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Re: [John_Lit] Paraclete (Posting Again)

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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      Bob MacDonald wrote:

      >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
      the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
      like).<<

      I take it that your query concerns the role of the
      Paraclete as "Comforter."

      But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

      Jeffery Hodges

      University Degrees:

      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

      Email Address:

      jefferyhodges@...

      Blog:

      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

      Office Address:

      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Department of English Language and Literature
      Korea University
      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
      Seoul
      South Korea

      Home Address:

      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
      Sinnae-dong 795
      Jungrang-gu
      Seoul 131-770
      South Korea
    • Bob MacDonald
      HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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        HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

        The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
        Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
        side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
        imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
        rebuilder of the temple?

        Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
        Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
        English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
        word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
        Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
        and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
        mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
        initial question - what relationship does it have to
        repentance for Jew or Gentile.

        I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
        with an Author or author stretching for language to express
        and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

        reaching...

        Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
        sign? :)

        Bob

        Bob MacDonald
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        Victoria, B.C., Canada

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      • Q Bee
        On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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          On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

          (snip)

          > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
          > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

          > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
          > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
          > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
          > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
          > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
          > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
          >
          From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
          dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
          can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
          is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
          'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
          Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

          First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
          come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
          returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
          original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
          unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
          ________________

          This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
          about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
          might have been in the original language for the following:
          1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
          20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
          20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
          21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

          Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
          final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
          turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
          disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

          I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
          the passage quoted.

          Peace,

          Elaine

          Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
          Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
          of the New Order of Glastonbury
          Tacoma, WA
        • deborahmillier
          ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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            Elaine wrote:

            > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
            should be
            > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
            saying), ...

            We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
            Elaine?


            > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
            as 'kingdom', but
            > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
            a
            > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
            individuals.

            Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
            means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
            sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
            dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

            Shalom from Manila,
            --Michael Millier
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            ... another sign? :)
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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              Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

              >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
              another sign? :)<<

              Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
              for signs.

              The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
              of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
              something, anyway.

              I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
              didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
              posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
              see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
              posted once.

              Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
              times more.

              Let's see what happens to this one.

              Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
              Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
              thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
              hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

              Jeffery Hodges

              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              Sinnae-dong 795
              Jungrang-gu
              Seoul 131-770
              South Korea
            • Q Bee
              ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                >
                > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                >
                "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                defendant.

                NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                returned to the Father.

                Elaine

                Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                of the New Order of Glastonbury
                Tacoma, WA
              • Q Bee
                ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                  On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                  > Elaine wrote:
                  >
                  >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                  > should be
                  >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                  > saying), ...
                  >
                  > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                  > Elaine?
                  >
                  I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                  >
                  >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                  > as 'kingdom', but
                  >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                  > a
                  >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                  > individuals.
                  >
                  > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                  > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                  > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                  > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                  >
                  The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                  Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                  within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                  Peace from Tacoma,

                  Elaine
                • Tom Butler
                  Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                    Bob,
                    I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                    translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                    as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                    understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                    term.
                    I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                    partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                    comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                    largely because I see the relevance between the
                    Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                    associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                    49.
                    The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                    the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                    of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                    conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                    Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                    body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                    Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                    to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                    I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                    this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                    end without dipping my toe into it.

                    Yours in Christ's service,
                    Tom Butler


                    --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                    > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                    > "Comforter"?
                    >
                    > The translators of some versions of John use
                    > comforter, why?
                    > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                    > along
                    > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                    > might
                    > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                    > archetype as
                    > rebuilder of the temple?
                    >
                    > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                    > on
                    > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                    > there is an
                    > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                    > this
                    > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                    > the
                    > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                    > righteousness
                    > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                    > word might
                    > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                    > to my
                    > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                    > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                    >
                    > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                    > here,
                    > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                    > express
                    > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                    >
                    > reaching...
                    >
                    > Bob
                    >
                    > Bob MacDonald
                    > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                    > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                    >
                    > Catch the foxes for us,
                    > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                    > vineyards,
                    > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  • Bob MacDonald
                    Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                      Bravo Tom

                      Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                      and you found it again.

                      I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                      paraclete and naham.

                      What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                      repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                      both seems to be spelt the same!)

                      And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                      world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                      're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                      Bob

                      Bob MacDonald
                      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                      Victoria, B.C., Canada

                      Catch the foxes for us,
                      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                      Tom Butler
                      Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                      Bob,
                      I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                      translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                      as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                      understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                      term.
                      I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                      partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                      comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                      largely because I see the relevance between the
                      Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                      associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                      49.
                      The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                      the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                      of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                      conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                      Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                      body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                      Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                      to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                      I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                      this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                      end without dipping my toe into it.

                      Yours in Christ's service,
                      Tom Butler


                      --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                      > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                      > "Comforter"?
                      >
                      > The translators of some versions of John use
                      > comforter, why?
                      > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                      > along
                      > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                      > might
                      > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                      > archetype as
                      > rebuilder of the temple?
                      >
                      > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                      > on
                      > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                      > there is an
                      > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                      > this
                      > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                      > the
                      > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                      > righteousness
                      > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                      > word might
                      > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                      > to my
                      > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                      > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                      >
                      > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                      > here,
                      > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                      > express
                      > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                      >
                      > reaching...
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > Bob MacDonald
                      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                      >
                      > Catch the foxes for us,
                      > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                      > vineyards,
                      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                      Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                      Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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