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Re: [John_Lit] Tom Butler's theory on the BD

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  • Lee Edgar Tyler
    ... From: Horace Jeffery Hodges To: Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:58 PM Subject: Re:
    Message 1 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Horace Jeffery Hodges" <jefferyhodges@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, October 11, 2005 1:58 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Tom Butler's theory on the BD


      > Elaine wrote:
      >
      >>>True, it is not state baldly in 4G as it is in the
      > synoptics, however, if a 'Mary' has been announced as
      > the one to keep the nard for Jesus' burial only nine
      > days before is there a need to specify her purpose for
      > going to the tomb?<<
      >
      > Your argument is:
      >
      > 1. Mary of Bethany/Magdalene breaks open a bottle of
      > nard and anoints Jesus's feet with it about one week
      > before the resurrection. (All of it?)
      >
      > 2. Jesus says that she had saved this for the day of
      > his burial. (Metaphor?)
      >
      > 3. Therefore she goes to the grave 'three' days after
      > his burial to anoint his corpse. (Hasty conclusion?)
      >
      > There are a lot of gaps in this argument that would
      > need to be filled in to make the argument that she's
      > going to the tomb to anoint the corpse of Jesus.
      >
      > Jeffery Hodges
      >
      >
      Would anyone anoint a three-day-old corpse at all? Is there any other
      evidence that such an act would be at all likely?

      Ed Tyler
    • Q Bee
      ... Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has
      Message 2 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
        On Oct 11, 2005, at 11:58 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

        > Elaine wrote:
        >
        >>> True, it is not state baldly in 4G as it is in the
        > synoptics, however, if a 'Mary' has been announced as
        > the one to keep the nard for Jesus' burial only nine
        > days before is there a need to specify her purpose for
        > going to the tomb?<<
        >
        > Your argument is:
        >
        > 1. Mary of Bethany/Magdalene breaks open a bottle of
        > nard and anoints Jesus's feet with it about one week
        > before the resurrection. (All of it?)
        >
        > 2. Jesus says that she had saved this for the day of
        > his burial. (Metaphor?)
        >
        > 3. Therefore she goes to the grave 'three' days after
        > his burial to anoint his corpse. (Hasty conclusion?)
        >
        Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on Friday and that
        Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the
        Sunday. It has actually been about a day and a half. If the anointing
        is forbidden on the Sabbath, the next opportunity is the following
        morning. 3 day? Hmmm, how do you calculate that?

        > There are a lot of gaps in this argument that would
        > need to be filled in to make the argument that she's
        > going to the tomb to anoint the corpse of Jesus.
        >
        True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is commissioned in
        chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing for Jesus' burial. Where is
        there a jump in logic to expect the person named Mary who goes to the
        tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one who intends to
        anoint? There is at least a distinct possibility since the synoptics
        says that she went there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
        absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint in 4G.

        Elaine Bessette
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        ... Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has actually been about a day and a half. If the
        Message 3 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
          Elaine wrote:

          >>Assuming that the death occurred in the afternoon on
          Friday and that Saturday was the Sabbath day, MM
          appears early, before daylight on the Sunday. It has
          actually been about a day and a half. If the anointing
          is forbidden on the Sabbath, the next opportunity is
          the following morning. 3 day? Hmmm, how do you
          calculate that?<<

          I don't calculate at all. I merely cite in 'scare'
          quotes the traditional calculation.

          I stated that there are a lot of "gaps" in your
          argument, and you agreed:

          >>True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
          commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
          for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
          expect the person named Mary who goes to the
          tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
          who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
          possibility since the synoptics says that she went
          there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
          absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
          in 4G.<<

          If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
          then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
          logic.

          Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
          that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
          what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
          conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
          occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
          fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
          day?

          I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
          construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
          the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
          meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
          analysis.

          I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
          far.

          Jeffery Hodges

          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea
        • Q Bee
          ... No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected the
          Message 4 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
            On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:23 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

            >>> True. Still, someone with the first name of Mary is
            > commissioned in chapter 12 to accomplish an anointing
            > for Jesus' burial. Where is there a jump in logic to
            > expect the person named Mary who goes to the
            > tomb at the earliest opportunity to be other than one
            > who intends to anoint? There is at least a distinct
            > possibility since the synoptics says that she went
            > there to anoint, although that doesn't explain the
            > absence of a clear description of her intent to anoint
            > in 4G.<<
            >
            > If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
            > then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
            > logic.
            >
            No, what I did was to give you the URL where you could fill in the gaps
            as well as a book reference. Do you think it would help if I collected
            the material and pasted it here rather than have you click on a URL?

            > Anyway, the crucial point in your passage above is
            > that Mary was "commissioned" to anoint Jesus, but on
            > what basis do you conclude this? And even if you could
            > conclude this, and conclude that the commission was to
            > occur on the day of Jesus's burial, then how would you
            > fit this with Mary going to the tomb on a different
            > day?
            >
            > I find your argument too loose to be convincing. To
            > construct a tighter argument, you'd need to look at
            > the specific words, citing the Greek terms and their
            > meanings, and base your conclusions on careful
            > analysis.
            >
            > I think that you've mainly done a loose eisegesis so
            > far.
            >
            Thank you for sharing your judgment.

            Elaine Bessette
            Tacoma, WA
          • Q Bee
            ... If you can show me that the corpse is indeed three days old we can go into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on Saturday, and
            Message 5 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
              On Oct 11, 2005, at 12:22 PM, Lee Edgar Tyler wrote:

              > Would anyone anoint a three-day-old corpse at all? Is there any other
              > evidence that such an act would be at all likely?
              >
              > Ed Tyler
              >

              If you can show me that the corpse is indeed 'three days old' we can go
              into this further. If, as we have been told, the Passover was on
              Saturday, and Jesus' death happened shortly before sundown on the eve
              of the Passover, then before daylight on the day after passover is not
              a three day interval. The gospels seem to imply, I think, that it is
              the 'third day'. If one counts the day of death as day one, the
              Sabbath day as day two, and the pre-dawn time of the following morning
              as day three we have the context in a more reasonable interval, do we
              not? And that really only leave the Sabbath day as a day on which the
              alleged anointing cannot happen.

              Elaine Bessette
              Tacoma, WA
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              ... then you must also agree that there are jumps in your logic.
              Message 6 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                I wrote:

                >>If you agree that there are gaps in your argument,
                then you must also agree that there are jumps in your
                logic.<<

                Elaine wrote:

                >>No, what I did was to give you the URL where you
                could fill in the gaps as well as a book reference. Do
                you think it would help if I collected the material
                and pasted it here rather than have you click on a
                URL?<<

                There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
                argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
                this thread.

                Elaine wrote:

                >>Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<

                You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
                gave some advice, which we're also here for.

                Jeffery Hodges

                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Department of English Language and Literature
                Korea University
                136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                Seoul
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                Sinnae-dong 795
                Jungrang-gu
                Seoul 131-770
                South Korea
              • Q Bee
                ... Jeffrey, I ll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer s and Jusino s work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive are I
                Message 7 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                  On Oct 11, 2005, at 1:57 PM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                  > There were jumps in your logic as presented in your
                  > argument. It's up to you to fill them in for others on
                  > this thread.
                  >
                  > Elaine wrote:
                  >
                  >>> Thank you for sharing your judgment.<<
                  >
                  > You're welcome. That's what we're here for. I also
                  > gave some advice, which we're also here for.
                  >

                  Jeffrey,

                  I'll work on gathering some of the pertinent passages from de Boer's
                  and Jusino's work and post it as time permits. The gaps you perceive
                  are I think adequately filled in by de Boer. It will be awhile before
                  time permits. ... to be continued...

                  Elaine Bessette
                  Tacoma, WA
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  ... Just for the record, it s Jeffery -- to keep me distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey Gibson. Jeffery Hodges University Degrees: Ph.D.,
                  Message 8 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                    Elaine wrote:

                    >>Jeffrey<<

                    Just for the record, it's "Jeffery" -- to keep me
                    distinguished from the more distinguished Jeffrey
                    Gibson.

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    University Degrees:

                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                    (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                    Email Address:

                    jefferyhodges@...

                    Blog:

                    http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                    Office Address:

                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Department of English Language and Literature
                    Korea University
                    136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                    Seoul
                    South Korea

                    Home Address:

                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                    Sinnae-dong 795
                    Jungrang-gu
                    Seoul 131-770
                    South Korea
                  • Joseph Codsi
                    In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:
                    Message 9 of 12 , Oct 11, 2005
                      In her reply to Michael S. Tibbs, Elaine Bessette made the following remark:

                      <<If this trip to the tomb were not meant to be an attempt to fulfill the
                      customary anointing carried out by the female 'next of kin' we then have a
                      new problem in the inconsistency of the previous mention of the substance
                      being saved for the burial.>>

                      This implies that it was customary in the Jewish society of that time to
                      have the female next of kin anoint the body of a man. Is there any evidence
                      to this kind of custom?

                      I have a problem with the second part of the statement. Where is it said in
                      GJohn that the Mary who anointed the feet of Jesus saved a large amount of
                      aromatic oil for the real burial of Jesus? Am I missing something here?

                      Cheers,

                      Joseph

                      ================
                      Joseph Codsi
                      P.O. Box 116-2088
                      Beirut, Lebanon
                      Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                      joseph5@...

                      "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                      available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is free
                      reading in libraries today."

                      Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
                      December 2004
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