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Re: [John_Lit] Paraclete

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  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
    ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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      Bob MacDonald wrote:

      >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
      the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
      like).<<

      I take it that your query concerns the role of the
      Paraclete as "Comforter."

      But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

      Jeffery Hodges

      University Degrees:

      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

      Email Address:

      jefferyhodges@...

      Blog:

      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

      Office Address:

      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Department of English Language and Literature
      Korea University
      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
      Seoul
      South Korea

      Home Address:

      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
      Sinnae-dong 795
      Jungrang-gu
      Seoul 131-770
      South Korea
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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        Bob MacDonald wrote:

        >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
        the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
        like).<<

        I take it that your query concerns the role of the
        Paraclete as "Comforter."

        But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

        Jeffery Hodges

        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea
      • Bob MacDonald
        HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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          HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

          The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
          Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
          side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
          imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
          rebuilder of the temple?

          Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
          Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
          English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
          word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
          Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
          and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
          mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
          initial question - what relationship does it have to
          repentance for Jew or Gentile.

          I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
          with an Author or author stretching for language to express
          and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

          reaching...

          Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
          sign? :)

          Bob

          Bob MacDonald
          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          Victoria, B.C., Canada

          Catch the foxes for us,
          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
        • Q Bee
          On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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            On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

            (snip)

            > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
            > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

            > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
            > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
            > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
            > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
            > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
            > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
            >
            From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
            dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
            can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
            is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
            'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
            Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

            First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
            come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
            returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
            original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
            unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
            ________________

            This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
            about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
            might have been in the original language for the following:
            1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
            20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
            20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
            21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

            Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
            final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
            turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
            disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

            I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
            the passage quoted.

            Peace,

            Elaine

            Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
            Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
            of the New Order of Glastonbury
            Tacoma, WA
          • deborahmillier
            ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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              Elaine wrote:

              > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
              should be
              > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
              saying), ...

              We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
              Elaine?


              > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
              as 'kingdom', but
              > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
              a
              > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
              individuals.

              Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
              means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
              sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
              dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

              Shalom from Manila,
              --Michael Millier
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              ... another sign? :)
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                another sign? :)<<

                Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                for signs.

                The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                something, anyway.

                I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                posted once.

                Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                times more.

                Let's see what happens to this one.

                Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                Jeffery Hodges

                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Department of English Language and Literature
                Korea University
                136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                Seoul
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                Sinnae-dong 795
                Jungrang-gu
                Seoul 131-770
                South Korea
              • Q Bee
                ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                  On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                  > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                  > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                  > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                  > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                  >
                  "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                  defendant.

                  NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                  advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                  sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                  terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                  spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                  of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                  is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                  represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                  returned to the Father.

                  Elaine

                  Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                  Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                  of the New Order of Glastonbury
                  Tacoma, WA
                • Q Bee
                  ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                    On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                    > Elaine wrote:
                    >
                    >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                    > should be
                    >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                    > saying), ...
                    >
                    > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                    > Elaine?
                    >
                    I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                    >
                    >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                    > as 'kingdom', but
                    >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                    > a
                    >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                    > individuals.
                    >
                    > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                    > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                    > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                    > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                    >
                    The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                    Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                    within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                    Peace from Tacoma,

                    Elaine
                  • Tom Butler
                    Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                      Bob,
                      I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                      translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                      as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                      understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                      term.
                      I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                      partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                      comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                      largely because I see the relevance between the
                      Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                      associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                      49.
                      The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                      the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                      of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                      conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                      Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                      body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                      Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                      to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                      I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                      this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                      end without dipping my toe into it.

                      Yours in Christ's service,
                      Tom Butler


                      --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                      > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                      > "Comforter"?
                      >
                      > The translators of some versions of John use
                      > comforter, why?
                      > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                      > along
                      > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                      > might
                      > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                      > archetype as
                      > rebuilder of the temple?
                      >
                      > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                      > on
                      > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                      > there is an
                      > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                      > this
                      > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                      > the
                      > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                      > righteousness
                      > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                      > word might
                      > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                      > to my
                      > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                      > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                      >
                      > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                      > here,
                      > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                      > express
                      > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                      >
                      > reaching...
                      >
                      > Bob
                      >
                      > Bob MacDonald
                      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                      >
                      > Catch the foxes for us,
                      > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                      > vineyards,
                      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    • Bob MacDonald
                      Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                        Bravo Tom

                        Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                        and you found it again.

                        I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                        paraclete and naham.

                        What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                        repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                        both seems to be spelt the same!)

                        And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                        world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                        're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                        Bob

                        Bob MacDonald
                        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                        Victoria, B.C., Canada

                        Catch the foxes for us,
                        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                        -----Original Message-----
                        From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                        Tom Butler
                        Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                        To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                        Bob,
                        I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                        translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                        as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                        understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                        term.
                        I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                        partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                        comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                        largely because I see the relevance between the
                        Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                        associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                        49.
                        The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                        the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                        of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                        conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                        Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                        body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                        Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                        to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                        I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                        this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                        end without dipping my toe into it.

                        Yours in Christ's service,
                        Tom Butler


                        --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                        > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                        > "Comforter"?
                        >
                        > The translators of some versions of John use
                        > comforter, why?
                        > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                        > along
                        > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                        > might
                        > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                        > archetype as
                        > rebuilder of the temple?
                        >
                        > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                        > on
                        > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                        > there is an
                        > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                        > this
                        > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                        > the
                        > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                        > righteousness
                        > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                        > word might
                        > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                        > to my
                        > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                        > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                        >
                        > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                        > here,
                        > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                        > express
                        > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                        >
                        > reaching...
                        >
                        > Bob
                        >
                        > Bob MacDonald
                        > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                        > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                        >
                        > Catch the foxes for us,
                        > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                        > vineyards,
                        > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                        Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                        Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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