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Re: [John_Lit] Tom Butler's theory on the BD

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has actually been about a day and a half. If the
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
      Elaine wrote:

      >>Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on
      Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM
      appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has
      actually been about a day and a half. If the anointing
      is forbidden on the Sabbath, the next opportunity is
      the following morning. 3 day? Hmmm, how do you
      calculate that?<<

      I don't calculate at all. I merely cite in 'scare'
      quotes the traditional calculation.

      I stated that there are a lot of "gaps" in your
      argument, and you agreed:

      >>True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
      commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
      for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
      expect the person named Mary who goes to the
      tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
      who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
      possibility since the synoptics says that she went
      there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
      absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
      in 4G.<<

      If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
      then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
      logic.

      Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
      that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
      what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
      conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
      occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
      fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
      day?

      I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
      construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
      the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
      meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
      analysis.

      I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
      far.

      Jeffery Hodges

      University Degrees:

      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

      Email Address:

      jefferyhodges@...

      Blog:

      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

      Office Address:

      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Department of English Language and Literature
      Korea University
      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
      Seoul
      South Korea

      Home Address:

      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
      Sinnae-dong 795
      Jungrang-gu
      Seoul 131-770
      South Korea
    • Q Bee
      ... No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected the
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
        On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

        >>> True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
        > commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
        > for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
        > expect the person named Mary who goes to the
        > tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
        > who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
        > possibility since the synoptics says that she went
        > there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
        > absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
        > in 4G.<<
        >
        > If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
        > then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
        > logic.
        >
        No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps
        as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected
        the material and pasted it here rather than have you click on a URL?

        > Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
        > that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
        > what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
        > conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
        > occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
        > fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
        > day?
        >
        > I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
        > construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
        > the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
        > meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
        > analysis.
        >
        > I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
        > far.
        >
        Thank you for sharing your judgment.

        Elaine Bessette
        Tacoma, WA
      • Q Bee
        ... If you can show me that the corpse is indeed three days old we can go into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on Saturday, and
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
          On Oct 11, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Lee Edgar Tyler wrote:

          > Would anyone anoint a three-day-old corpse at all? Is there any other
          > evidence that such an act would be at all likely?
          >
          > Ed Tyler
          >

          If you can show me that the corpse is indeed 'three days old' we can go
          into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on
          Saturday, and Jesus' death happened shortly before sundown on the eve
          of the Passover, then before daylight on the day after passover is not
          a three day interval. The gospels seem to imply, I think, that it is
          the 'third day'. If one counts the day of death as day one, the
          Sabbath day as day two, and the pre-dawn time of the following morning
          as day three we have the context in a more reasonable interval, do we
          not? And that really only leave the Sabbath day as a day on which the
          alleged anointing cannot happen.

          Elaine Bessette
          Tacoma, WA
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          ... then you must also agree that there are jumps in your logic.
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
            I wrote:

            >>If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
            then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
            logic.<<

            Elaine wrote:

            >>No, what I did was to give you the URL where you
            could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do
            you think it would help if I collected the material
            and pasted it here rather than have you click on a
            URL?<<

            There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
            argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
            this thread.

            Elaine wrote:

            >>Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<

            You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
            gave some advice, which we're also here for.

            Jeffery Hodges

            University Degrees:

            Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
            (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
            M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
            B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

            Email Address:

            jefferyhodges@...

            Blog:

            http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

            Office Address:

            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Department of English Language and Literature
            Korea University
            136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
            Seoul
            South Korea

            Home Address:

            Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Sehan Apt. 102-2302
            Sinnae-dong 795
            Jungrang-gu
            Seoul 131-770
            South Korea
          • Q Bee
            ... Jeffrey, I ll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer s and Jusino s work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive are I
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
              On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

              > There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
              > argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
              > this thread.
              >
              > Elaine wrote:
              >
              >>> Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<
              >
              > You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
              > gave some advice, which we're also here for.
              >

              Jeffrey,

              I'll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer's
              and Jusino's work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive
              are I think adequately filled in by de Boer. It will be awhile before
              time permits. ... to be continued...

              Elaine Bessette
              Tacoma, WA
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              ... Just for the record, it s Jeffery -- to keep me distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey Gibson. Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D.,
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                Elaine wrote:

                >>Jeffrey<<

                Just for the record, it's "Jeffery" -- to keep me
                distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey
                Gibson.

                Jeffery Hodges

                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Department of English Language and Literature
                Korea University
                136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                Seoul
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                Sinnae-dong 795
                Jungrang-gu
                Seoul 131-770
                South Korea
              • Joseph Codsi
                In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                  In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:

                  <<If this trip to the tomb were not meant to be an attempt to fulfill the
                  customary anointing carried out by the female 'next of kin' we then have a
                  new problem in the inconsistency of the previous mention of the substance
                  being saved for the burial.>>

                  This implies that it was customary in the Jewish society of that time to
                  have the female next of kin anoint the body of a man. Is there any evidence
                  to this kind of custom?

                  I have a problem with the second part of the statement. Where is it said in
                  GJohn that the Mary who anointed the feet of Jesus saved a large amount of
                  aromatic oil for the real burial of Jesus? Am I missing something here?

                  Cheers,

                  Joseph

                  ================
                  Joseph Codsi
                  P.O. Box 116-2088
                  Beirut, Lebanon
                  Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                  joseph5@...

                  "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                  available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is free
                  reading in libraries today."

                  Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
                  December 2004
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