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Paraclete

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  • Bob MacDonald
    Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
    Message 1 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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      Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
      Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
      John’s words for repentance concludes with:

      “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
      the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
      for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

      In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
      metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
      of repent, regret or remorse.“

      <<much snipped>>

      What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
      repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

      It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
      there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
      of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
      re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
      Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
      about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

      Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
      idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

      Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
      repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
      teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

      thanks

      Bob

      Bob MacDonald
      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      Victoria, B.C., Canada

      Catch the foxes for us,
      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
      ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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        Bob MacDonald wrote:

        >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
        the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
        like).<<

        I take it that your query concerns the role of the
        Paraclete as "Comforter."

        But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

        Jeffery Hodges

        University Degrees:

        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

        Email Address:

        jefferyhodges@...

        Blog:

        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

        Office Address:

        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Department of English Language and Literature
        Korea University
        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
        Seoul
        South Korea

        Home Address:

        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
        Sinnae-dong 795
        Jungrang-gu
        Seoul 131-770
        South Korea
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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          Bob MacDonald wrote:

          >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
          the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
          like).<<

          I take it that your query concerns the role of the
          Paraclete as "Comforter."

          But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

          Jeffery Hodges

          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea
        • Bob MacDonald
          HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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            HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

            The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
            Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
            side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
            imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
            rebuilder of the temple?

            Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
            Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
            English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
            word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
            Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
            and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
            mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
            initial question - what relationship does it have to
            repentance for Jew or Gentile.

            I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
            with an Author or author stretching for language to express
            and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

            reaching...

            Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
            sign? :)

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
            Victoria, B.C., Canada

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          • Q Bee
            On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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              On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

              (snip)

              > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
              > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

              > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
              > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
              > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
              > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
              > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
              > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
              >
              From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
              dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
              can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
              is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
              'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
              Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

              First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
              come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
              returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
              original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
              unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
              ________________

              This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
              about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
              might have been in the original language for the following:
              1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
              20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
              20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
              21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

              Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
              final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
              turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
              disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

              I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
              the passage quoted.

              Peace,

              Elaine

              Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
              Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
              of the New Order of Glastonbury
              Tacoma, WA
            • deborahmillier
              ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                Elaine wrote:

                > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                should be
                > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                saying), ...

                We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                Elaine?


                > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                as 'kingdom', but
                > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                a
                > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                individuals.

                Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                Shalom from Manila,
                --Michael Millier
              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                ... another sign? :)
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                  Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                  >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                  another sign? :)<<

                  Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                  for signs.

                  The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                  of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                  something, anyway.

                  I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                  didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                  posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                  see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                  posted once.

                  Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                  times more.

                  Let's see what happens to this one.

                  Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                  Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                  thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                  hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                  Jeffery Hodges

                  University Degrees:

                  Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                  (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                  M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                  B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                  Email Address:

                  jefferyhodges@...

                  Blog:

                  http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                  Office Address:

                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Department of English Language and Literature
                  Korea University
                  136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                  Seoul
                  South Korea

                  Home Address:

                  Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                  Sinnae-dong 795
                  Jungrang-gu
                  Seoul 131-770
                  South Korea
                • Q Bee
                  ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                    On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                    > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                    > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                    > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                    > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                    >
                    "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                    defendant.

                    NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                    advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                    sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                    terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                    spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                    of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                    is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                    represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                    returned to the Father.

                    Elaine

                    Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                    Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                    of the New Order of Glastonbury
                    Tacoma, WA
                  • Q Bee
                    ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                      On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                      > Elaine wrote:
                      >
                      >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                      > should be
                      >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                      > saying), ...
                      >
                      > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                      > Elaine?
                      >
                      I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                      >
                      >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                      > as 'kingdom', but
                      >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                      > a
                      >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                      > individuals.
                      >
                      > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                      > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                      > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                      > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                      >
                      The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                      Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                      within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                      Peace from Tacoma,

                      Elaine
                    • Tom Butler
                      Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                        Bob,
                        I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                        translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                        as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                        understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                        term.
                        I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                        partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                        comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                        largely because I see the relevance between the
                        Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                        associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                        49.
                        The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                        the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                        of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                        conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                        Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                        body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                        Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                        to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                        I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                        this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                        end without dipping my toe into it.

                        Yours in Christ's service,
                        Tom Butler


                        --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                        > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                        > "Comforter"?
                        >
                        > The translators of some versions of John use
                        > comforter, why?
                        > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                        > along
                        > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                        > might
                        > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                        > archetype as
                        > rebuilder of the temple?
                        >
                        > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                        > on
                        > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                        > there is an
                        > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                        > this
                        > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                        > the
                        > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                        > righteousness
                        > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                        > word might
                        > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                        > to my
                        > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                        > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                        >
                        > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                        > here,
                        > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                        > express
                        > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                        >
                        > reaching...
                        >
                        > Bob
                        >
                        > Bob MacDonald
                        > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                        > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                        >
                        > Catch the foxes for us,
                        > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                        > vineyards,
                        > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      • Bob MacDonald
                        Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                          Bravo Tom

                          Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                          and you found it again.

                          I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                          paraclete and naham.

                          What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                          repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                          both seems to be spelt the same!)

                          And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                          world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                          're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                          Bob

                          Bob MacDonald
                          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                          Victoria, B.C., Canada

                          Catch the foxes for us,
                          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                          -----Original Message-----
                          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                          Tom Butler
                          Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                          Bob,
                          I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                          translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                          as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                          understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                          term.
                          I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                          partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                          comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                          largely because I see the relevance between the
                          Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                          associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                          49.
                          The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                          the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                          of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                          conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                          Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                          body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                          Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                          to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                          I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                          this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                          end without dipping my toe into it.

                          Yours in Christ's service,
                          Tom Butler


                          --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                          > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                          > "Comforter"?
                          >
                          > The translators of some versions of John use
                          > comforter, why?
                          > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                          > along
                          > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                          > might
                          > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                          > archetype as
                          > rebuilder of the temple?
                          >
                          > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                          > on
                          > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                          > there is an
                          > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                          > this
                          > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                          > the
                          > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                          > righteousness
                          > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                          > word might
                          > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                          > to my
                          > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                          > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                          >
                          > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                          > here,
                          > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                          > express
                          > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                          >
                          > reaching...
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >
                          > Bob MacDonald
                          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                          >
                          > Catch the foxes for us,
                          > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                          > vineyards,
                          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                          Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                          Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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