Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

Re: [John_Lit] Radical Chic: J of A, Nic, and the Boys of the Way

Expand Messages
  • Ron Price
    ... Kevin, Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the theology and style is typically Johannine, looks very much like an imaginative composition by the
    Message 1 of 21 , Mar 21, 2006
    • 0 Attachment
      Kevin wrote:

      > I want to toss out the possibility that Nicodemus, who I believe
      > appears only in John, is a purely fictional character, invented as a
      > foil for Jesus.

      Kevin,

      Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the theology and style is
      typically Johannine, looks very much like an imaginative composition by the
      author of the gospel.

      Ron Price

      Derbyshire, UK

      Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
    • Diane Yoder
      What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as a
      Message 2 of 21 , Mar 22, 2006
      • 0 Attachment
        What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as a theology scholar, I am interested in the justification for this hypothesis.

        Diane Yoder
        University of St. Michael's College
        Toronto School of Theology

        Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
        Kevin wrote:

        > I want to toss out the possibility that Nicodemus, who I believe
        > appears only in John, is a purely fictional character, invented as a
        > foil for Jesus.

        Kevin,

        Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the theology and style is
        typically Johannine, looks very much like an imaginative composition by the
        author of the gospel.

        Ron Price

        Derbyshire, UK

        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm





        SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
        UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
        Yahoo! Groups Links









        ---------------------------------
        Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • pastor_t@pacbell.net
        Joe, I don t see how your title could offend anyone. Other than symphony, the image of layers of an onion is often used. I like symphony better ... Its
        Message 3 of 21 , Mar 23, 2006
        • 0 Attachment
          Joe,
          I don't see how your title could offend anyone. Other than "symphony,"
          the image of layers of an onion is often used. I like symphony better ...
          Its more tasteful.

          Tom

          -----Original Message-----
          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
          SemioticSymphony@...
          Sent: Saturday, March 18, 2006 3:45 PM
          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Radical Chic: J of A, Nic, and the Boys of the Way


          In a message dated 3/18/2006 10:50:01 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
          pastor_t@... writes:

          I assume you will be expanding on the phrase in Jn.
          19: 38 where Joseph of Arimathea is identified as a secret disciple of
          Jesus.


          Hello Tom:

          Thank you so much for your thoughts and observations. Jn 19:38 must be my
          point of departure, and, while I will give some acknowledgment to the other
          evangelists, I have made a critical decision to limit my investigation to J
          and N as they are represented in 4G.

          You wrote:

          "I would be interested in hearing your thoughts about what happens to these
          two (and others?) secret disciples after the burial of Jesus."

          Again, because I have chosen to limit my investigation to the 4G, I am at a
          loss to comment on any interrogation of subsequent material, whether that be
          the Acts of Pilate, Gospel of Nicodemus, or the Glastonbury material ( and
          any of the later mediaeval imaginative texts). I might need to amend my
          position on these matters, but I am trying to avoid excessively speculative
          commentary, or obvious ridiculous pursuits.

          You wrote:

          "My theory is that they became part of those who gathered into a community
          lead by the Beloved Disciple (who took the mother of Jesus "to His own.")

          The influence of an extraordinary scholar or set of scholars of the Hebrew
          scriptures is evident in the Fourth Gospel. Could this have been
          Nicodemus?"

          your theory seems sound, given what data we have from 4G. I will try to
          adduce what is suppressed by 4G, what is hidden yet present.

          You might recall my observations on the Nicodemus episode and the concepts
          of liminality and authority.

          You wrote:

          "I like your title. As you know, my work has focused on the extensive use
          of semeia borrowed from the Septuagint, mostly from the Torah. It is quite
          appropriate to describe the Fourth Gospel as "A Symphony of Signs." "

          I am familiar with your contribution, and I might add that I have enjoyed
          our productive exchanges in the past. The musical image is excellent. I
          might decide later to change my title, for it might offend some, and my goal
          is always to interrogate and illuminate, and address as wide an audience as
          possible.

          Best regards,
          Joe C.





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



          SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
          Yahoo! Groups Links
        • Timothy P. Jenney
          I really don t think there is much possibility of determining whether a character is real [or not] from the internal evidence of 4G. That s not just true for
          Message 4 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
          • 0 Attachment
            I really don't think there is much possibility of determining whether a
            character is real [or not] from the internal evidence of 4G. That's not just
            true for Nicodemus, but for every character in the Gospel. All of them are
            [just] "foils" for Jesus!

            4G has many of the literary features of myth or legend, where the original
            event has been stripped down to his/her/its essentials, "abstracted," if you
            will, in order to better serve as a universal referent. It's like the
            difference between a photograph of a fruit bowl, an oil painting of it and
            an abstract painting of it.

            I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit of using real
            characters as templates for his literary work, though some of these
            characters may be composites and others represent the actions of groups.
            That said, I would not be so quick to dismiss the possibility of Nicodemus
            as having been a real person. I'm certain I would not do so based on any
            specific "literary characteristics" in this particular gospel.

            Tim Jenney
            Adj. NT prof.,
            Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando



            > From: Diane Yoder <torontoscholar@...>

            >
            > What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that
            > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as
            > a theology scholar, I am interested in the justification for this hypothesis.
            >
            > Diane Yoder
            > University of St. Michael's College
            > Toronto School of Theology
            >
            > Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
            > Kevin wrote:
            >
            >> I want to toss out the possibility that Nicodemus, who I believe
            >> appears only in John, is a purely fictional character, invented as a
            >> foil for Jesus.
            >
            > Kevin,
            >
            > Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the theology and style is
            > typically Johannine, looks very much like an imaginative composition by the
            > author of the gospel.
            >
            > Ron Price
            >
            > Derbyshire, UK
            >
            > Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ---------------------------------
            > Share your photos with the people who matter at Yahoo! Canada Photos
            >
            > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
            > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
            > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Tom Butler
            Tim, Diane and all, My interest in considering any character in the 4G as a literary character grows especially out of my consideration of Lazarus, who appears
            Message 5 of 21 , Mar 24, 2006
            • 0 Attachment
              Tim, Diane and all,
              My interest in considering any character in the 4G
              as a literary character grows especially out of my
              consideration of Lazarus, who appears to have a larger
              than life role in the Jesus narrative, yet he is not
              mentioned at all by the other cannonical gospels or in
              the Acts of the Apostles or in any other (especially
              historical) record that I've been able to find of the
              first century Christian communities. It hardly seems
              likely that a person whom Jesus raised from death at a
              point in the 4G narrative so near to Jesus' own
              resurrection would not receive even a mention in any
              other (especially cannonical) source.
              I find Tim's comment useful:
              > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
              > of using real characters as templates for his
              > literary work, though some of these characters may
              > be composites and others represent the actions of
              > groups.

              Indeed, the 4G, especially in reference to Lazarus,
              seems to follow the example of Jesus, Himself, who
              created characters (usually without names) in His
              parables. Lazarus is the one exception to the rule of
              no name for these characters (Luke 16: 19-31). In
              this case, the author(s) of the 4G seem(s) to have
              elaborated upon what at first appears to be a literary
              character, keeping little more than the death and
              resurrection theme and the name of the principle
              character. Does that mean that Lazarus was not a
              historical figure, a "real" person? I don't think so,
              but I do agree with Tim that Lazarus may represent an
              entire group of people. (I have suggested that that
              group could be Temple Priests or even the Temple
              priesthood. That theory is consistent with a careful
              reading of the parable in Luke, identifying "the rich
              man" as the High Priest and the gates outside of which
              Lazarus lays dying (starving?) as the gates to the
              temple.)
              The point of course is that a character in any
              narrative, including the 4G can be both a literary
              character AND a historical character. In ancient
              literature myth and history are not so distinct.

              Tom Butler
              --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
              wrote:

              > I really don't think there is much possibility of
              > determining whether a
              > character is real [or not] from the internal
              > evidence of 4G. That's not just
              > true for Nicodemus, but for every character in the
              > Gospel. All of them are
              > [just] "foils" for Jesus!
              >
              > 4G has many of the literary features of myth or
              > legend, where the original
              > event has been stripped down to his/her/its
              > essentials, "abstracted," if you
              > will, in order to better serve as a universal
              > referent. It's like the
              > difference between a photograph of a fruit bowl, an
              > oil painting of it and
              > an abstract painting of it.
              >
              > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
              > of using real
              > characters as templates for his literary work,
              > though some of these
              > characters may be composites and others represent
              > the actions of groups.
              > That said, I would not be so quick to dismiss the
              > possibility of Nicodemus
              > as having been a real person. I'm certain I would
              > not do so based on any
              > specific "literary characteristics" in this
              > particular gospel.
              >
              > Tim Jenney
              > Adj. NT prof.,
              > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
              >
              >
              >
              > > From: Diane Yoder <torontoscholar@...>
              >
              > >
              > > What literary characteristics do you see that
              > leads you to believe that
              > > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no
              > opinion on the subject, but as
              > > a theology scholar, I am interested in the
              > justification for this hypothesis.
              > >
              > > Diane Yoder
              > > University of St. Michael's College
              > > Toronto School of Theology
              > >
              > > Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote:
              > > Kevin wrote:
              > >
              > >> I want to toss out the possibility that
              > Nicodemus, who I believe
              > >> appears only in John, is a purely fictional
              > character, invented as a
              > >> foil for Jesus.
              > >
              > > Kevin,
              > >
              > > Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the
              > theology and style is
              > > typically Johannine, looks very much like an
              > imaginative composition by the
              > > author of the gospel.
              > >
              > > Ron Price
              > >
              > > Derbyshire, UK
              > >
              > > Web site:
              > http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > ---------------------------------
              > > Share your photos with the people who matter at
              > Yahoo! Canada Photos
              > >
              > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
              > removed]
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              > > Yahoo! Groups Links
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
              > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
              >
              http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
              >
              > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            • Ron Price
              ... Diane, John 3:1ff. has a style and vocabulary typical of the gospel as a whole, with no detectable distinction based on whether the words belong to Jesus,
              Message 6 of 21 , Mar 25, 2006
              • 0 Attachment
                Diane Yoder wrote:

                > What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that
                > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as
                > a theology scholar, I am interested in the justification for this hypothesis.

                Diane,

                John 3:1ff. has a style and vocabulary typical of the gospel as a whole,
                with no detectable distinction based on whether the words belong to Jesus,
                someone else, or the narrator. This fact is well illustrated here by
                3:16-21. Are these supposed to be Jesus' words or the narrator's words?
                Scholars cannot be sure. Along with other features, the text can be seen to
                have the characteristics of myth or legend (c.f. Tim Jenney's posting).

                The crucial question then is whether the story was written around a core
                involving a historical person called Nicodemus, or whether "Nicodemus" was
                merely part of the myth.

                I cannot *prove* that Nicodemus was unhistorical, but it looks to me very
                likely. Why would the author have any need to choose a historical person for
                his foil? With a fictional character, the author is free to choose a name
                which has a subtle meaning, e.g. as Kevin has suggested. The author of
                John's gospel was fond of subtle meanings.

                Ron Price

                Derbyshire, UK

                Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
              • kalvachomer
                Tom, Diane, Tim, Some brief if belated responses. Tom, I don t see Nicodemus as representing the Sanhedrin, even though as a leader of the Jews and teacher
                Message 7 of 21 , Mar 25, 2006
                • 0 Attachment
                  Tom, Diane, Tim,

                  Some brief if belated responses. Tom, I don't see Nicodemus as
                  representing the Sanhedrin, even though as a "leader of the Jews" and
                  "teacher of Israel" he might have been a member, had he existed. He does
                  not appear threatened by, or hostile towards, Jesus and his followers.
                  He approaches Jesus as an individual, not as a member of a group, and by
                  night because he is out of step with his social group and would be
                  embarrassed to be found calling on this wandering holy man from
                  Gallilee. He does not come to trap Jesus into an incriminating
                  statement, but appears to be trying to make sense of this preacher who
                  speaks with authority, has a God-given ability to heal, yet makes a
                  point of breaking Jewish law and (to follow the sequence in John), has
                  created a major disturbance at the Temple.

                  But no sooner has Nicodemus respectfully opened the conversation than
                  Jesus redirects it, telling Nicodemus not only that he doesn't
                  understand, but as one not reborn of water and spirit he can't
                  understand. Jesus doesn't deign to explain how Nicodemus might himself
                  be "born anew"; one might infer that since the spirit, like the wind,
                  blows where it wills, there is nothing Jesus or Nicodemus can do to cure
                  Nicodemus's evident spiritual idiocy. Jesus then utters a series of
                  pronouncements that Nicodemus, had he existed, would surely have found
                  unintelligible, and Nicodemus disappears from view.

                  Perhaps the point is that Jesus stands outside the categories of
                  Nicodemus's Judaism; to call Jesus a teacher, even one sent by God, as
                  Nicodemus does, reveals a failure of understanding. Jesus is not a
                  bearer of God's message to be understood, but is God's presence to be
                  experienced.

                  But perhaps the real point is to show Jesus' triumph over Nicodemus,
                  whose sins, other than the timidity of his response to Jesus, appear to
                  be that he is wealthy, a leader, a rabbi, and a Pharisee. To show this
                  powerful figure sneaking out to meet Jesus at night, obsequiously
                  addressing him as "Rabbi," only to be reduced by a magisterial Jesus
                  to stammering befuddlement, is almost comic. I only pointed out that
                  his name appeared to set him up for his downfall.

                  Tom, I was going to ask you why you thought Lazarus might be a stand-in
                  for the Temple priests. I saw your reference to the Lazarus parable in
                  Luke and reread it, but I see no allusion to priests or the Temple. Can
                  you say more? It is interesting that Jesus is Greek for Joshua, in the
                  book of Joshua, Joshua is paired with Aaron's son Eleazar as High
                  Priest, and Eleazar is Lazarus in Hellenized Aramaic. But John's
                  Lazarus is entirely passive, so that coincidence appears to fizzle. I
                  have my own wild speculation about Lazarus, but it involves a chain of
                  inferences and I'll save it.

                  Diane, I had no "literary characteristics" in mind; it seemed obvious.
                  But after writing my post I happened to look in John Ashton's anthology,
                  The Interpretation of John (2d ed. 1997), and found the following at p.
                  176-77, from a 1972 essay by John A. Meeks, The Man From Heaven in
                  Johannine Sectarianism, originally published in JBL 91 (1972) at 44-72:

                  Nicodemus plays a well-known role: that of the rather stupid disciple
                  whose maladroit questions provide the occasion (a) for the reader to
                  feel superior and (b) for the sage who is questioned to deliver a
                  discourse. The genre is widespread in the Greco-Roman world . . . . In
                  such contexts, one frequently meets the cliche', "You do not understand
                  earthly things, and you seek to know heavenly ones?"

                  Kevin


                  --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler <pastor_t@...>
                  wrote:
                  >
                  > Tim, Diane and all,
                  > My interest in considering any character in the 4G
                  > as a literary character grows especially out of my
                  > consideration of Lazarus, who appears to have a larger
                  > than life role in the Jesus narrative, yet he is not
                  > mentioned at all by the other cannonical gospels or in
                  > the Acts of the Apostles or in any other (especially
                  > historical) record that I've been able to find of the
                  > first century Christian communities. It hardly seems
                  > likely that a person whom Jesus raised from death at a
                  > point in the 4G narrative so near to Jesus' own
                  > resurrection would not receive even a mention in any
                  > other (especially cannonical) source.
                  > I find Tim's comment useful:
                  > > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
                  > > of using real characters as templates for his
                  > > literary work, though some of these characters may
                  > > be composites and others represent the actions of
                  > > groups.
                  >
                  > Indeed, the 4G, especially in reference to Lazarus,
                  > seems to follow the example of Jesus, Himself, who
                  > created characters (usually without names) in His
                  > parables. Lazarus is the one exception to the rule of
                  > no name for these characters (Luke 16: 19-31). In
                  > this case, the author(s) of the 4G seem(s) to have
                  > elaborated upon what at first appears to be a literary
                  > character, keeping little more than the death and
                  > resurrection theme and the name of the principle
                  > character. Does that mean that Lazarus was not a
                  > historical figure, a "real" person? I don't think so,
                  > but I do agree with Tim that Lazarus may represent an
                  > entire group of people. (I have suggested that that
                  > group could be Temple Priests or even the Temple
                  > priesthood. That theory is consistent with a careful
                  > reading of the parable in Luke, identifying "the rich
                  > man" as the High Priest and the gates outside of which
                  > Lazarus lays dying (starving?) as the gates to the
                  > temple.)
                  > The point of course is that a character in any
                  > narrative, including the 4G can be both a literary
                  > character AND a historical character. In ancient
                  > literature myth and history are not so distinct.
                  >
                  > Tom Butler
                  > --- "Timothy P. Jenney" drjenney@...
                  > wrote:
                  >
                  > > I really don't think there is much possibility of
                  > > determining whether a
                  > > character is real [or not] from the internal
                  > > evidence of 4G. That's not just
                  > > true for Nicodemus, but for every character in the
                  > > Gospel. All of them are
                  > > [just] "foils" for Jesus!
                  > >
                  > > 4G has many of the literary features of myth or
                  > > legend, where the original
                  > > event has been stripped down to his/her/its
                  > > essentials, "abstracted," if you
                  > > will, in order to better serve as a universal
                  > > referent. It's like the
                  > > difference between a photograph of a fruit bowl, an
                  > > oil painting of it and
                  > > an abstract painting of it.
                  > >
                  > > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
                  > > of using real
                  > > characters as templates for his literary work,
                  > > though some of these
                  > > characters may be composites and others represent
                  > > the actions of groups.
                  > > That said, I would not be so quick to dismiss the
                  > > possibility of Nicodemus
                  > > as having been a real person. I'm certain I would
                  > > not do so based on any
                  > > specific "literary characteristics" in this
                  > > particular gospel.
                  > >
                  > > Tim Jenney
                  > > Adj. NT prof.,
                  > > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > > From: Diane Yoder torontoscholar@...
                  > >
                  > > >
                  > > > What literary characteristics do you see that
                  > > leads you to believe that
                  > > > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no
                  > > opinion on the subject, but as
                  > > > a theology scholar, I am interested in the
                  > > justification for this hypothesis.
                  > > >
                  > > > Diane Yoder
                  > > > University of St. Michael's College
                  > > > Toronto School of Theology
                  > > >
                  > > > Ron Price ron.price@... wrote:
                  > > > Kevin wrote:
                  > > >
                  > > >> I want to toss out the possibility that
                  > > Nicodemus, who I believe
                  > > >> appears only in John, is a purely fictional
                  > > character, invented as a
                  > > >> foil for Jesus.
                  > > >
                  > > > Kevin,
                  > > >
                  > > > Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the
                  > > theology and style is
                  > > > typically Johannine, looks very much like an
                  > > imaginative composition by the
                  > > > author of the gospel.
                  > > >
                  > > > Ron Price
                  > > >
                  > > > Derbyshire, UK
                  > > >
                  > > > Web site:
                  > > http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                  > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > ---------------------------------
                  > > > Share your photos with the people who matter at
                  > > Yahoo! Canada Photos
                  > > >
                  > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                  > > removed]
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                  > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                  > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                  > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                  > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                  > >
                  > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                  > >
                  > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                  > >
                  > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                  > >
                  > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  >
                  > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
                  service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  >




                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • John Bailey
                  Hi Tom and All, ... So where do we go from here when there are no other historical written sources to help us out? If we consider that everything that ever
                  Message 8 of 21 , Mar 26, 2006
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Hi Tom and All,

                    >My interest in considering any character in the 4G
                    >as a literary character grows especially out of my
                    >consideration of Lazarus, who appears to have a larger
                    >than life role in the Jesus narrative, yet he is not
                    >mentioned at all by the other cannonical gospels or in
                    >the Acts of the Apostles or in any other (especially
                    >historical) record that I've been able to find of the
                    >first century Christian communities. It hardly seems
                    >likely that a person whom Jesus raised from death at a
                    >point in the 4G narrative so near to Jesus' own
                    >resurrection would not receive even a mention in any
                    >other (especially cannonical) source.

                    So where do we go from here when there are
                    no other historical written sources to help us out?
                    If we consider that everything that ever was, is or will be
                    has its resonance in eternity, then perhaps we can treat
                    sympathetically a writing such as Sholem Asch's 'The Nazarene,'
                    which I recommend for the authenticity of its feeling.

                    **************

                    Lazarus died and he is an occasion whereby it is shown that
                    death is not a final state — because he can be lifted up.
                    Did Lazarus sin that he died in this way?
                    Was he saved from his sin — or was the whole situation
                    simply another necessity of manifesting
                    the totality of cosmic possibilities?

                    > I find Tim's comment useful:
                    > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
                    > of using real characters as templates for his
                    > literary work, though some of these characters may
                    > be composites and others represent the actions of
                    > groups.

                    >Indeed, the 4G, especially in reference to Lazarus,
                    >seems to follow the example of Jesus, Himself, who
                    >created characters (usually without names) in His
                    >parables. Lazarus is the one exception to the rule of
                    >no name for these characters (Luke 16: 19-31). In
                    >this case, the author(s) of the 4G seem(s) to have
                    >elaborated upon what at first appears to be a literary
                    >character, keeping little more than the death and
                    >resurrection theme and the name of the principle
                    >character. Does that mean that Lazarus was not a
                    >historical figure, a "real" person? I don't think so,
                    >but I do agree with Tim that Lazarus may represent an
                    >entire group of people. (I have suggested that that
                    >group could be Temple Priests or even the Temple
                    >priesthood. That theory is consistent with a careful
                    >reading of the parable in Luke, identifying "the rich
                    >man" as the High Priest and the gates outside of which
                    >Lazarus lays dying (starving?) as the gates to the
                    >temple.)
                    > The point of course is that a character in any
                    >narrative, including the 4G can be both a literary
                    >character AND a historical character. In ancient
                    >literature myth and history are not so distinct.

                    If we take John's as being a spiritual handbook
                    then we can view the characters not only as
                    literary and historical, but also characters
                    internal to each of us,
                    characterisations of aspects of being
                    in our own personal mellow drama,
                    the macrocosmos re-presented in our own microcosm.
                    Indeed, if we don't internalise the story in this manner,
                    what real significance can it all have for us?

                    At the raising of Lazarus where he raises the dead,
                    Jesus gives a performance that shows he has
                    command over life and death. And as you say, Tom,
                    this incident is very close to his own death
                    ...which leads me to another consideration.

                    No sooner has Jesus demonstrated this capacity
                    in the time process, to avoid the complete subordination
                    of every other finite being to his image
                    (that would have paralysed them completely if it had remained),
                    then he crucified it. This implies a Great Law
                    to which that being in the form 'Jesus' was aligning himself:
                    "Thou shalt not have a visible god which is omnipotent."

                    Let's suppose that Christ had said when they put him on the cross,
                    to the challenge, "come down off the cross if you are the Son of
                    God." Supposing he'd come down, supposing he'd just floated down
                    leaving the nails up there ....
                    I don't believe the Rabbis or anybody else
                    would have dared to touch him.
                    Do you think anybody would have dared to move
                    ...without consulting him first?
                    There would have been a finite being in the time process
                    with a continuous pilgrimage to this point.
                    In such a world, we would not bother to
                    fall back on our own centre of being,
                    to our own, 'kingdom of heaven within'.

                    Joh 15:13
                    "Greater love hath no man than this,
                    that a man lay down his life for his friends."

                    Love and peace to all,
                    John (Chester, England).
                  • Diane Yoder
                    Well, actually, one can t get away from literary characteristics... it IS literature, after all, and literary analyses can fill out the picture along with
                    Message 9 of 21 , Mar 26, 2006
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Well, actually, one can't get away from 'literary characteristics...' it IS literature, after all, and literary analyses can fill out the picture along with linguistic studies, biblical studies and archaeological evidence.

                      Diane Yoder, Historical Theology
                      Toronto School of Theology


                      kalvachomer <kalvachomer@...> wrote:
                      Tom, Diane, Tim,

                      Some brief if belated responses. Tom, I don't see Nicodemus as
                      representing the Sanhedrin, even though as a "leader of the Jews" and
                      "teacher of Israel" he might have been a member, had he existed. He does
                      not appear threatened by, or hostile towards, Jesus and his followers.
                      He approaches Jesus as an individual, not as a member of a group, and by
                      night because he is out of step with his social group and would be
                      embarrassed to be found calling on this wandering holy man from
                      Gallilee. He does not come to trap Jesus into an incriminating
                      statement, but appears to be trying to make sense of this preacher who
                      speaks with authority, has a God-given ability to heal, yet makes a
                      point of breaking Jewish law and (to follow the sequence in John), has
                      created a major disturbance at the Temple.

                      But no sooner has Nicodemus respectfully opened the conversation than
                      Jesus redirects it, telling Nicodemus not only that he doesn't
                      understand, but as one not reborn of water and spirit he can't
                      understand. Jesus doesn't deign to explain how Nicodemus might himself
                      be "born anew"; one might infer that since the spirit, like the wind,
                      blows where it wills, there is nothing Jesus or Nicodemus can do to cure
                      Nicodemus's evident spiritual idiocy. Jesus then utters a series of
                      pronouncements that Nicodemus, had he existed, would surely have found
                      unintelligible, and Nicodemus disappears from view.

                      Perhaps the point is that Jesus stands outside the categories of
                      Nicodemus's Judaism; to call Jesus a teacher, even one sent by God, as
                      Nicodemus does, reveals a failure of understanding. Jesus is not a
                      bearer of God's message to be understood, but is God's presence to be
                      experienced.

                      But perhaps the real point is to show Jesus' triumph over Nicodemus,
                      whose sins, other than the timidity of his response to Jesus, appear to
                      be that he is wealthy, a leader, a rabbi, and a Pharisee. To show this
                      powerful figure sneaking out to meet Jesus at night, obsequiously
                      addressing him as "Rabbi," only to be reduced by a magisterial Jesus
                      to stammering befuddlement, is almost comic. I only pointed out that
                      his name appeared to set him up for his downfall.

                      Tom, I was going to ask you why you thought Lazarus might be a stand-in
                      for the Temple priests. I saw your reference to the Lazarus parable in
                      Luke and reread it, but I see no allusion to priests or the Temple. Can
                      you say more? It is interesting that Jesus is Greek for Joshua, in the
                      book of Joshua, Joshua is paired with Aaron's son Eleazar as High
                      Priest, and Eleazar is Lazarus in Hellenized Aramaic. But John's
                      Lazarus is entirely passive, so that coincidence appears to fizzle. I
                      have my own wild speculation about Lazarus, but it involves a chain of
                      inferences and I'll save it.

                      Diane, I had no "literary characteristics" in mind; it seemed obvious.
                      But after writing my post I happened to look in John Ashton's anthology,
                      The Interpretation of John (2d ed. 1997), and found the following at p.
                      176-77, from a 1972 essay by John A. Meeks, The Man From Heaven in
                      Johannine Sectarianism, originally published in JBL 91 (1972) at 44-72:

                      Nicodemus plays a well-known role: that of the rather stupid disciple
                      whose maladroit questions provide the occasion (a) for the reader to
                      feel superior and (b) for the sage who is questioned to deliver a
                      discourse. The genre is widespread in the Greco-Roman world . . . . In
                      such contexts, one frequently meets the cliche', "You do not understand
                      earthly things, and you seek to know heavenly ones?"

                      Kevin


                      --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, Tom Butler

                      wrote:
                      >
                      > Tim, Diane and all,
                      > My interest in considering any character in the 4G
                      > as a literary character grows especially out of my
                      > consideration of Lazarus, who appears to have a larger
                      > than life role in the Jesus narrative, yet he is not
                      > mentioned at all by the other cannonical gospels or in
                      > the Acts of the Apostles or in any other (especially
                      > historical) record that I've been able to find of the
                      > first century Christian communities. It hardly seems
                      > likely that a person whom Jesus raised from death at a
                      > point in the 4G narrative so near to Jesus' own
                      > resurrection would not receive even a mention in any
                      > other (especially cannonical) source.
                      > I find Tim's comment useful:
                      > > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
                      > > of using real characters as templates for his
                      > > literary work, though some of these characters may
                      > > be composites and others represent the actions of
                      > > groups.
                      >
                      > Indeed, the 4G, especially in reference to Lazarus,
                      > seems to follow the example of Jesus, Himself, who
                      > created characters (usually without names) in His
                      > parables. Lazarus is the one exception to the rule of
                      > no name for these characters (Luke 16: 19-31). In
                      > this case, the author(s) of the 4G seem(s) to have
                      > elaborated upon what at first appears to be a literary
                      > character, keeping little more than the death and
                      > resurrection theme and the name of the principle
                      > character. Does that mean that Lazarus was not a
                      > historical figure, a "real" person? I don't think so,
                      > but I do agree with Tim that Lazarus may represent an
                      > entire group of people. (I have suggested that that
                      > group could be Temple Priests or even the Temple
                      > priesthood. That theory is consistent with a careful
                      > reading of the parable in Luke, identifying "the rich
                      > man" as the High Priest and the gates outside of which
                      > Lazarus lays dying (starving?) as the gates to the
                      > temple.)
                      > The point of course is that a character in any
                      > narrative, including the 4G can be both a literary
                      > character AND a historical character. In ancient
                      > literature myth and history are not so distinct.
                      >
                      > Tom Butler
                      > --- "Timothy P. Jenney" drjenney@...
                      > wrote:
                      >
                      > > I really don't think there is much possibility of
                      > > determining whether a
                      > > character is real [or not] from the internal
                      > > evidence of 4G. That's not just
                      > > true for Nicodemus, but for every character in the
                      > > Gospel. All of them are
                      > > [just] "foils" for Jesus!
                      > >
                      > > 4G has many of the literary features of myth or
                      > > legend, where the original
                      > > event has been stripped down to his/her/its
                      > > essentials, "abstracted," if you
                      > > will, in order to better serve as a universal
                      > > referent. It's like the
                      > > difference between a photograph of a fruit bowl, an
                      > > oil painting of it and
                      > > an abstract painting of it.
                      > >
                      > > I do think though, that the author of 4G has a habit
                      > > of using real
                      > > characters as templates for his literary work,
                      > > though some of these
                      > > characters may be composites and others represent
                      > > the actions of groups.
                      > > That said, I would not be so quick to dismiss the
                      > > possibility of Nicodemus
                      > > as having been a real person. I'm certain I would
                      > > not do so based on any
                      > > specific "literary characteristics" in this
                      > > particular gospel.
                      > >
                      > > Tim Jenney
                      > > Adj. NT prof.,
                      > > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > > From: Diane Yoder torontoscholar@...
                      > >
                      > > >
                      > > > What literary characteristics do you see that
                      > > leads you to believe that
                      > > > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no
                      > > opinion on the subject, but as
                      > > > a theology scholar, I am interested in the
                      > > justification for this hypothesis.
                      > > >
                      > > > Diane Yoder
                      > > > University of St. Michael's College
                      > > > Toronto School of Theology
                      > > >
                      > > > Ron Price ron.price@... wrote:
                      > > > Kevin wrote:
                      > > >
                      > > >> I want to toss out the possibility that
                      > > Nicodemus, who I believe
                      > > >> appears only in John, is a purely fictional
                      > > character, invented as a
                      > > >> foil for Jesus.
                      > > >
                      > > > Kevin,
                      > > >
                      > > > Agreed. The long speech in 3:1ff., in which the
                      > > theology and style is
                      > > > typically Johannine, looks very much like an
                      > > imaginative composition by the
                      > > > author of the gospel.
                      > > >
                      > > > Ron Price
                      > > >
                      > > > Derbyshire, UK
                      > > >
                      > > > Web site:
                      > > http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                      > >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ---------------------------------
                      > > > Share your photos with the people who matter at
                      > > Yahoo! Canada Photos
                      > > >
                      > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been
                      > > removed]
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                      > >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                      > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                      > >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      > >
                      > > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      > >
                      > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                      > >
                      > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      Yours in Christ's
                      service,

                      > Tom
                      Butler

                      >




                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                      SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      Yahoo! Groups Links










                      ---------------------------------
                      7 bucks a month. This is Huge Yahoo! Music Unlimited

                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Diane Yoder
                      Thank you Ron! Are there any extra-biblical texts written around the same time as John s gospel that one can compare with the style of John, to see if there
                      Message 10 of 21 , Mar 26, 2006
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Thank you Ron! Are there any extra-biblical texts written around the same time as John's gospel that one can compare with the style of John, to see if there are similar stories extant not related to the gospel? (since you mentioned stylistic similarities of myth and legend). For instance, Frances Flannery-Dailey in "Dreamers, Scribes and Priests' draws comparisons between the style and structure of the Pentateuch (and the dreams recorded) with extra biblical Mesopotamian texts from around the same time.

                        Diane Yoder, Historical Theology
                        Toronto School of Theology



                        Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote: Diane Yoder wrote:

                        > What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that
                        > Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as
                        > a theology scholar, I am interested in the justification for this hypothesis.

                        Diane,

                        John 3:1ff. has a style and vocabulary typical of the gospel as a whole,
                        with no detectable distinction based on whether the words belong to Jesus,
                        someone else, or the narrator. This fact is well illustrated here by
                        3:16-21. Are these supposed to be Jesus' words or the narrator's words?
                        Scholars cannot be sure. Along with other features, the text can be seen to
                        have the characteristics of myth or legend (c.f. Tim Jenney's posting).

                        The crucial question then is whether the story was written around a core
                        involving a historical person called Nicodemus, or whether "Nicodemus" was
                        merely part of the myth.

                        I cannot *prove* that Nicodemus was unhistorical, but it looks to me very
                        likely. Why would the author have any need to choose a historical person for
                        his foil? With a fictional character, the author is free to choose a name
                        which has a subtle meaning, e.g. as Kevin has suggested. The author of
                        John's gospel was fond of subtle meanings.

                        Ron Price

                        Derbyshire, UK

                        Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm





                        SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                        Yahoo! Groups Links










                        ---------------------------------
                        7 bucks a month. This is Huge Yahoo! Music Unlimited

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Timothy P. Jenney
                        Hi, all! My reading of 4G suggests the following interpretation of Nicodemus: He comes to Jesus in spiritual darkness [ by night ] in attempt to broker an
                        Message 11 of 21 , Mar 26, 2006
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Hi, all!

                          My reading of 4G suggests the following interpretation of Nicodemus:

                          He comes to Jesus in spiritual darkness ["by night"] in attempt to broker an
                          undercover deal of sorts between Jesus and the religious leaders ["we
                          know..."].

                          Jesus, having nothing to do with such deals, challenges his epistemology.
                          Neither Nicodemus nor his group could know whether Jesus was "sent from God"
                          unless they were spiritually "aware," i.e. "born from above/again."

                          The epistemological test takes the form of a conundrum: how will Nicodemus
                          understand the Jesus' question? Which understanding of Gk. anothen will
                          cause Nicodemus the least cognitive dissonance? If Nicodemus is aware of the
                          possibility of a spiritual birth, he will understand anothen as "spiritual
                          birth" [from above]. If he is not, he is forced to an interpretation that is
                          grotesque, morally repugnant and ceremonially unclean ["go back into his
                          mother's womb"?!?]. Sadly, Nicodemus fails the test.

                          Later though, Nicodemus will separate himself from his former group [7:50]
                          and will identify himself to a Roman authority as having been a secret
                          disciple of Jesus [19:38].

                          The story of Nicodemus thus provides a template: a Jewish religious leader,
                          having personally "heard" Jesus and "judging for himself," becomes a "secret
                          follower" of Jesus, eventually becoming "willing to identify with Jesus in
                          his death," even before a Roman procurator.

                          Tim Jenney
                          Adj NT prof.,
                          Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando


                          > From: Diane Yoder <torontoscholar@...>
                          > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          > Date: Sun, 26 Mar 2006 14:45:22 -0500 (EST)
                          > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Radical Chic: J of A, Nic, and the Boys of the Way
                          >
                          > Thank you Ron! Are there any extra-biblical texts written around the same
                          > time as John's gospel that one can compare with the style of John, to see if
                          > there are similar stories extant not related to the gospel? (since you
                          > mentioned stylistic similarities of myth and legend). For instance, Frances
                          > Flannery-Dailey in "Dreamers, Scribes and Priests' draws comparisons between
                          > the style and structure of the Pentateuch (and the dreams recorded) with extra
                          > biblical Mesopotamian texts from around the same time.
                          >
                          > Diane Yoder, Historical Theology
                          > Toronto School of Theology
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Ron Price <ron.price@...> wrote: Diane Yoder wrote:
                          >
                          >> What literary characteristics do you see that leads you to believe that
                          >> Nicodemus is a fictional character? I have no opinion on the subject, but as
                          >> a theology scholar, I am interested in the justification for this hypothesis.
                          >
                          > Diane,
                          >
                          > John 3:1ff. has a style and vocabulary typical of the gospel as a whole,
                          > with no detectable distinction based on whether the words belong to Jesus,
                          > someone else, or the narrator. This fact is well illustrated here by
                          > 3:16-21. Are these supposed to be Jesus' words or the narrator's words?
                          > Scholars cannot be sure. Along with other features, the text can be seen to
                          > have the characteristics of myth or legend (c.f. Tim Jenney's posting).
                          >
                          > The crucial question then is whether the story was written around a core
                          > involving a historical person called Nicodemus, or whether "Nicodemus" was
                          > merely part of the myth.
                          >
                          > I cannot *prove* that Nicodemus was unhistorical, but it looks to me very
                          > likely. Why would the author have any need to choose a historical person for
                          > his foil? With a fictional character, the author is free to choose a name
                          > which has a subtle meaning, e.g. as Kevin has suggested. The author of
                          > John's gospel was fond of subtle meanings.
                          >
                          > Ron Price
                          >
                          > Derbyshire, UK
                          >
                          > Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > ---------------------------------
                          > 7 bucks a month. This is Huge Yahoo! Music Unlimited
                          >
                          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                          > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >
                        • Ron Price
                          ... Diane, I don t know of anything comparable, but then my knowledge of contemporary extra-biblical texts is rather limited. Ron Price Derbyshire, UK Web
                          Message 12 of 21 , Mar 27, 2006
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Diane Yoder wrote:

                            > Are there any extra-biblical texts written around the same
                            > time as John's gospel that one can compare with the style of John, to see if
                            > there are similar stories extant not related to the gospel?

                            Diane,

                            I don't know of anything comparable, but then my knowledge of contemporary
                            extra-biblical texts is rather limited.

                            Ron Price

                            Derbyshire, UK

                            Web site: http://homepage.virgin.net/ron.price/index.htm
                          Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.