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Re: [John_Lit] Tom Butler's theory on the BD

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  • Q Bee
    ... Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
      On Oct 11, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

      > Elaine wrote:
      >
      >>> True, it is not state baldly in 4G as it is in the
      > synoptics, however, if a 'Mary' has been announced as
      > the one to keep the nard for Jesus' burial only nine
      > days before is there a need to specify her purpose for
      > going to the tomb?<<
      >
      > Your argument is:
      >
      > 1. Mary of Bethany/Magdalene breaks open a bottle of
      > nard and anoints Jesus's feet with it about one week
      > before the resurrection. (All of it?)
      >
      > 2. Jesus says that she had saved this for the day of
      > his burial. (Metaphor?)
      >
      > 3. Therefore she goes to the grave 'three' days after
      > his burial to anoint his corpse. (Hasty conclusion?)
      >
      Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on Friday and that
      Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the
      Sunday. It has actually been about a day and a half. If the anointing
      is forbidden on the Sabbath, the next opportunity is the following
      morning. 3 day? Hmmm, how do you calculate that?

      > There are a lot of gaps in this argument that would
      > need to be filled in to make the argument that she's
      > going to the tomb to anoint the corpse of Jesus.
      >
      True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is commissioned in
      chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing for Jesus' burial. Where is
      there a jump in logic to expect the person named Mary who goes to the
      tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one who intends to
      anoint? There is at least a distinct possibility since the synoptics
      says that she went there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
      absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint in 4G.

      Elaine Bessette
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has actually been about a day and a half. If the
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
        Elaine wrote:

        >>Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on
        Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM
        appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has
        actually been about a day and a half. If the anointing
        is forbidden on the Sabbath, the next opportunity is
        the following morning. 3 day? Hmmm, how do you
        calculate that?<<

        I don't calculate at all. I merely cite in 'scare'
        quotes the traditional calculation.

        I stated that there are a lot of "gaps" in your
        argument, and you agreed:

        >>True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
        commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
        for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
        expect the person named Mary who goes to the
        tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
        who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
        possibility since the synoptics says that she went
        there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
        absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
        in 4G.<<

        If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
        then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
        logic.

        Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
        that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
        what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
        conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
        occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
        fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
        day?

        I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
        construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
        the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
        meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
        analysis.

        I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
        far.

        Jeffery Hodges

        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea
      • Q Bee
        ... No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
          On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

          >>> True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
          > commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
          > for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
          > expect the person named Mary who goes to the
          > tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
          > who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
          > possibility since the synoptics says that she went
          > there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
          > absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
          > in 4G.<<
          >
          > If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
          > then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
          > logic.
          >
          No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps
          as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected
          the material and pasted it here rather than have you click on a URL?

          > Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
          > that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
          > what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
          > conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
          > occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
          > fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
          > day?
          >
          > I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
          > construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
          > the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
          > meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
          > analysis.
          >
          > I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
          > far.
          >
          Thank you for sharing your judgment.

          Elaine Bessette
          Tacoma, WA
        • Q Bee
          ... If you can show me that the corpse is indeed three days old we can go into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on Saturday, and
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
            On Oct 11, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Lee Edgar Tyler wrote:

            > Would anyone anoint a three-day-old corpse at all? Is there any other
            > evidence that such an act would be at all likely?
            >
            > Ed Tyler
            >

            If you can show me that the corpse is indeed 'three days old' we can go
            into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on
            Saturday, and Jesus' death happened shortly before sundown on the eve
            of the Passover, then before daylight on the day after passover is not
            a three day interval. The gospels seem to imply, I think, that it is
            the 'third day'. If one counts the day of death as day one, the
            Sabbath day as day two, and the pre-dawn time of the following morning
            as day three we have the context in a more reasonable interval, do we
            not? And that really only leave the Sabbath day as a day on which the
            alleged anointing cannot happen.

            Elaine Bessette
            Tacoma, WA
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            ... then you must also agree that there are jumps in your logic.
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
              I wrote:

              >>If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
              then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
              logic.<<

              Elaine wrote:

              >>No, what I did was to give you the URL where you
              could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do
              you think it would help if I collected the material
              and pasted it here rather than have you click on a
              URL?<<

              There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
              argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
              this thread.

              Elaine wrote:

              >>Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<

              You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
              gave some advice, which we're also here for.

              Jeffery Hodges

              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              Sinnae-dong 795
              Jungrang-gu
              Seoul 131-770
              South Korea
            • Q Bee
              ... Jeffrey, I ll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer s and Jusino s work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive are I
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                > There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
                > argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
                > this thread.
                >
                > Elaine wrote:
                >
                >>> Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<
                >
                > You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
                > gave some advice, which we're also here for.
                >

                Jeffrey,

                I'll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer's
                and Jusino's work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive
                are I think adequately filled in by de Boer. It will be awhile before
                time permits. ... to be continued...

                Elaine Bessette
                Tacoma, WA
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                ... Just for the record, it s Jeffery -- to keep me distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey Gibson. Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D.,
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                  Elaine wrote:

                  >>Jeffrey<<

                  Just for the record, it's "Jeffery" -- to keep me
                  distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey
                  Gibson.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  University Degrees:

                  Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                  M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                  Email Address:

                  jefferyhodges@...

                  Blog:

                  http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                  Office Address:

                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Department of English Language and Literature
                  Korea University
                  136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                  Seoul
                  South Korea

                  Home Address:

                  Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                  Sinnae-dong 795
                  Jungrang-gu
                  Seoul 131-770
                  South Korea
                • Joseph Codsi
                  In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                    In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:

                    <<If this trip to the tomb were not meant to be an attempt to fulfill the
                    customary anointing carried out by the female 'next of kin' we then have a
                    new problem in the inconsistency of the previous mention of the substance
                    being saved for the burial.>>

                    This implies that it was customary in the Jewish society of that time to
                    have the female next of kin anoint the body of a man. Is there any evidence
                    to this kind of custom?

                    I have a problem with the second part of the statement. Where is it said in
                    GJohn that the Mary who anointed the feet of Jesus saved a large amount of
                    aromatic oil for the real burial of Jesus? Am I missing something here?

                    Cheers,

                    Joseph

                    ================
                    Joseph Codsi
                    P.O. Box 116-2088
                    Beirut, Lebanon
                    Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                    joseph5@...

                    "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                    available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is free
                    reading in libraries today."

                    Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
                    December 2004
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