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Re: [John_Lit] Sacraments in John? ("Christ plays in 10,000 places")?

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  • Bill Bullin
    Dear Fred Is it not reasonable to argue, (with Hopkins I think): I kiss my hand to the stars, lovely assunder,.. ); that the whole of time bound cosmic
    Message 1 of 3 , Oct 20, 2005
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      Dear Fred

      Is it not reasonable to argue, (with Hopkins I think): "I kiss my hand
      to the stars, lovely assunder,.."); that the whole of time bound cosmic
      existence is a sacrament through the death and re-birth of the Word / Wisdom
      made flesh, at least from the perspective of faith (cf. Romans 12:1-2), and
      yet within this broad cosmic framework the community of faith shares in
      specific, time regulated and pre-designated sacraments? From this
      perspective the whole of creation is sacred and yet the perspective is not
      pantheistic. David's attitude to King Saul may have a bearing on our
      attitude to both the environment and to those of other faiths and none. See
      also Jean-Pierre de Caussade: The Sacrement of the Present Moment. (E.T.
      Kitty Muggeridge, Harper Row, (1982).

      Bill Bullin (Private Student, East Sussex)

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Fred Guyette <fguyette@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 7:15 PM
      Subject: [John_Lit] Sacraments in John? ("Christ plays in 10,000 places")?


      > I am writing an essay on sacraments in John that I hope to publish later
      > this year. I rehearse the "anti-sacraments" argument of Bultmann and the
      > "pro-sacraments" argument of Cullmann. Other highlights: I try to indicate
      what Luther and
      > Zwingli might have disagreed about in John 6. I think perhaps Sir Edwyn
      > Hoskyns has the best approach to John 6, when he says that it is a
      > sacramental chapter and that it assumes the eucharistic practices of the
      > early church as "understood."
      >
      >
      > I have come to a particular question, however, that I can't quite get a
      > handle on, and I would appreciate comments from list members:
      >
      > Suppose you accept what I will call "the sacramental principle" of the
      > Prologue: "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" -- does this lead
      > you to a Gerard Manley Hopkins type of affirmation that "Christ plays in
      > 10,000 places"? What is there in John's gospel that keeps us from saying
      > anything like this in our worship? Why do we say that there are just 2 or
      just 7 sacraments
      > and not an "infinite number" of sacraments?
      >
      > I know there are creeds and catechisms that teach 2 or 7, but what do we
      > find in John itself that "puts the brakes on"?
      >
      > Thank You,
      > Fred Guyette
      > Erskine College and Seminary
      >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
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    • Paul Anderson
      An important set of issues, Fred; be sure to look at the work of CJ Wright, (Jesus, the Revelation of God, London, 1950) in identifying the sacramental
      Message 2 of 3 , Oct 20, 2005
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        An important set of issues, Fred; be sure to look at the work of CJ
        Wright, (Jesus, the Revelation of God, London, 1950) in identifying the
        sacramental principle of the Fourth Gospel. I found his work very
        helpful in getting a sense of what was at stake in John 1 and John 6.

        I also think that one of the reasons good scholars disagree on their
        treatments of sacraments is the failure to clarify what is meant (and
        not meant) by "sacrament" in John (see my excursus on the subject in
        Christology, pp. 112-114). With David Aune, I think
        "antisacramentalism" is anachronistic, but Johannine criticism of
        religious formalism within Judaism may also have extended to the
        emergence of such within early Christianity. This, or features of
        Johannine primitivity, may explain 4:2 and the absence of words of the
        institution in ch. 13.

        All the best in your important study!

        Paul Anderson

        -----Original Message-----
        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Fred Guyette
        Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 11:16 AM
        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [John_Lit] Sacraments in John? ("Christ plays in 10,000
        places")?

        I am writing an essay on sacraments in John that I hope to publish later
        this year. I rehearse the "anti-sacraments" argument of Bultmann and the
        "pro-sacraments" argument of Cullmann. Other highlights: I try to
        indicate what Luther and
        Zwingli might have disagreed about in John 6. I think perhaps Sir Edwyn
        Hoskyns has the best approach to John 6, when he says that it is a
        sacramental chapter and that it assumes the eucharistic practices of the
        early church as "understood."


        I have come to a particular question, however, that I can't quite get a
        handle on, and I would appreciate comments from list members:

        Suppose you accept what I will call "the sacramental principle" of the
        Prologue: "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" -- does this lead
        you to a Gerard Manley Hopkins type of affirmation that "Christ plays in
        10,000 places"? What is there in John's gospel that keeps us from saying
        anything like this in our worship? Why do we say that there are just 2
        or just 7 sacraments
        and not an "infinite number" of sacraments?

        I know there are creeds and catechisms that teach 2 or 7, but what do we
        find in John itself that "puts the brakes on"?

        Thank You,
        Fred Guyette
        Erskine College and Seminary

        >
        >



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      • Keith Yoder
        Have you looked at Vernard Eller s online book, The Beloved Disciple: His Name, His Story, His Thought, at http://www.hccentral.com/eller8/? He comments
        Message 3 of 3 , Oct 27, 2005
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          Have you looked at Vernard Eller's online book, The Beloved Disciple: His
          Name, His Story, His Thought, at http://www.hccentral.com/eller8/? He
          comments extensively on this subject, especially in the second section of
          the book.

          Keith Yoder
          Portage, Michigan

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Fred Guyette" <fguyette@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Wednesday, October 19, 2005 2:15 PM
          Subject: [John_Lit] Sacraments in John? ("Christ plays in 10,000 places")?


          >I am writing an essay on sacraments in John that I hope to publish later
          > this year. I rehearse the "anti-sacraments" argument of Bultmann and the
          > "pro-sacraments" argument of Cullmann. Other highlights: I try to indicate
          > what Luther and
          > Zwingli might have disagreed about in John 6. I think perhaps Sir Edwyn
          > Hoskyns has the best approach to John 6, when he says that it is a
          > sacramental chapter and that it assumes the eucharistic practices of the
          > early church as "understood."
          >
          >
          > I have come to a particular question, however, that I can't quite get a
          > handle on, and I would appreciate comments from list members:
          >
          > Suppose you accept what I will call "the sacramental principle" of the
          > Prologue: "The Word was made flesh and dwelt among us" -- does this lead
          > you to a Gerard Manley Hopkins type of affirmation that "Christ plays in
          > 10,000 places"? What is there in John's gospel that keeps us from saying
          > anything like this in our worship? Why do we say that there are just 2 or
          > just 7 sacraments
          > and not an "infinite number" of sacraments?
          >
          > I know there are creeds and catechisms that teach 2 or 7, but what do we
          > find in John itself that "puts the brakes on"?
          >
          > Thank You,
          > Fred Guyette
          > Erskine College and Seminary
          >
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          >
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