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Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple

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  • pastor_t@pacbell.net
    Dear J-L Listers, The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are you thinking? Tom Butler
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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      Dear J-L Listers,
      The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
      you thinking?

      Tom Butler
    • chasrscott@netzero.com
      Tom: I liked very much what you wrote. The communion in which I serve has liturgical worship and a strong sense of tradition; so emotionally, your message
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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        Tom:

        I liked very much what you wrote. The communion in which I serve has liturgical worship and a strong sense of tradition; so emotionally, your message spoke to me.

        It also drove me back to the books to see what the text says, which is a good thing. I suspect others are also having another look at this event in Jesus' life.

        Thank you,

        Charles Scott

        ----------------------------
        Dear J-L Listers,
        The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
        you thinking?

        Tom Butler
      • Diane Yoder
        Your explanation seems fairly thorough. I agree with your statement: By wiping his feet with her hair, Mary not only displays her devotion to her Lord, but is
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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          Your explanation seems fairly thorough. I agree with your statement:

          By wiping his feet with her hair, Mary not only
          displays her devotion to her Lord, but is anointed
          herself. Her head is anointed with the same ointment
          (read: scent) as that which consecrates the feet of
          Jesus, her altar. This follows the pattern
          established in Ex. 30: 25-31 in which the same
          anointing oil used on the furnishings and utensils of
          the temple is used to consecrate the high priest and
          the chief priests.

          I submit that what Jesus instructs Judas (and the
          other disciples gathered in the house) to do is to
          allow Mary to keep the scent that identifies her with
          him. Specifically, her role, following his death,
          will be to keep the tradition of his death. She is to
          function among the disciples as a high priest, or in
          First Century terms, as a bishop, overseeing the
          community, seeing to it that the tradition is kept.


          It seems also to me one more demonstration of the fact that Mary 'gets it' while Judas (the disciple) does not.

          Diane Yoder, MA Historical Theology
          University of Toronto

          pastor_t@... wrote:
          Dear J-L Listers,
          The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
          you thinking?

          Tom Butler



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        • Timothy P. Jenney
          Tom, At first blush, I found your argument creative, but not convincing. I need to mull it over some more. However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past.
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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            Tom,

            At first blush, I found your argument creative, but not convincing. I need
            to mull it over some more.

            However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past. I've rejected some
            [apparently] wild interpretations out-of-hand, only to discover later they
            fit perfectly.

            To illustrate: Jesus in John 7: "out of his/its belly shall flow rivers of
            living water."

            Is it 1) the belly of his disciple(s)? 2) His own belly? Or 3) the belly of
            the earth [= Jerusalem]?

            "As the Scripture says" seems to refer to Zech 14 [rivers from Jerusalem],
            which turns out to have been one of the haphtaroth for the Feast
            [Tabernacles]. OK, fine, but blood and water then flow from Jesus' belly in
            ch. 19 [=libations of water and wine for Tabernacles(?), which were
            accompanied by prayers for the resurrection of the dead and the fall
            rains...] And if so, will not these rivers soon also flow from the belly of
            his followers (ch. 20)...?

            I tell my students, "everything in 4G means two things, except where it
            means three!"

            So, like I said, I've learned not to reject anything in 4G too quickly.

            Blessings,

            Timothy P. Jenney
            Adj. NT Prof.,
            Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando

            > From: <pastor_t@...>
            > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:06:52 -0700
            > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
            > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple
            >
            > Dear J-L Listers,
            > The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
            > you thinking?
            >
            > Tom Butler
            >
            >
            >
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          • deborahmillier
            ... I can readily concur. Especially in John s Gospel! Shalom from Manila, --Michael
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 15, 2005
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              Timothy J wrote:


              > I tell my students, "everything in 4G means
              > two things, except where it means three!"

              I can readily concur. Especially in John's Gospel!

              Shalom from Manila,
              --Michael
            • Tom Butler
              Timothy, I share your respect and admiration of the depth and complexity of the 4G. My work focuses on the double layers of meaning in it. I have found that
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 15, 2005
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                Timothy,
                I share your respect and admiration of the depth and
                complexity of the 4G. My work focuses on the double
                layers of meaning in it. I have found that the signs
                so frequently refer noted in the Gospel are literally
                words and symbols borrowed directly from the
                Septuagint version of the Torah. Thus, the meaning of
                a text may have one sense at first glance, while at
                the same time it conveys a deeper meaning informed by
                the Mosaic context from which the sign or signs that
                the text contains. I believe this double (or, with
                you, sometimes triple) entendre is a consequence of
                the use of the Midrash method by its author(s).
                I look forward to further discussion with you.

                Tom Butler

                --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
                wrote:

                > Tom,
                >
                > At first blush, I found your argument creative, but
                > not convincing. I need
                > to mull it over some more.
                >
                > However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past.
                > I've rejected some
                > [apparently] wild interpretations out-of-hand, only
                > to discover later they
                > fit perfectly.
                >
                > To illustrate: Jesus in John 7: "out of his/its
                > belly shall flow rivers of
                > living water."
                >
                > Is it 1) the belly of his disciple(s)? 2) His own
                > belly? Or 3) the belly of
                > the earth [= Jerusalem]?
                >
                > "As the Scripture says" seems to refer to Zech 14
                > [rivers from Jerusalem],
                > which turns out to have been one of the haphtaroth
                > for the Feast
                > [Tabernacles]. OK, fine, but blood and water then
                > flow from Jesus' belly in
                > ch. 19 [=libations of water and wine for
                > Tabernacles(?), which were
                > accompanied by prayers for the resurrection of the
                > dead and the fall
                > rains...] And if so, will not these rivers soon also
                > flow from the belly of
                > his followers (ch. 20)...?
                >
                > I tell my students, "everything in 4G means two
                > things, except where it
                > means three!"
                >
                > So, like I said, I've learned not to reject anything
                > in 4G too quickly.
                >
                > Blessings,
                >
                > Timothy P. Jenney
                > Adj. NT Prof.,
                > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
                >
                > > From: <pastor_t@...>
                > > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                > > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:06:52 -0700
                > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple
                > >
                > > Dear J-L Listers,
                > > The silence following my article on the ointment
                > is deafening. What are
                > > you thinking?
                > >
                > > Tom Butler
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                >
                http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                > > Yahoo! Groups Links
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                > >
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                > >
                > >
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                >
                >
                >
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                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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