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Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

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  • kalvachomer
    ... someone ... of ... Ron, I don t think we re communicating here. I can understand the author of Mark having Jesus rebuke Peter in 8:33 to make his point,
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
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      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Ron Price <ron.price@...>
      wrote:

      > Mark concocted the story of Peter's denial in order to denigrate
      someone
      > whose Christology was deemed inadequate (Mk 8:29-33), and the gospels
      of
      > Matthew, Luke and John copied the story from Mark.

      > Mark's gospel was probably composed after the death of Peter, thus the
      > denial story has nothing whatever to do with the naming of Peter.

      Ron, I don't think we're communicating here. I can understand the
      author of Mark having Jesus rebuke Peter in 8:33 to make his point,
      whether or not the incident happened. I don't see what further purpose
      would have been served by Mark's fabricating the denial story. But in
      any case the only connection between the denial and the naming was my
      observation that Peter's shame in having denied Jesus would have been
      more poignant knowing that he had been named Peter as the "stone" that
      would endure as Jesus's faithful witness. But my explanation for the
      naming of Peter would not be affected even if the denial story were
      Mark's fabrication. I don't see any explanation other than mine for
      Peter's name, except the "upon this rock" of Matthew, and I explained
      why I thought that was unsatisfactory.

      Kevin Snapp
      Chicago

      I didn't suggest that the denial story
    • SemioticSymphony@aol.com
      In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho mer@yahoo.com writes: But in any case the only connection between the denial and
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
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        In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho
        mer@... writes:

        But in
        any case the only connection between the denial and the naming was my
        observation that Peter's shame in having denied Jesus would have been
        more poignant knowing that he had been named Peter as the "stone" that
        would endure as Jesus's faithful witness.


        Kevin:

        In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you site to the stone of Jesus
        tomb:

        _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
        (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)

        Best regards,
        Joe C.

        Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
        Assistant Professor of Medicine
        University Hospital School of Medicine
        SUNY Stony Brook



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Tom Butler
        Joe, I tried to use the link you provided. It didn t work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went there and found one paper written by you on
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
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          Joe,
          I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
          work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
          there and found one paper written by you on
          Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
          referring?

          Tom Butler

          --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:

          > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
          > site to the stone of Jesus
          > tomb:
          >
          > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
          > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
          >
          > Best regards,
          > Joe C.
          >
          > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
          > Assistant Professor of Medicine
          > University Hospital School of Medicine
          > SUNY Stony Brook

          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        • John Bailey
          Hi Jo, Tom and All, Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter three times whether he loves him. This
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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            Hi Jo, Tom and All,

            Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
            scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
            three times whether he loves him.

            This is a form of atonement
            for the the three denials?

            Love, John.


            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
            <pastor_t@...> wrote:
            >
            > Joe,
            > I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
            > work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
            > there and found one paper written by you on
            > Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
            > referring?
            >
            > Tom Butler
            >
            > --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
            >
            > > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
            > > site to the stone of Jesus
            > > tomb:
            > >
            > > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            > > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
            > >
            > > Best regards,
            > > Joe C.
            > >
            > > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            > > Assistant Professor of Medicine
            > > University Hospital School of Medicine
            > > SUNY Stony Brook
            >
            > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
            service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            >
          • Fred Guyette
            It s been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond Brown s commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall being struck by what
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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              It's been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond
              Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall
              being struck by what Brown saw as a connection between the two episodes.
              Working from memory, I would not characterize it as atonement exactly,
              but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of discipleship -- maybe
              "restoration" would be closer to Brown's interpretation. Jesus clearly
              is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly saying -- "Peter,
              you're back in the game, and this is what I want you to do from now on..."

              Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can comment more directly.

              Fred Guyette
              Erskine College and Seminary





              John Bailey wrote:

              >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
              >
              >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
              >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
              >three times whether he loves him.
              >
              >This is a form of atonement
              >for the the three denials?
              >
              >Love, John.
              >
              >
              >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
              ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              >>Joe,
              >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              >>there and found one paper written by you on
              >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              >>referring?
              >>
              >>Tom Butler
              >>
              >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
              >>
              >>
              >>
              >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              >>>site to the stone of Jesus
              >>>tomb:
              >>>
              >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              >>>
              >>>Best regards,
              >>>Joe C.
              >>>
              >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
              >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
              >>>SUNY Stony Brook
              >>>
              >>>
              >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
              >>
              >>
              >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >
              >
              >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
              >>
              >>
              >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Joe Gagne
              ... restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the passage carries a great deal more than that as we often find in this gospel. Please
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                John Bailey wrote:

                >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                >
                >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                >three times whether he loves him.
                >
                >This is a form of atonement
                >for the the three denials?
                >
                >Love, John.
                >
                >
                >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                >>Joe,
                >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                >>there and found one paper written by you on
                >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                >>referring?
                >>
                >>Tom Butler
                >>
                >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                >>
                >>
                >>
                >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                >>>tomb:
                >>>
                >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                >>>
                >>>Best regards,
                >>>Joe C.
                >>>
                >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                >>>
                >>>
                >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                >>
                >>
                >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >
                >
                >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                >>
                >>
                >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >
                >
                >
                >I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt that Jesus was
                >
                >
                restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the
                passage carries a great deal more than that
                as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek text
                Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third time
                Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between what
                Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of love
                that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here is at
                the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not stayed
                in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as noted
                in the Synoptics.



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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Jack Kilmon
                I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                  I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
                  have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
                  are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

                  Jack


                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                  Messiah


                  > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  >
                  > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                  > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  > three times whether he loves him.
                  >
                  > This is a form of atonement
                  > for the the three denials?
                  >
                  > Love, John.
                  >
                  >
                  > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                  > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                  >>
                  >> Joe,
                  >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  >> there and found one paper written by you on
                  >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  >> referring?
                  >>
                  >> Tom Butler
                  >>
                  >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                  >>
                  >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                  >> > tomb:
                  >> >
                  >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                  >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  >> >
                  >> > Best regards,
                  >> > Joe C.
                  >> >
                  >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                  >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                  >>
                  >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
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                • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                  Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                    Jack:

                    IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                    to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                    editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
                    of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                    grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                    makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                    use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                    use of agapaw
                    use of amen, amen
                    historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                    simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                    I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

                    But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                    to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                    thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                    John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                    But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                    mark


                    Mark A. Matson
                    Academic Dean
                    Milligan College
                    http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


                    > -----Original Message-----
                    > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                    > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                    > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    > northern Messiah
                    >
                    >
                    > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                    > ch. 21 may
                    > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                    > and the 3 denials
                    > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                    >
                    > Jack
                    >
                    >
                    > ----- Original Message -----
                    > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                    > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                    > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                    > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                    > northern
                    > Messiah
                    >
                    >
                    > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                    > >
                    > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                    > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                    > > three times whether he loves him.
                    > >
                    > > This is a form of atonement
                    > > for the the three denials?
                    > >
                    > > Love, John.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                    > <pastor_t@...>
                    > > wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> Joe,
                    > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                    > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                    > >> there and found one paper written by you on
                    > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                    > >> referring?
                    > >>
                    > >> Tom Butler
                    > >>
                    > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                    > >>
                    > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                    > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                    > >> > tomb:
                    > >> >
                    > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                    > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Best regards,
                    > >> > Joe C.
                    > >> >
                    > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                    > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                    > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                    > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                    > >>
                    > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                    > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                    > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    > >>
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
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                  • Jack Kilmon
                    ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      > Jack:
                      >
                      > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                      > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                      > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                      Of course.



                      > There are so many marks
                      > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                      > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                      > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                      > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                      > use of agapaw
                      > use of amen, amen
                      > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                      > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                      > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                      >
                      > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                      > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                      > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                      > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                      > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                      John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
                      It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
                      occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
                      of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                      Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
                      of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
                      would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
                      display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                      manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                      century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                      Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                      Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                      Jack



                      >
                      > mark
                      >
                      >
                      > Mark A. Matson
                      > Academic Dean
                      > Milligan College
                      > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                      >
                      >
                      >> -----Original Message-----
                      >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                      >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                      >> northern Messiah
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                      >> ch. 21 may
                      >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                      >> and the 3 denials
                      >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                      >>
                      >> Jack
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> ----- Original Message -----
                      >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                      >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                      >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                      >> northern
                      >> Messiah
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                      >> >
                      >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                      >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                      >> > three times whether he loves him.
                      >> >
                      >> > This is a form of atonement
                      >> > for the the three denials?
                      >> >
                      >> > Love, John.
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                      >> <pastor_t@...>
                      >> > wrote:
                      >> >>
                      >> >> Joe,
                      >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                      >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                      >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                      >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                      >> >> referring?
                      >> >>
                      >> >> Tom Butler
                      >> >>
                      >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                      >> >>
                      >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                      >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                      >> >> > tomb:
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                      >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > Best regards,
                      >> >> > Joe C.
                      >> >> >
                      >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                      >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                      >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                      >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                      >> >>
                      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                      >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                      >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >> >>
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> >
                      >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >>
                      >>
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                    • Paul Anderson
                      Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
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                        Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

                        At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                        relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                        original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                        exist between those two chapters.

                        As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                        was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                        the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                        though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                        evidence is weak on that score.

                        Paul Anderson

                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                        Messiah


                        > Jack:
                        >
                        > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                        > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                        > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                        Of course.



                        > There are so many marks
                        > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                        > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                        > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                        > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                        > use of agapaw
                        > use of amen, amen
                        > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                        > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                        > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                        >
                        > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
                        over
                        > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                        > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                        > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                        > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                        John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
                        Galilee.
                        It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
                        already
                        occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
                        question
                        of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                        Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
                        restoration
                        of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
                        editors
                        would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
                        would
                        display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                        manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                        century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                        Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                        Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                        Jack



                        >
                        > mark
                        >
                        >
                        > Mark A. Matson
                        > Academic Dean
                        > Milligan College
                        > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                        >
                        >
                        >> -----Original Message-----
                        >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
                        Kilmon
                        >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                        >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                        >> northern Messiah
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                        >> ch. 21 may
                        >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                        >> and the 3 denials
                        >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                        >>
                        >> Jack
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> ----- Original Message -----
                        >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                        >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                        >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                        >> northern
                        >> Messiah
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                        >> >
                        >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                        >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                        >> > three times whether he loves him.
                        >> >
                        >> > This is a form of atonement
                        >> > for the the three denials?
                        >> >
                        >> > Love, John.
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                        >> <pastor_t@...>
                        >> > wrote:
                        >> >>
                        >> >> Joe,
                        >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                        >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                        >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                        >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                        >> >> referring?
                        >> >>
                        >> >> Tom Butler
                        >> >>
                        >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                        >> >>
                        >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                        >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                        >> >> > tomb:
                        >> >> >
                        >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                        >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                        >> >> >
                        >> >> > Best regards,
                        >> >> > Joe C.
                        >> >> >
                        >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                        >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                        >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                        >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                        >> >>
                        >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                        >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                        >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        >> >>
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >> >
                        >>
                        >>
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                      • Bill Bullin
                        It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                          It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
                          John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                          christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                          On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
                          reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
                          and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                          Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                          honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
                          Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
                          and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                          Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                          Messiah


                          > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                          >
                          > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                          > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                          > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                          > exist between those two chapters.
                          >
                          > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                          > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                          > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                          > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                          > evidence is weak on that score.
                          >
                          > Paul Anderson
                          >
                        • Paul Anderson
                          An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
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                            An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                            theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                            discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                            from a narratological standpoint.

                            The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                            feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                            where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                            local tradition.

                            Paul Anderson

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                            Messiah

                            It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                            of
                            John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                            christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                            On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                            scene
                            reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                            10:13-16a
                            and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                            Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                            honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                            the
                            Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                            father
                            and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                            Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                            Messiah


                            > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                            >
                            > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                            > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                            > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                            do
                            > exist between those two chapters.
                            >
                            > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                            > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                            > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                            made,
                            > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                            textual
                            > evidence is weak on that score.
                            >
                            > Paul Anderson
                            >




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                          • John Bailey
                            Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
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                              Thank you Joe,

                              That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                              The significance of the event
                              is made all the more valuable for me.

                              It takes time to appreciate it,
                              but what a magical forum this is.

                              Love to all you beautiful people,
                              John.


                              > John Bailey wrote:
                              >
                              > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                              > >
                              > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                              > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                              > >three times whether he loves him.
                              > >
                              > >This is a form of atonement
                              > >for the the three denials?
                              > >
                              > >Love, John.
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                              > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >>Joe,
                              > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                              > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                              > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                              > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                              > >>referring?
                              > >>
                              > >>Tom Butler
                              > >>
                              > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                              > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                              > >>>
                              > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                              > >>>
                              > >>>Best regards,
                              > >>>Joe C.
                              > >>>
                              > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                              > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                              > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                              > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                              > >>>
                              > >>>
                              > Yours in Christ's service
                              > >
                              > Tom Butler
                              > >
                              > >
                              > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                              that Jesus was
                              > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                              the
                              > passage carries a great deal more than that
                              > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                              text
                              > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                              > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                              time
                              > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                              > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                              what
                              > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                              > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                              love
                              > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                              > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                              is at
                              > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                              > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                              stayed
                              > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                              > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                              noted in the Synoptics.
                            • John Bailey
                              Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                                Hi All,

                                Regarding this thrice saying,
                                in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                                Has anyone any research on
                                Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                                Why not twice ...or four times?
                                I feel that there is some
                                further significance to be gained here.

                                Love to All,
                                John.
                              • Tony Costa
                                It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
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                                  It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                                  the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                                  Tony Costa
                                  Toronto, Canada

                                  ----- Original Message -----
                                  From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                                  To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                  Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                                  Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                  Messiah


                                  > Hi All,
                                  >
                                  > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                  > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                  > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                  >
                                  > Has anyone any research on
                                  > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                  > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                  >
                                  > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                  > I feel that there is some
                                  > further significance to be gained here.
                                  >
                                  > Love to All,
                                  > John.
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  >
                                • Bill Bullin
                                  Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                                    Hi John

                                    It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                                    spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                    note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                                    palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                                    background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                                    bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                                    inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                                    name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                                    most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                                    when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                                    title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                                    could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                                    rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                                    gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                                    carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                                    Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                                    consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                                    appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                                    Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                    Messiah


                                    > Hi All,
                                    >
                                    > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                    > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                    > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                    >
                                    > Has anyone any research on
                                    > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                    > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                    >
                                    > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                    > I feel that there is some
                                    > further significance to be gained here.
                                    >
                                    > Love to All,
                                    > John.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
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                                    >
                                  • Tom Butler
                                    Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
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                                      Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                                      I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                                      *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                                      and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                                      Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                                      I see words of ordination.

                                      (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                                      that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                                      (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                                      in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                                      I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                                      based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                                      little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                                      Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                                      newest members, of the community (the household).

                                      (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                                      I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                                      from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                                      Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                                      sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                                      Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                                      newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                                      like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                                      flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                                      role of elder.

                                      (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                                      a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                                      to see.

                                      As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                                      words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                                      Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                                      that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                                      Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                                      Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                                      gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                                      between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                                      "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                                      I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                                      intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                                      authority within the Johannine community as had
                                      already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                                      "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                                      involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                                      Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                                      I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                                      gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                                      established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                                      acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                                      Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                                      the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                                      Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                                      Peter's authority.

                                      The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                                      Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                                      of the Beloved Disciple.

                                      Yours in Christ's service,
                                      Tom Butler


                                      --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                                      >
                                      > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                                      > this in Raymond
                                      > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                                      > series, but I do recall
                                      > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                                      > between the two episodes.
                                      > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                                      > atonement exactly,
                                      > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                                      > discipleship -- maybe
                                      > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                                      > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                                      > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                                      > saying -- "Peter,
                                      > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                                      > to do from now on..."
                                      >
                                      > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                                      > comment more directly.
                                      >
                                      > Fred Guyette
                                      > Erskine College and Seminary
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > John Bailey wrote:
                                      >
                                      > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                                      > >
                                      > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                                      > resurrection
                                      > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                                      > >three times whether he loves him.
                                      > >
                                      > >This is a form of atonement
                                      > >for the the three denials?
                                      > >
                                      > >Love, John.
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                                      > Butler
                                      > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >>Joe,
                                      > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                                      > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                                      > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                                      > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                                      > >>referring?
                                      > >>
                                      > >>Tom Butler
                                      > >>
                                      > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                                      > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                                      > >>>tomb:
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                                      > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>Best regards,
                                      > >>>Joe C.
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                                      > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                                      > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                                      > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                                      > >>>
                                      > >>>
                                      > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                                      > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                                      > color=#0000ff>Tom
                                      > >>
                                      > >>
                                      > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
                                      > >
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                                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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