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Re: [John_Lit] Paraclete

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  • Q Bee
    On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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      On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

      (snip)

      > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
      > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

      > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
      > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
      > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
      > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
      > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
      > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
      >
      From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
      dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
      can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
      is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
      'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
      Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

      First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
      come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
      returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
      original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
      unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
      ________________

      This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
      about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
      might have been in the original language for the following:
      1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
      20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
      20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
      21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

      Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
      final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
      turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
      disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

      I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
      the passage quoted.

      Peace,

      Elaine

      Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
      Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
      of the New Order of Glastonbury
      Tacoma, WA
    • deborahmillier
      ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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        Elaine wrote:

        > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
        should be
        > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
        saying), ...

        We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
        Elaine?


        > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
        as 'kingdom', but
        > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
        a
        > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
        individuals.

        Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
        means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
        sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
        dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

        Shalom from Manila,
        --Michael Millier
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        ... another sign? :)
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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          Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

          >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
          another sign? :)<<

          Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
          for signs.

          The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
          of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
          something, anyway.

          I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
          didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
          posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
          see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
          posted once.

          Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
          times more.

          Let's see what happens to this one.

          Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
          Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
          thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
          hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

          Jeffery Hodges

          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea
        • Q Bee
          ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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            On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

            > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
            >
            > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
            > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
            > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
            > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
            >
            "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
            defendant.

            NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
            advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
            sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
            terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
            spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
            of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
            is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
            represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
            returned to the Father.

            Elaine

            Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
            Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
            of the New Order of Glastonbury
            Tacoma, WA
          • Q Bee
            ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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              On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

              > Elaine wrote:
              >
              >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
              > should be
              >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
              > saying), ...
              >
              > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
              > Elaine?
              >
              I didn't say that we shouldn't.

              >
              >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
              > as 'kingdom', but
              >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
              > a
              >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
              > individuals.
              >
              > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
              > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
              > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
              > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
              >
              The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
              Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
              within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

              Peace from Tacoma,

              Elaine
            • Tom Butler
              Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                Bob,
                I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                term.
                I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                largely because I see the relevance between the
                Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                49.
                The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                end without dipping my toe into it.

                Yours in Christ's service,
                Tom Butler


                --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                > "Comforter"?
                >
                > The translators of some versions of John use
                > comforter, why?
                > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                > along
                > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                > might
                > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                > archetype as
                > rebuilder of the temple?
                >
                > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                > on
                > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                > there is an
                > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                > this
                > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                > the
                > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                > righteousness
                > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                > word might
                > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                > to my
                > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                >
                > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                > here,
                > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                > express
                > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                >
                > reaching...
                >
                > Bob
                >
                > Bob MacDonald
                > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                >
                > Catch the foxes for us,
                > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                > vineyards,
                > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
              • Bob MacDonald
                Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                  Bravo Tom

                  Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                  and you found it again.

                  I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                  paraclete and naham.

                  What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                  repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                  both seems to be spelt the same!)

                  And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                  world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                  're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                  Bob

                  Bob MacDonald
                  http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                  Victoria, B.C., Canada

                  Catch the foxes for us,
                  the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                  for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                  Tom Butler
                  Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                  To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                  Bob,
                  I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                  translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                  as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                  understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                  term.
                  I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                  partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                  comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                  largely because I see the relevance between the
                  Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                  associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                  49.
                  The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                  the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                  of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                  conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                  Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                  body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                  Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                  to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                  I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                  this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                  end without dipping my toe into it.

                  Yours in Christ's service,
                  Tom Butler


                  --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                  > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                  > "Comforter"?
                  >
                  > The translators of some versions of John use
                  > comforter, why?
                  > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                  > along
                  > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                  > might
                  > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                  > archetype as
                  > rebuilder of the temple?
                  >
                  > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                  > on
                  > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                  > there is an
                  > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                  > this
                  > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                  > the
                  > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                  > righteousness
                  > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                  > word might
                  > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                  > to my
                  > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                  > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                  >
                  > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                  > here,
                  > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                  > express
                  > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                  >
                  > reaching...
                  >
                  > Bob
                  >
                  > Bob MacDonald
                  > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                  > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                  >
                  > Catch the foxes for us,
                  > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                  > vineyards,
                  > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                  Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                  Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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