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Re: [John_Lit] Paraclete

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  • deborahmillier
    ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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      Elaine wrote:

      > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
      should be
      > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
      saying), ...

      We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
      Elaine?


      > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
      as 'kingdom', but
      > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
      a
      > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
      individuals.

      Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
      means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
      sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
      dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

      Shalom from Manila,
      --Michael Millier
    • Q Bee
      ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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        On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

        > Elaine wrote:
        >
        >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
        > should be
        >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
        > saying), ...
        >
        > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
        > Elaine?
        >
        I didn't say that we shouldn't.

        >
        >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
        > as 'kingdom', but
        >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
        > a
        >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
        > individuals.
        >
        > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
        > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
        > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
        > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
        >
        The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
        Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
        within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

        Peace from Tacoma,

        Elaine
      • Tom Butler
        Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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          Bob,
          I think you are asking the right question. Why the
          translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
          as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
          understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
          term.
          I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
          partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
          comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
          largely because I see the relevance between the
          Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
          associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
          49.
          The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
          the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
          of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
          conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
          Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
          body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
          Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
          to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
          I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
          this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
          end without dipping my toe into it.

          Yours in Christ's service,
          Tom Butler


          --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

          > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
          > "Comforter"?
          >
          > The translators of some versions of John use
          > comforter, why?
          > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
          > along
          > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
          > might
          > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
          > archetype as
          > rebuilder of the temple?
          >
          > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
          > on
          > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
          > there is an
          > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
          > this
          > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
          > the
          > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
          > righteousness
          > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
          > word might
          > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
          > to my
          > initial question - what relationship does it have to
          > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
          >
          > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
          > here,
          > with an Author or author stretching for language to
          > express
          > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
          >
          > reaching...
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > Bob MacDonald
          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
          >
          > Catch the foxes for us,
          > the little foxes that make havoc of the
          > vineyards,
          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        • Bob MacDonald
          Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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            Bravo Tom

            Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
            and you found it again.

            I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
            paraclete and naham.

            What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
            repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
            both seems to be spelt the same!)

            And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
            world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
            're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
            Victoria, B.C., Canada

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



            -----Original Message-----
            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
            Tom Butler
            Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


            Bob,
            I think you are asking the right question. Why the
            translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
            as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
            understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
            term.
            I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
            partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
            comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
            largely because I see the relevance between the
            Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
            associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
            49.
            The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
            the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
            of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
            conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
            Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
            body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
            Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
            to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
            I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
            this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
            end without dipping my toe into it.

            Yours in Christ's service,
            Tom Butler


            --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

            > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
            > "Comforter"?
            >
            > The translators of some versions of John use
            > comforter, why?
            > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
            > along
            > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
            > might
            > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
            > archetype as
            > rebuilder of the temple?
            >
            > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
            > on
            > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
            > there is an
            > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
            > this
            > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
            > the
            > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
            > righteousness
            > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
            > word might
            > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
            > to my
            > initial question - what relationship does it have to
            > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
            >
            > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
            > here,
            > with an Author or author stretching for language to
            > express
            > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
            >
            > reaching...
            >
            > Bob
            >
            > Bob MacDonald
            > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
            > Victoria, B.C., Canada
            >
            > Catch the foxes for us,
            > the little foxes that make havoc of the
            > vineyards,
            > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
            Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
            Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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