Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern Messiah

Expand Messages
  • kalvachomer
    Hello, friends, Taking a fresh look at John, I became curious why Jesus named the Apostle Simon Peter (Petros), which John also gives as the Aramaic Kayfa
    Message 1 of 19 , Apr 10, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello, friends,

      Taking a fresh look at John, I became curious why Jesus named the
      Apostle Simon "Peter" (Petros), which John also gives as the Aramaic
      "Kayfa" ("Cephas" in most English translations). All four Gospels
      have the story that Peter denied knowing Jesus, after insisting that he
      wouldn't, so Peter is singled out as definitely not "rock-like." So why
      was he called Peter?

      The verse from Matthew, "On this rock I will build my church," (Matt.
      16:18) isn't a sufficient explanation for at least two reasons. This
      saying appears only in Matthew. If Jesus said it, it wasn't his
      explanation for his initially calling Simon "Peter." Peter was, of
      course, well-known; if this was a tradition explaining his name, the
      other Gospels would have included it. Also, the word "church,"
      "ekklesia," appears only in Matthew, indicating that the saying is an
      anachronism and is Matthew's wordplay, not Jesus's.

      Did Jesus mean "rock" or "stone"? In English, "rock" and "stone" have
      similar meanings but different connotations -- try "Stone of Gibraltar,"
      or "Stone of Ages." The Greek "petra," a feminine noun, means "rock" in
      the majestic, natural sense, and is used in the Septuagint to translate
      the Hebrew "tsur," or less commonly, "sela." The masculine "petros"
      means a piece of broken rock, and is not used in the Septuagint.
      However, Simon couldn't be given a feminine name, so perhaps "Petros"
      carried the positive connotations of "petra." The Greek word for "stone"
      is "lithos," which translates the Hebrew "'even."

      The problem is that the Greek and Aramaic names don't match. I am not
      an Aramaic scholar, but from my references "kayfa" means a lump or
      rounded piece of stone, and would not carry the majestic, firm hard,
      connotations of "rock," "tsur," or "petra." "Kayfa" could be used of a
      precious stone set in jewelry, so it need not be a negative epithet, but
      would be better translated by "lithos" than "petros."

      Given the depiction of Simon's character, my best guess is that Jesus
      had in mind stone and not rock. But he took "petros" rather than
      "lithos" as the Greek equivalent, perhaps because it was more flattering
      to Simon, perhaps because it resembled an Aramaic adjective, "pattira,"
      meaning "simple, unmixed, unleavened," that aptly describes Peter -- and
      perhaps because Jesus wished to half-hide referances to scriptural
      passages speaking of a "stone," not a "rock."

      Because these passages are not where one might be expected to look, let
      me explain why I looked there.

      More than the other Gospels, the Gospel of John recognizes the tension
      between Gallilee and Samaria in the north, part of the former Kingdom of
      Israel, and Judah/Judea in the south. The Apostles were from Gallilee,
      not Judea, and while we would call them "Jews," they would not have
      called themselves "Ioudaioi." Although Gallilean Jews accepted the
      Temple in Jerusalem as the central place of worship, they would have had
      little love for Jerusalem's priestly authorities and administrators with
      their tendency to corruption, or the Pharisees with their disdain for
      the unlettered and their inclination to find new stringencies in the
      Law.

      Understandably, the idea of a renewed, united Israel under a descendant
      of King David of Judah was less popular in the north than the south, and
      in the north there were legends and traditions that the warrior-king to
      reunite Israel would, like the original conqueror, Joshua, be a
      descendant of Joseph, i.e., from the principal northern tribes of
      Ephraim and Manasseh, not from Judah.

      As we all know, "Jesus," "Iesous," is the Greek spelling of Joshua.
      Jesus was believed to be the son of Joseph and to come from Nazareth in
      Gallilee, leading me to look for connections to the OT Joseph and
      Joshua. I found two that are relevant to Peter's name.

      There is an obscure passage in Jacob's blessing of Joseph that refers to
      "the shepherd, the Stone of Israel," Gen. 49:24. (Although translations
      have "rock," the Hebrew word is " 'even," "stone.") This is surely in
      play in Jn. 21:15-17, where Jesus tells Peter to care for Jesus's
      "sheep," placing Peter in the role of shepherd. The author of John
      elsewhere calls Peter "Simon Peter," but here he is "Simon, son of
      John." The author wants the attentive reader to notice what is missing,
      i.e., "Peter," and draw the conclusion that Simon the shepherd is also
      the "Stone of Israel."

      We can't know whether Jesus had this verse in mind, or whether the
      author of John picked up on it later. But Peter's renaming in itself
      has to be based on another passage, this time from the Book of Joshua.

      At the end of his life, Joshua assembles the people and holds a covenant
      ceremony. The people pledge to serve the God of Israel alone, and
      Joshua sets up a stone as witness to the covenant (Jos. 24:26-27):

      26. And Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God; and he
      took a large stone and set it up there under the oak that was by the
      sanctuary of the LORD.

      27. Joshua said to all the people, "Behold, this stone shall be for a
      witness against us, for it has heard all the words of the LORD which He
      spoke to us; thus it shall be for a witness against you, so that you do
      not deny your God.

      So when Jesus/Joshua meets Simon, whose name (Shim`on), as Gen. 29:33
      tells us, comes from the Hebrew word "to hear," Jesus tells him, in
      effect, that he will be the "stone" to hear and witness the words of God
      Jesus would speak!

      Peter is not "stone-stupid," but the Gospels do portray him as
      literal-minded and unoriginal, qualities appropriate for a reliable
      witness. Lacking the wild strength of a "rock," he is a faithful,
      domesticated "stone" that will preserve what is metaphorically inscribed
      on him. And this verse makes Peter's denial of Jesus all the more
      poignant, since "the stone," of course, was to be the witness against
      the denial of others.

      I find this very persuasive, and the best explanation for Peter's name
      in view of (a) Peter's hardly "rocklike" character, (b) "kayfa"
      meaning more "a stone" than "a rock," and (c) the Gospels' pointedly
      noting Peter's denial of Jesus.

      Jesus's implicit citation of this passage implies that he identified
      with the northern "Messiah son of Joseph," and this at least suggests
      that he was not of Davidic ancestry -- although he could be both "son of
      Joseph" and "son of David" if the maternal line were considered as well
      as the paternal. But I don't see how the conclusion can be avoided that
      the author of John, at least, believed Jesus was descended from the
      tribe of Joseph.

      Kevin Snapp

      Chicago
    • Ron Price
      On 10/4/06 9:08 pm, kalvachomer wrote: ... Kevin, Mark concocted the story of Peter s denial in order to denigrate someone whose
      Message 2 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        On 10/4/06 9:08 pm, "kalvachomer" <kalvachomer@...> wrote:

        Kevin Snapp wrote:

        > Taking a fresh look at John, I became curious why Jesus named the
        > Apostle Simon "Peter" (Petros), which John also gives as the Aramaic
        > "Kayfa" ("Cephas" in most English translations). All four Gospels
        > have the story that Peter denied knowing Jesus, after insisting that he
        > wouldn't, so Peter is singled out as definitely not "rock-like."

        Kevin,

        Mark concocted the story of Peter's denial in order to denigrate someone
        whose Christology was deemed inadequate (Mk 8:29-33), and the gospels of
        Matthew, Luke and John copied the story from Mark.

        > So why was he called Peter?

        Mark's gospel was probably composed after the death of Peter, thus the
        denial story has nothing whatever to do with the naming of Peter.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
      • kalvachomer
        ... someone ... of ... Ron, I don t think we re communicating here. I can understand the author of Mark having Jesus rebuke Peter in 8:33 to make his point,
        Message 3 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Ron Price <ron.price@...>
          wrote:

          > Mark concocted the story of Peter's denial in order to denigrate
          someone
          > whose Christology was deemed inadequate (Mk 8:29-33), and the gospels
          of
          > Matthew, Luke and John copied the story from Mark.

          > Mark's gospel was probably composed after the death of Peter, thus the
          > denial story has nothing whatever to do with the naming of Peter.

          Ron, I don't think we're communicating here. I can understand the
          author of Mark having Jesus rebuke Peter in 8:33 to make his point,
          whether or not the incident happened. I don't see what further purpose
          would have been served by Mark's fabricating the denial story. But in
          any case the only connection between the denial and the naming was my
          observation that Peter's shame in having denied Jesus would have been
          more poignant knowing that he had been named Peter as the "stone" that
          would endure as Jesus's faithful witness. But my explanation for the
          naming of Peter would not be affected even if the denial story were
          Mark's fabrication. I don't see any explanation other than mine for
          Peter's name, except the "upon this rock" of Matthew, and I explained
          why I thought that was unsatisfactory.

          Kevin Snapp
          Chicago

          I didn't suggest that the denial story
        • SemioticSymphony@aol.com
          In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho mer@yahoo.com writes: But in any case the only connection between the denial and
          Message 4 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            In a message dated 4/11/2006 10:04:11 A.M. Eastern Daylight Time, kalvacho
            mer@... writes:

            But in
            any case the only connection between the denial and the naming was my
            observation that Peter's shame in having denied Jesus would have been
            more poignant knowing that he had been named Peter as the "stone" that
            would endure as Jesus's faithful witness.


            Kevin:

            In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you site to the stone of Jesus
            tomb:

            _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
            (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)

            Best regards,
            Joe C.

            Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
            Assistant Professor of Medicine
            University Hospital School of Medicine
            SUNY Stony Brook



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Tom Butler
            Joe, I tried to use the link you provided. It didn t work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went there and found one paper written by you on
            Message 5 of 19 , Apr 11, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Joe,
              I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
              work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
              there and found one paper written by you on
              Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
              referring?

              Tom Butler

              --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:

              > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
              > site to the stone of Jesus
              > tomb:
              >
              > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
              > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
              >
              > Best regards,
              > Joe C.
              >
              > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
              > Assistant Professor of Medicine
              > University Hospital School of Medicine
              > SUNY Stony Brook

              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            • John Bailey
              Hi Jo, Tom and All, Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter three times whether he loves him. This
              Message 6 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Hi Jo, Tom and All,

                Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                three times whether he loves him.

                This is a form of atonement
                for the the three denials?

                Love, John.


                --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                >
                > Joe,
                > I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                > work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                > there and found one paper written by you on
                > Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                > referring?
                >
                > Tom Butler
                >
                > --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                >
                > > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                > > site to the stone of Jesus
                > > tomb:
                > >
                > > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                > > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                > >
                > > Best regards,
                > > Joe C.
                > >
                > > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                > > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                > > University Hospital School of Medicine
                > > SUNY Stony Brook
                >
                > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                >
              • Fred Guyette
                It s been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond Brown s commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall being struck by what
                Message 7 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  It's been more than twenty years since I read about this in Raymond
                  Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible series, but I do recall
                  being struck by what Brown saw as a connection between the two episodes.
                  Working from memory, I would not characterize it as atonement exactly,
                  but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of discipleship -- maybe
                  "restoration" would be closer to Brown's interpretation. Jesus clearly
                  is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly saying -- "Peter,
                  you're back in the game, and this is what I want you to do from now on..."

                  Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can comment more directly.

                  Fred Guyette
                  Erskine College and Seminary





                  John Bailey wrote:

                  >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                  >
                  >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                  >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                  >three times whether he loves him.
                  >
                  >This is a form of atonement
                  >for the the three denials?
                  >
                  >Love, John.
                  >
                  >
                  >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                  ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                  >
                  >
                  >>Joe,
                  >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                  >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                  >>there and found one paper written by you on
                  >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                  >>referring?
                  >>
                  >>Tom Butler
                  >>
                  >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>
                  >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                  >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                  >>>tomb:
                  >>>
                  >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                  >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                  >>>
                  >>>Best regards,
                  >>>Joe C.
                  >>>
                  >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                  >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                  >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                  >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                  >>>
                  >>>
                  >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  >>
                  >>
                  >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >
                  >
                  >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  >>
                  >>
                  >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                  >Yahoo! Groups Links
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Joe Gagne
                  ... restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the passage carries a great deal more than that as we often find in this gospel. Please
                  Message 8 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    John Bailey wrote:

                    >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                    >
                    >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                    >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                    >three times whether he loves him.
                    >
                    >This is a form of atonement
                    >for the the three denials?
                    >
                    >Love, John.
                    >
                    >
                    >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                    ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                    >
                    >
                    >>Joe,
                    >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                    >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                    >>there and found one paper written by you on
                    >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                    >>referring?
                    >>
                    >>Tom Butler
                    >>
                    >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>
                    >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                    >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                    >>>tomb:
                    >>>
                    >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                    >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                    >>>
                    >>>Best regards,
                    >>>Joe C.
                    >>>
                    >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                    >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                    >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                    >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                    >>>
                    >>>
                    >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                    >>
                    >>
                    >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >
                    >
                    >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                    >>
                    >>
                    >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt that Jesus was
                    >
                    >
                    restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that the
                    passage carries a great deal more than that
                    as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek text
                    Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                    Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third time
                    Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                    love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between what
                    Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                    that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of love
                    that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                    replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here is at
                    the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                    returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not stayed
                    in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                    returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as noted
                    in the Synoptics.



                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                    >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                    >Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >



                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jack Kilmon
                    I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials are a
                    Message 9 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John ch. 21 may
                      have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G and the 3 denials
                      are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.

                      Jack


                      ----- Original Message -----
                      From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                      Messiah


                      > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                      >
                      > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                      > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                      > three times whether he loves him.
                      >
                      > This is a form of atonement
                      > for the the three denials?
                      >
                      > Love, John.
                      >
                      >
                      > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                      > <pastor_t@...> wrote:
                      >>
                      >> Joe,
                      >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                      >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                      >> there and found one paper written by you on
                      >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                      >> referring?
                      >>
                      >> Tom Butler
                      >>
                      >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                      >>
                      >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                      >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                      >> > tomb:
                      >> >
                      >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                      >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                      >> >
                      >> > Best regards,
                      >> > Joe C.
                      >> >
                      >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                      >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                      >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                      >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                      >>
                      >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                      > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                      > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • Matson, Mark (Academic)
                      Jack: IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine editor to fit
                      Message 10 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Jack:

                        IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                        to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                        editor to fit the stylistic features of John. There are so many marks
                        of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                        grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                        makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                        use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                        use of agapaw
                        use of amen, amen
                        historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                        simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                        I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.

                        But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                        to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                        thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                        John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                        But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                        mark


                        Mark A. Matson
                        Academic Dean
                        Milligan College
                        http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm


                        > -----Original Message-----
                        > From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                        > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                        > northern Messiah
                        >
                        >
                        > I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                        > ch. 21 may
                        > have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                        > and the 3 denials
                        > are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                        >
                        > Jack
                        >
                        >
                        > ----- Original Message -----
                        > From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                        > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                        > northern
                        > Messiah
                        >
                        >
                        > > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                        > >
                        > > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                        > > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                        > > three times whether he loves him.
                        > >
                        > > This is a form of atonement
                        > > for the the three denials?
                        > >
                        > > Love, John.
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                        > <pastor_t@...>
                        > > wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> Joe,
                        > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                        > >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                        > >> there and found one paper written by you on
                        > >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                        > >> referring?
                        > >>
                        > >> Tom Butler
                        > >>
                        > >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                        > >>
                        > >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                        > >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                        > >> > tomb:
                        > >> >
                        > >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                        > >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Best regards,
                        > >> > Joe C.
                        > >> >
                        > >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                        > >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                        > >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                        > >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                        > >>
                        > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                        > > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        > >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                        > > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        > >>
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_litera> ture/messages
                        >
                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >
                      • Jack Kilmon
                        ... From: Matson, Mark (Academic) To: Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM Subject: RE:
                        Message 11 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                          Messiah


                          > Jack:
                          >
                          > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                          > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                          > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                          Of course.



                          > There are so many marks
                          > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                          > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                          > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                          > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                          > use of agapaw
                          > use of amen, amen
                          > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                          > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                          > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                          >
                          > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred over
                          > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                          > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                          > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                          > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                          John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to Galilee.
                          It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had already
                          occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold question
                          of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                          Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a restoration
                          of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine editors
                          would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21 would
                          display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                          manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                          century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                          Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                          Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                          Jack



                          >
                          > mark
                          >
                          >
                          > Mark A. Matson
                          > Academic Dean
                          > Milligan College
                          > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                          >
                          >
                          >> -----Original Message-----
                          >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                          >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                          >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                          >> northern Messiah
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                          >> ch. 21 may
                          >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                          >> and the 3 denials
                          >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                          >>
                          >> Jack
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> ----- Original Message -----
                          >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                          >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                          >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                          >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                          >> northern
                          >> Messiah
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                          >> >
                          >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                          >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                          >> > three times whether he loves him.
                          >> >
                          >> > This is a form of atonement
                          >> > for the the three denials?
                          >> >
                          >> > Love, John.
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                          >> <pastor_t@...>
                          >> > wrote:
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Joe,
                          >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                          >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                          >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                          >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                          >> >> referring?
                          >> >>
                          >> >> Tom Butler
                          >> >>
                          >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                          >> >>
                          >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                          >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                          >> >> > tomb:
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                          >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > Best regards,
                          >> >> > Joe C.
                          >> >> >
                          >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                          >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                          >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                          >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                          >> >>
                          >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                          >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                          >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          >> >>
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                          >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                          >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >> >
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_litera> ture/messages
                          >>
                          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >>
                          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >>
                          >
                          >
                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Paul Anderson
                          Colleagues, interesting issues, here! At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its
                          Message 12 of 19 , Apr 18, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Colleagues, interesting issues, here!

                            At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                            relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                            original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                            exist between those two chapters.

                            As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                            was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                            the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                            though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                            evidence is weak on that score.

                            Paul Anderson

                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:36 PM
                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                            Messiah


                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: "Matson, Mark (Academic)" <MAMatson@...>
                            To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:22 PM
                            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                            Messiah


                            > Jack:
                            >
                            > IF there were really a longer ending to Mark that has been transferred
                            > to the end of John, it has been completely reworked by a Johannine
                            > editor to fit the stylistic features of John.

                            Of course.



                            > There are so many marks
                            > of Johannine style in this section it is amazing. While many of the
                            > grammatical features are possible in Mark, the stacking up of so many
                            > makes it thoroughly Johannine:
                            > use of Simon Peter (and declining Simon)
                            > use of agapaw
                            > use of amen, amen
                            > historical present use of legw, especially legei autwi
                            > simple paratactic construction for dialogue
                            > I suspect a more thorough analysis would show more.
                            >
                            > But this can't be a simple matter of an ending of Mark transferred
                            over
                            > to John 21; it would have to have been completely reworked by someone
                            > thoroughly steeped in John's language (or reworked by the evangelist
                            > John himself; and yes I know ch 21 is supposed to be a late edition.
                            > But it does seem stylistically Johannine.)

                            John 21 is continuous with Mark 16 with the disciples returning to
                            Galilee.
                            It is discontinous with John 20 where a resurrection appearance had
                            already
                            occurred. John 21 is an account of a FIRST appearance. The 3-fold
                            question
                            of 21:15-17 is a rehabilitation of Peter's 3-fold denial in Mark. The
                            Gospel of Mark anticipates a 1st appearance in the Galilee and a
                            restoration
                            of Peter...both found in John 21. The linguistic style of Johannine
                            editors
                            would be expected after the rewriting of the text of Mark 16. John 21
                            would
                            display BOTH Johannine and Synoptic styles, which it does. The first
                            manuscript evidence of Ch. 21 is in P66 from the beginning of the 3rd
                            century, yet Tertullian, not long before, used a Gospel of John without
                            Chapter 21. There is an excellent treatment of this issue in "The
                            Unfinished Gospel" by Evan Powell, 1994 Symposium Books.

                            Jack



                            >
                            > mark
                            >
                            >
                            > Mark A. Matson
                            > Academic Dean
                            > Milligan College
                            > http://www.milligan.edu/administrative/personal.htm
                            >
                            >
                            >> -----Original Message-----
                            >> From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            >> [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack
                            Kilmon
                            >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 4:27 PM
                            >> To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                            >> northern Messiah
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> I believe that is possible. I also do not rule out that John
                            >> ch. 21 may
                            >> have been the original ending of Mark later appended to 4G
                            >> and the 3 denials
                            >> are a typical Markan "bracket" with the 3 affirmations.
                            >>
                            >> Jack
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> ----- Original Message -----
                            >> From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                            >> To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                            >> Sent: Tuesday, April 18, 2006 8:36 AM
                            >> Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the
                            >> northern
                            >> Messiah
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> > Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                            >> >
                            >> > Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                            >> > scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                            >> > three times whether he loves him.
                            >> >
                            >> > This is a form of atonement
                            >> > for the the three denials?
                            >> >
                            >> > Love, John.
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                            >> <pastor_t@...>
                            >> > wrote:
                            >> >>
                            >> >> Joe,
                            >> >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                            >> >> work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                            >> >> there and found one paper written by you on
                            >> >> Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                            >> >> referring?
                            >> >>
                            >> >> Tom Butler
                            >> >>
                            >> >> --- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                            >> >>
                            >> >> > In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                            >> >> > site to the stone of Jesus
                            >> >> > tomb:
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > _http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                            >> >> > (http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > Best regards,
                            >> >> > Joe C.
                            >> >> >
                            >> >> > Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                            >> >> > Assistant Professor of Medicine
                            >> >> > University Hospital School of Medicine
                            >> >> > SUNY Stony Brook
                            >> >>
                            >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                            >> > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                            >> >> <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                            >> > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                            >> >>
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                            johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            >> > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                            >> > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                            >> > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >> >
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_litera> ture/messages
                            >>
                            >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >>
                            >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                            > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >



                            SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                            MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                            Yahoo! Groups Links
                          • Bill Bullin
                            It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                            Message 13 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
                            • 0 Attachment
                              It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style of
                              John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                              christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                              On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper scene
                              reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom 10:13-16a
                              and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                              Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                              honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was the
                              Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his father
                              and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                              Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                              Messiah


                              > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                              >
                              > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                              > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                              > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections do
                              > exist between those two chapters.
                              >
                              > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                              > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                              > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was made,
                              > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and textual
                              > evidence is weak on that score.
                              >
                              > Paul Anderson
                              >
                            • Paul Anderson
                              An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer discussions elsewhere), it
                              Message 14 of 19 , Apr 19, 2006
                              • 0 Attachment
                                An interesting thing about John 6:16-21 is that as well as being more
                                theophanic than the Markan epiphanic presentation (see longer
                                discussions elsewhere), it also seems more primitive and undeveloped
                                from a narratological standpoint.

                                The boats coming from Tiberias (vss. 22-24) also seems to locate the
                                feeding on the other side of the lake, which is interesting--that's
                                where the feeding of the 4,000 came to be associated in the developing
                                local tradition.

                                Paul Anderson

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Bill Bullin
                                Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 3:17 AM
                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                Messiah

                                It would be interesting to here views on the characteristics and style
                                of
                                John 6: 21. It is noteworthy that the previous verse contains one of the
                                christlogically loaded 'I am' statements of the Fourth Gospel.

                                On the theme of the Northern Messiah, the Fourth Gospel's last supper
                                scene
                                reflects many points of contact with the life of Joseph, Wisdom
                                10:13-16a
                                and the Aramaic Targum on Joseph's Blessing. As a taster, vs 25 of the
                                Targum concludes: "May all these blessings come and fashion a crown of
                                honour on the head of Joseph, on the forehead of the pious man who was
                                the
                                Lord and Prince in the country of Egypt, but who was careful of his
                                father
                                and the glory of his bretheren", cf John 17.

                                Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).

                                ----- Original Message -----
                                From: Paul Anderson <panderso@...>
                                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                Sent: Wednesday, April 19, 2006 1:28 AM
                                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                Messiah


                                > Colleagues, interesting issues, here!
                                >
                                > At the SNTS meetings in Halle last summer a paper was presented on the
                                > relation between John 21 and 6, arguing for its integrity within the
                                > original composition of John. Indeed, many parallels and connections
                                do
                                > exist between those two chapters.
                                >
                                > As the discussion developed, though, given the likelihood that John 6
                                > was itself added to an earlier edition, that factor actually bolstered
                                > the view that John 21 was also a later addition. No inference was
                                made,
                                > though, that it was a non-Johannine addition--the stylistic and
                                textual
                                > evidence is weak on that score.
                                >
                                > Paul Anderson
                                >




                                SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • John Bailey
                                Thank you Joe, That subtle nuance is wonderful. The significance of the event is made all the more valuable for me. It takes time to appreciate it, but what a
                                Message 15 of 19 , Apr 20, 2006
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Thank you Joe,

                                  That subtle nuance is wonderful.
                                  The significance of the event
                                  is made all the more valuable for me.

                                  It takes time to appreciate it,
                                  but what a magical forum this is.

                                  Love to all you beautiful people,
                                  John.


                                  > John Bailey wrote:
                                  >
                                  > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                                  > >
                                  > >Might be worth calling to mind the post resurrection
                                  > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                                  > >three times whether he loves him.
                                  > >
                                  > >This is a form of atonement
                                  > >for the the three denials?
                                  > >
                                  > >Love, John.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler
                                  > ><pastor_t@> wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >>Joe,
                                  > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                                  > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                                  > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                                  > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                                  > >>referring?
                                  > >>
                                  > >>Tom Butler
                                  > >>
                                  > >>--- SemioticSymphony@ wrote:
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>
                                  > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                                  > >>>site to the stone of Jesus tomb:
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>Best regards,
                                  > >>>Joe C.
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                                  > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                                  > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                                  > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                                  > >>>
                                  > >>>
                                  > Yours in Christ's service
                                  > >
                                  > Tom Butler
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > I to have read Father Brown's passage, and I concur that he felt
                                  that Jesus was
                                  > restoring Peter after the three denials. I believe, however, that
                                  the
                                  > passage carries a great deal more than that
                                  > as we often find in this gospel. Please note that in the Greek
                                  text
                                  > Jesus asks Peter Do you love (agape) me and
                                  > Peter replies both times that he loves (philein) Jesus. The third
                                  time
                                  > Jesus states You mean that you have a (philein)
                                  > love. This upsets Peter when he realizes the difference between
                                  what
                                  > Jesus said and how he responded. I believe
                                  > that Jesus was asking Peter whether the love came from the type of
                                  love
                                  > that is willing to give his all, and Peter
                                  > replies that his love is more of an affection love. The scene here
                                  is at
                                  > the Sea of Tiberias, and the apostles had
                                  > returned to their first devotion, that of fishing. They had not
                                  stayed
                                  > in Jerusalem as they had been told, but had
                                  > returned to their old homes. They will then return to Jerusalem as
                                  noted in the Synoptics.
                                • John Bailey
                                  Hi All, Regarding this thrice saying, in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to embrace the idea of its efficacy. Has anyone any research on Jewish or
                                  Message 16 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Hi All,

                                    Regarding this thrice saying,
                                    in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                    embrace the idea of its efficacy.

                                    Has anyone any research on
                                    Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                    that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?

                                    Why not twice ...or four times?
                                    I feel that there is some
                                    further significance to be gained here.

                                    Love to All,
                                    John.
                                  • Tony Costa
                                    It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to the trisagion , holy, holy, holy (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8). Tony Costa Toronto, Canada
                                    Message 17 of 19 , Apr 23, 2006
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      It seems that three is the number of direct emphasis. The same applies to
                                      the 'trisagion', "holy, holy, holy" (Isa.6:3; Rev.4:8).

                                      Tony Costa
                                      Toronto, Canada

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "John Bailey" <lovingandfree@...>
                                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 4:01 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                      Messiah


                                      > Hi All,
                                      >
                                      > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                      > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                      > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                      >
                                      > Has anyone any research on
                                      > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                      > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                      >
                                      > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                      > I feel that there is some
                                      > further significance to be gained here.
                                      >
                                      > Love to All,
                                      > John.
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Bill Bullin
                                      Hi John It is interesting that you use the term spell . There is a wealth of Jewish spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                      Message 18 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Hi John

                                        It is interesting that you use the term 'spell'. There is a wealth of Jewish
                                        spells to be found in the ancient Greek magic papyri. Several features to
                                        note are the use of 'power names', the use of special numbers and the use of
                                        palindromes and reflective numbers. In my view this forms part of the
                                        background to Christian formula. Spells could be places in arm and forehead
                                        bindings, could be written, the ink washed off and the water drunk or
                                        inscribed on bread to be consumed. In my view the invocation of the divine
                                        name, YHWH was considered the most powerful (and therfore potentially the
                                        most blasphemous and dangerous invocation of all). I therefore believe that
                                        when Jesus was given 'the name above all names', it was not merely a name or
                                        title but the highest protective / healing and 'magical' power name that
                                        could be invoked for protective and cleansing Baptism, for healing and for
                                        rebuke. The link between Names and numbers in Jewish magic relates to the
                                        gematria and the numbering of each of the Hebrew letters. The name, YHWH
                                        carries the number 26 as evidenced in Psalm 136 with its 26 refrains. The
                                        Hebrew word Wisdom carries the numbers 37 and 73 and the Prayer of Azariah
                                        consequently carries 37 refrains because Wisdom or the Divine Presence
                                        appeared with the three men in the furnace.

                                        Bill Bullin (Private Student, England).


                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        From: John Bailey <lovingandfree@...>
                                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                        Sent: Sunday, April 23, 2006 9:01 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Peter, the stone of Jesus/Joshua, the northern
                                        Messiah


                                        > Hi All,
                                        >
                                        > Regarding this thrice saying,
                                        > in 2 Corinthians 12:5-9 Paul too appears to
                                        > embrace the idea of its efficacy.
                                        >
                                        > Has anyone any research on
                                        > Jewish or Christian literature from this time,
                                        > that illustrates in what manner such a spell is uttered?
                                        >
                                        > Why not twice ...or four times?
                                        > I feel that there is some
                                        > further significance to be gained here.
                                        >
                                        > Love to All,
                                        > John.
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                        > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                        > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                        http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                        > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                        >
                                      • Tom Butler
                                        Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al... I m enjoying the exchange regarding the three times *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus and
                                        Message 19 of 19 , Apr 24, 2006
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          Fred, Joe, Jack, Mark, Paul, Bill, John et al...

                                          I'm enjoying the exchange regarding the three times
                                          *Do you love me* inquirey and response between Jesus
                                          and Peter in John 21: 15-17.

                                          Rather than seeing magic in the three-fold exchange,
                                          I see words of ordination.

                                          (1) *boske ta arnia mou* (Feed my lambs) suggests
                                          that Jesus is recognizing Peter as a shepherd of His
                                          (Jesus') flock. It recalls the symbolism Jesus uses
                                          in Jn. 10 in reference to Himself and *His own.*

                                          I see this as an ordination to the role of deacon,
                                          based upon the task required of Peter: feeding the
                                          little lambs, ie: the children. The "children" in
                                          Johannine literature are the members, especially the
                                          newest members, of the community (the household).

                                          (2) *poimaine ta probata mou* (Tend my sheep).

                                          I suggest that there is a nuance of difference here
                                          from the first "ordination." What Jesus is ordaining
                                          Peter to do here is more than delivering the food (the
                                          sacrament? the gospel?) to them. He is ordaining
                                          Peter to rule the sheep (a term that includes both the
                                          newest and the more *mature* members of the community)
                                          like a shepherd tends, guides, directs, protects *the
                                          flock.* I submit that this is an ordination to the
                                          role of elder.

                                          (3) *baske ta probata mou* (Feed my sheep) may imply
                                          a third level of ordination, though this one is harder
                                          to see.

                                          As many of you know, I see in Jn. 12: 7 Jesus'
                                          words of ordination of Mary of Bethany (the Beloved
                                          Disciple) to a role among the disciples equivalent to
                                          that of bishop in the first century church (See my Let
                                          Her Keep It: Jesus' Ordination of Mary of Bethany)

                                          Recognizing that Jn. 21 is an addendum to the
                                          gospel, and that this three-fold exchange occurs
                                          between Jesus and Peter just before Peter asks Jesus,
                                          "Lord, what about him?" (meaning the BD),
                                          I suggest that this third utterance by Jesus was
                                          intended to ordain Peter to the same level of
                                          authority within the Johannine community as had
                                          already been given to Mary of Bethany, that of Bishop.
                                          "Feed my sheep," may well suggest that the role
                                          involves offering the spiritual food given in the
                                          Jesus tradition, which the Bishop oversees.

                                          I suspect that it was necessary for the sake of
                                          gaining acceptance of the Gospel within the
                                          established *orthodox* (ie: Petrine) church, to
                                          acknowledge that Peter had been fully authorized by
                                          Jesus. Also, I suspect that this message was added to
                                          the Gospel to convey to the scattered members of the
                                          Johannine community the necessity of recognizing
                                          Peter's authority.

                                          The text (esp. Jn. 21: 20-23) makes it clear that
                                          Peter's ordination does not negate or supersede that
                                          of the Beloved Disciple.

                                          Yours in Christ's service,
                                          Tom Butler


                                          --- Fred Guyette <fguyette@...> wrote:

                                          >
                                          > It's been more than twenty years since I read about
                                          > this in Raymond
                                          > Brown's commentary on John in the Anchor Bible
                                          > series, but I do recall
                                          > being struck by what Brown saw as a connection
                                          > between the two episodes.
                                          > Working from memory, I would not characterize it as
                                          > atonement exactly,
                                          > but it was meant to bring Peter to a new level of
                                          > discipleship -- maybe
                                          > "restoration" would be closer to Brown's
                                          > interpretation. Jesus clearly
                                          > is recalling Peter's denials, and just as clearly
                                          > saying -- "Peter,
                                          > you're back in the game, and this is what I want you
                                          > to do from now on..."
                                          >
                                          > Maybe someone has read Brown more recently and can
                                          > comment more directly.
                                          >
                                          > Fred Guyette
                                          > Erskine College and Seminary
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > John Bailey wrote:
                                          >
                                          > >Hi Jo, Tom and All,
                                          > >
                                          > >Might be worth calling to mind the post
                                          > resurrection
                                          > >scene where Jesus makes a point of asking Peter
                                          > >three times whether he loves him.
                                          > >
                                          > >This is a form of atonement
                                          > >for the the three denials?
                                          > >
                                          > >Love, John.
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >--- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom
                                          > Butler
                                          > ><pastor_t@...> wrote:
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >>Joe,
                                          > >> I tried to use the link you provided. It didn't
                                          > >>work, but referred me to fourthgospel.com. I went
                                          > >>there and found one paper written by you on
                                          > >>Witnessing. Is that the one to which you are
                                          > >>referring?
                                          > >>
                                          > >>Tom Butler
                                          > >>
                                          > >>--- SemioticSymphony@... wrote:
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >>>In a recent paper, I link the Joshua passage you
                                          > >>>site to the stone of Jesus
                                          > >>>tomb:
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>_http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf_
                                          > >>>(http://www.fourthgospel.com/calandrino.pdf)
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>Best regards,
                                          > >>>Joe C.
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>Joseph Calandrino, FAAFP, DABHPM
                                          > >>>Assistant Professor of Medicine
                                          > >>>University Hospital School of Medicine
                                          > >>>SUNY Stony Brook
                                          > >>>
                                          > >>>
                                          > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system
                                          > color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System
                                          > color=#0000ff>Tom
                                          > >>
                                          > >>
                                          > >Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                          > >MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                          >
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                          >
                                          > >Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          > >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                                          > removed]
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                                          > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                          >
                                          http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                          >
                                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                          >
                                          > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                                          >
                                          > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >
                                          >





                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                        Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.