > Academic Dean
                    > Milligan College
                    > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                    >
                    >
                    >> -----Original Message-----
                    >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                    >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                    >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    >> northern Messiah
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                    >> ch. 21 may
                    >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                    >> and the 3 denials
                    >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                    >>
                    >> Jack
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> ----- Original Message -----
                    >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                    >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                    >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    >> northern
                    >> Messiah
                    >>
                    >>
                    >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                    >> >
                    >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                    >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                    >> > three times whether he loves him.
                    >> >
                    >> > This is a form of atonement
                    >> > for the the three denials?
                    >> >
                    >> > Love, John.
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                    >> <pastor_t@...>
                    >> > wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Joe,
                    >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                    >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                    >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                    >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                    >> >> referring?
                    >> >>
                    >> >> Tom Butler
                    >> >>
                    >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                    >> >>
                    >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                    >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                    >> >> > tomb:
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                    >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > Best regards,
                    >> >> > Joe C.
                    >> >> >
                    >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                    >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                    >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                    >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                    >> >>
                    >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                    >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                    >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >> >>
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> >
                    >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                  • Paul Anderson
                    Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                      Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

                      At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                      relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                      original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                      exist between those two chapters.

                      As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                      was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                      the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                      though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                      evidence is weak on that score.

                      Paul Anderson

                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      > Jack:
                      >
                      > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                      > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                      > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                      Of course.



                      > There are so many marks
                      > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                      > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                      > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                      > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                      > use of agapaw
                      > use of amen, amen
                      > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                      > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                      > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                      >
                      > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
                      over
                      > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                      > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                      > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                      > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                      John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
                      Galilee.
                      It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
                      already
                      occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
                      question
                      of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                      Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
                      restoration
                      of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
                      editors
                      would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
                      would
                      display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                      manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                      century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                      Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                      Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                      Jack



                      >
                      > mark
                      >
                      >
                      > Mark A. Matson
                      > Academic Dean
                      > Milligan College
                      > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                      >
                      >
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
                      Kilmon
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                      >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                      >> northern Messiah
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                      >> ch. 21 may
                      >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                      >> and the 3 denials
                      >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                      >>
                      >> Jack
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                      >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                      >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                      >> northern
                      >> Messiah
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                      >> >
                      >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                      >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                      >> > three times whether he loves him.
                      >> >
                      >> > This is a form of atonement
                      >> > for the the three denials?
                      >> >
                      >> > Love, John.
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                      >> <pastor_t@...>
                      >> > wrote:
                      >> >>
                      >> >> Joe,
                      >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                      >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                      >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                      >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                      >> >> referring?
                      >> >>
                      >> >> Tom Butler
                      >> >>
                      >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                      >> >>
                      >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                      >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                      >> >> > tomb:
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                      >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > Best regards,
                      >> >> > Joe C.
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                      >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                      >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                      >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                      >> >>
                      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                      >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                      >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >> >>
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
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                      >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
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                    • Bill Bullin
                      It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                        It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
                        John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                        christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                        On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
                        reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
                        and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                        Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                        honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
                        Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
                        and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah


                        > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                        >
                        > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                        > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                        > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                        > exist between those two chapters.
                        >
                        > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                        > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                        > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                        > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                        > evidence is weak on that score.
                        >
                        > Paul Anderson
                        >
                      • Paul Anderson
                        An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                          An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                          theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                          discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                          from a narratological standpoint.

                          The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                          feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                          where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                          local tradition.

                          Paul Anderson

                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                          Messiah

                          It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                          of
                          John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                          christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                          On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                          scene
                          reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                          10:13-16a
                          and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                          Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                          honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                          the
                          Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                          father
                          and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                          Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                          Messiah


                          > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                          >
                          > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                          > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                          > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                          do
                          > exist between those two chapters.
                          >
                          > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                          > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                          > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                          made,
                          > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                          textual
                          > evidence is weak on that score.
                          >
                          > Paul Anderson
                          >




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                        • John Bailey
                          Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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                            Thank you Joe,

                            That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                            The significance of the event
                            is made all the more valuable for me.

                            It takes time to appreciate it,
                            but what a magical forum this is.

                            Love to all you beautiful people,
                            John.


                            > John Bailey wrote:
                            >
                            > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                            > >
                            > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                            > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                            > >three times whether he loves him.
                            > >
                            > >This is a form of atonement
                            > >for the the three denials?
                            > >
                            > >Love, John.
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                            > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                            > >
                            > >
                            > >>Joe,
                            > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                            > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                            > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                            > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                            > >>referring?
                            > >>
                            > >>Tom Butler
                            > >>
                            > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>
                            > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                            > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                            > >>>
                            > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                            > >>>
                            > >>>Best regards,
                            > >>>Joe C.
                            > >>>
                            > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                            > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                            > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                            > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                            > >>>
                            > >>>
                            > Yours in Christ's service
                            > >
                            > Tom Butler
                            > >
                            > >
                            > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                            that Jesus was
                            > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                            the
                            > passage carries a great deal more than that
                            > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                            text
                            > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                            > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                            time
                            > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                            > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                            what
                            > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                            > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                            love
                            > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                            > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                            is at
                            > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                            > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                            stayed
                            > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                            > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                            noted in the Synoptics.
                          • John Bailey
                            Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                              Hi All,

                              Regarding this thrice saying,
                              in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                              embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                              Has anyone any research on
                              Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                              that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                              Why not twice ...or four times?
                              I feel that there is some
                              further significance to be gained here.

                              Love to All,
                              John.
                            • Tony Costa
                              It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                                It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                                the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                                Tony Costa
                                Toronto, Canada

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                Messiah


                                > Hi All,
                                >
                                > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                >
                                > Has anyone any research on
                                > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                >
                                > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                > I feel that there is some
                                > further significance to be gained here.
                                >
                                > Love to All,
                                > John.
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                >
                                >
                              • Bill Bullin
                                Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                                  Hi John

                                  It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                                  spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                  note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                                  palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                                  background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                                  bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                                  inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                                  name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                                  most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                                  when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                                  title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                                  could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                                  rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                                  gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                                  carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                                  Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                                  consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                                  appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                                  Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                  Messiah


                                  > Hi All,
                                  >
                                  > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                  > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                  > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone any research on
                                  > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                  > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                  >
                                  > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                  > I feel that there is some
                                  > further significance to be gained here.
                                  >
                                  > Love to All,
                                  > John.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                • Tom Butler
                                  Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                                    Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                                    I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                                    *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                                    and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                                    Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                                    I see words of ordination.

                                    (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                                    that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                                    (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                                    in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                                    I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                                    based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                                    little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                                    Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                                    newest members, of the community (the household).

                                    (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                                    I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                                    from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                                    Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                                    sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                                    Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                                    newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                                    like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                                    flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                                    role of elder.

                                    (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                                    a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                                    to see.

                                    As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                                    words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                                    Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                                    that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                                    Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                                    Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                                    gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                                    between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                                    "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                                    I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                                    intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                                    authority within the Johannine community as had
                                    already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                                    "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                                    involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                                    Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                                    I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                                    gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                                    established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                                    acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                                    Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                                    the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                                    Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                                    Peter's authority.

                                    The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                                    Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                                    of the Beloved Disciple.

                                    Yours in Christ's service,
                                    Tom Butler


                                    --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                                    >
                                    > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                                    > this in Raymond
                                    > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                                    > series, but I do recall
                                    > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                                    > between the two episodes.
                                    > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                                    > atonement exactly,
                                    > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                                    > discipleship -- maybe
                                    > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                                    > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                                    > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                                    > saying -- "Peter,
                                    > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                                    > to do from now on..."
                                    >
                                    > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                                    > comment more directly.
                                    >
                                    > Fred Guyette
                                    > Erskine College and Seminary
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > John Bailey wrote:
                                    >
                                    > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                                    > >
                                    > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                                    > resurrection
                                    > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                                    > >three times whether he loves him.
                                    > >
                                    > >This is a form of atonement
                                    > >for the the three denials?
                                    > >
                                    > >Love, John.
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                                    > Butler
                                    > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >>Joe,
                                    > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                                    > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                                    > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                                    > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                                    > >>referring?
                                    > >>
                                    > >>Tom Butler
                                    > >>
                                    > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                                    > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                                    > >>>tomb:
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                                    > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>Best regards,
                                    > >>>Joe C.
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                                    > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                                    > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                                    > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                                    > >>>
                                    > >>>
                                    > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                                    > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                                    > color=#0000ff>Tom
                                    > >>
                                    > >>
                                    > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > >
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                                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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