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Beloved Disciple

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  • Joseph Codsi
    Elaine, Thank you for the reference to Ramon Justino s thesis.
    Message 1 of 10 , Oct 11, 2005
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      Elaine,

      Thank you for the reference to Ramon Justino's thesis.

      <<The material covered by Ramon K. Jusino's thesis,
      http://www.BelovedDisciple.org and Esther de Boer's book cited in my last
      post both cover the material extensively.>>

      Unfortunately there is a problem with the link. I was unable to open the
      page.

      In what pertains to the length of the time spent in the tomb, what matters
      is not how long the body of Jesus had been in the tomb before MM would come
      to anoint it. The real problem, as I see it, is with the fact of going back
      to a tomb in order to extract a body and anoint it.

      One last question: "Where did you read that it was customary to have the
      female next of kin prepare the body of a male corps for burial?" This seems
      to me to be the product of pious thoughts, which are used to make believable
      what is unrealistic and problematic.

      Cheers,

      Joseph

      ================
      Joseph Codsi
      P.O. Box 116-2088
      Beirut, Lebanon
      Telephone (961) 1 423 145
      joseph5@...

      "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
      available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is free
      reading in libraries today."

      Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
      December 2004
    • pastor_t@pacbell.net
      Dear J-L Listers, The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are you thinking? Tom Butler
      Message 2 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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        Dear J-L Listers,
        The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
        you thinking?

        Tom Butler
      • chasrscott@netzero.com
        Tom: I liked very much what you wrote. The communion in which I serve has liturgical worship and a strong sense of tradition; so emotionally, your message
        Message 3 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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          Tom:

          I liked very much what you wrote. The communion in which I serve has liturgical worship and a strong sense of tradition; so emotionally, your message spoke to me.

          It also drove me back to the books to see what the text says, which is a good thing. I suspect others are also having another look at this event in Jesus' life.

          Thank you,

          Charles Scott

          ----------------------------
          Dear J-L Listers,
          The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
          you thinking?

          Tom Butler
        • Diane Yoder
          Your explanation seems fairly thorough. I agree with your statement: By wiping his feet with her hair, Mary not only displays her devotion to her Lord, but is
          Message 4 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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            Your explanation seems fairly thorough. I agree with your statement:

            By wiping his feet with her hair, Mary not only
            displays her devotion to her Lord, but is anointed
            herself. Her head is anointed with the same ointment
            (read: scent) as that which consecrates the feet of
            Jesus, her altar. This follows the pattern
            established in Ex. 30: 25-31 in which the same
            anointing oil used on the furnishings and utensils of
            the temple is used to consecrate the high priest and
            the chief priests.

            I submit that what Jesus instructs Judas (and the
            other disciples gathered in the house) to do is to
            allow Mary to keep the scent that identifies her with
            him. Specifically, her role, following his death,
            will be to keep the tradition of his death. She is to
            function among the disciples as a high priest, or in
            First Century terms, as a bishop, overseeing the
            community, seeing to it that the tradition is kept.


            It seems also to me one more demonstration of the fact that Mary 'gets it' while Judas (the disciple) does not.

            Diane Yoder, MA Historical Theology
            University of Toronto

            pastor_t@... wrote:
            Dear J-L Listers,
            The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
            you thinking?

            Tom Butler



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          • Timothy P. Jenney
            Tom, At first blush, I found your argument creative, but not convincing. I need to mull it over some more. However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past.
            Message 5 of 10 , Oct 14, 2005
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              Tom,

              At first blush, I found your argument creative, but not convincing. I need
              to mull it over some more.

              However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past. I've rejected some
              [apparently] wild interpretations out-of-hand, only to discover later they
              fit perfectly.

              To illustrate: Jesus in John 7: "out of his/its belly shall flow rivers of
              living water."

              Is it 1) the belly of his disciple(s)? 2) His own belly? Or 3) the belly of
              the earth [= Jerusalem]?

              "As the Scripture says" seems to refer to Zech 14 [rivers from Jerusalem],
              which turns out to have been one of the haphtaroth for the Feast
              [Tabernacles]. OK, fine, but blood and water then flow from Jesus' belly in
              ch. 19 [=libations of water and wine for Tabernacles(?), which were
              accompanied by prayers for the resurrection of the dead and the fall
              rains...] And if so, will not these rivers soon also flow from the belly of
              his followers (ch. 20)...?

              I tell my students, "everything in 4G means two things, except where it
              means three!"

              So, like I said, I've learned not to reject anything in 4G too quickly.

              Blessings,

              Timothy P. Jenney
              Adj. NT Prof.,
              Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando

              > From: <pastor_t@...>
              > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:06:52 -0700
              > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple
              >
              > Dear J-L Listers,
              > The silence following my article on the ointment is deafening. What are
              > you thinking?
              >
              > Tom Butler
              >
              >
              >
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            • deborahmillier
              ... I can readily concur. Especially in John s Gospel! Shalom from Manila, --Michael
              Message 6 of 10 , Oct 15, 2005
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                Timothy J wrote:


                > I tell my students, "everything in 4G means
                > two things, except where it means three!"

                I can readily concur. Especially in John's Gospel!

                Shalom from Manila,
                --Michael
              • Tom Butler
                Timothy, I share your respect and admiration of the depth and complexity of the 4G. My work focuses on the double layers of meaning in it. I have found that
                Message 7 of 10 , Oct 15, 2005
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                  Timothy,
                  I share your respect and admiration of the depth and
                  complexity of the 4G. My work focuses on the double
                  layers of meaning in it. I have found that the signs
                  so frequently refer noted in the Gospel are literally
                  words and symbols borrowed directly from the
                  Septuagint version of the Torah. Thus, the meaning of
                  a text may have one sense at first glance, while at
                  the same time it conveys a deeper meaning informed by
                  the Mosaic context from which the sign or signs that
                  the text contains. I believe this double (or, with
                  you, sometimes triple) entendre is a consequence of
                  the use of the Midrash method by its author(s).
                  I look forward to further discussion with you.

                  Tom Butler

                  --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
                  wrote:

                  > Tom,
                  >
                  > At first blush, I found your argument creative, but
                  > not convincing. I need
                  > to mull it over some more.
                  >
                  > However, I have been surprised by 4G in the past.
                  > I've rejected some
                  > [apparently] wild interpretations out-of-hand, only
                  > to discover later they
                  > fit perfectly.
                  >
                  > To illustrate: Jesus in John 7: "out of his/its
                  > belly shall flow rivers of
                  > living water."
                  >
                  > Is it 1) the belly of his disciple(s)? 2) His own
                  > belly? Or 3) the belly of
                  > the earth [= Jerusalem]?
                  >
                  > "As the Scripture says" seems to refer to Zech 14
                  > [rivers from Jerusalem],
                  > which turns out to have been one of the haphtaroth
                  > for the Feast
                  > [Tabernacles]. OK, fine, but blood and water then
                  > flow from Jesus' belly in
                  > ch. 19 [=libations of water and wine for
                  > Tabernacles(?), which were
                  > accompanied by prayers for the resurrection of the
                  > dead and the fall
                  > rains...] And if so, will not these rivers soon also
                  > flow from the belly of
                  > his followers (ch. 20)...?
                  >
                  > I tell my students, "everything in 4G means two
                  > things, except where it
                  > means three!"
                  >
                  > So, like I said, I've learned not to reject anything
                  > in 4G too quickly.
                  >
                  > Blessings,
                  >
                  > Timothy P. Jenney
                  > Adj. NT Prof.,
                  > Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
                  >
                  > > From: <pastor_t@...>
                  > > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  > > Date: Fri, 14 Oct 2005 09:06:52 -0700
                  > > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                  > > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Beloved Disciple
                  > >
                  > > Dear J-L Listers,
                  > > The silence following my article on the ointment
                  > is deafening. What are
                  > > you thinking?
                  > >
                  > > Tom Butler
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
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                  >
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                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
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