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Re: [John_Lit] Web Publishing

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  • pastor_t@pacbell.net
    Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
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      Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
      My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
      interest in my work.
      In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
      the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
      the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
      work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
      by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
      Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
      anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
      address.
      I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
      (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
      uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
      Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
      to review A Day with Jesus.
      I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
      requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
      Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
      quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
      referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

      Tom Butler

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


      > Tom
      >
      > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
      > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
      > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
      > thesis.
      >
      > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
      > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
      > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
      > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
      > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
      > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
      > it purely for gain :)
      >
      > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
      > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
      > exist till you climb it.
      >
      > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
      > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
      > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
      > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
      > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
      > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
      >
      > Bob
      >
      > Bob MacDonald
      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
      >
      > Catch the foxes for us,
      > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      >
      >
      >
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    • Bob MacDonald
      Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
      Message 2 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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        Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
        Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
        John’s words for repentance concludes with:

        “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
        the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
        for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

        In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
        metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
        of repent, regret or remorse.“

        <<much snipped>>

        What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
        repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

        It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
        there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
        of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
        re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
        Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
        about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

        Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
        idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

        Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
        repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
        teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

        thanks

        Bob

        Bob MacDonald
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        Victoria, B.C., Canada

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
        ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
        Message 3 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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          Bob MacDonald wrote:

          >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
          the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
          like).<<

          I take it that your query concerns the role of the
          Paraclete as "Comforter."

          But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

          Jeffery Hodges

          University Degrees:

          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

          Email Address:

          jefferyhodges@...

          Blog:

          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

          Office Address:

          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Department of English Language and Literature
          Korea University
          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
          Seoul
          South Korea

          Home Address:

          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
          Sinnae-dong 795
          Jungrang-gu
          Seoul 131-770
          South Korea
        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
          ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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            Bob MacDonald wrote:

            >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
            the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
            like).<<

            I take it that your query concerns the role of the
            Paraclete as "Comforter."

            But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

            Jeffery Hodges

            University Degrees:

            Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
            (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
            M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
            B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

            Email Address:

            jefferyhodges@...

            Blog:

            http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

            Office Address:

            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Department of English Language and Literature
            Korea University
            136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
            Seoul
            South Korea

            Home Address:

            Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
            Sehan Apt. 102-2302
            Sinnae-dong 795
            Jungrang-gu
            Seoul 131-770
            South Korea
          • Bob MacDonald
            HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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              HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

              The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
              Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
              side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
              imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
              rebuilder of the temple?

              Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
              Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
              English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
              word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
              Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
              and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
              mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
              initial question - what relationship does it have to
              repentance for Jew or Gentile.

              I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
              with an Author or author stretching for language to express
              and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

              reaching...

              Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
              sign? :)

              Bob

              Bob MacDonald
              http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
              Victoria, B.C., Canada

              Catch the foxes for us,
              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            • Q Bee
              On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                (snip)

                > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                >
                From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                ________________

                This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                might have been in the original language for the following:
                1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                the passage quoted.

                Peace,

                Elaine

                Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                of the New Order of Glastonbury
                Tacoma, WA
              • deborahmillier
                ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                  Elaine wrote:

                  > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                  should be
                  > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                  saying), ...

                  We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                  Elaine?


                  > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                  as 'kingdom', but
                  > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                  a
                  > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                  individuals.

                  Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                  means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                  sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                  dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                  Shalom from Manila,
                  --Michael Millier
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  ... another sign? :)
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                    Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                    >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                    another sign? :)<<

                    Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                    for signs.

                    The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                    of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                    something, anyway.

                    I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                    didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                    posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                    see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                    posted once.

                    Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                    times more.

                    Let's see what happens to this one.

                    Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                    Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                    thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                    hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    University Degrees:

                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                    (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                    Email Address:

                    jefferyhodges@...

                    Blog:

                    http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                    Office Address:

                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Department of English Language and Literature
                    Korea University
                    136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                    Seoul
                    South Korea

                    Home Address:

                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                    Sinnae-dong 795
                    Jungrang-gu
                    Seoul 131-770
                    South Korea
                  • Q Bee
                    ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                      On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                      > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                      > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                      > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                      > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                      >
                      "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                      defendant.

                      NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                      advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                      sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                      terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                      spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                      of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                      is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                      represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                      returned to the Father.

                      Elaine

                      Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                      Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                      of the New Order of Glastonbury
                      Tacoma, WA
                    • Q Bee
                      ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                        On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                        > Elaine wrote:
                        >
                        >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                        > should be
                        >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                        > saying), ...
                        >
                        > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                        > Elaine?
                        >
                        I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                        >
                        >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                        > as 'kingdom', but
                        >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                        > a
                        >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                        > individuals.
                        >
                        > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                        > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                        > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                        > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                        >
                        The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                        Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                        within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                        Peace from Tacoma,

                        Elaine
                      • Tom Butler
                        Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                          Bob,
                          I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                          translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                          as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                          understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                          term.
                          I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                          partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                          comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                          largely because I see the relevance between the
                          Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                          associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                          49.
                          The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                          the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                          of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                          conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                          Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                          body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                          Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                          to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                          I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                          this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                          end without dipping my toe into it.

                          Yours in Christ's service,
                          Tom Butler


                          --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                          > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                          > "Comforter"?
                          >
                          > The translators of some versions of John use
                          > comforter, why?
                          > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                          > along
                          > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                          > might
                          > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                          > archetype as
                          > rebuilder of the temple?
                          >
                          > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                          > on
                          > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                          > there is an
                          > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                          > this
                          > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                          > the
                          > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                          > righteousness
                          > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                          > word might
                          > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                          > to my
                          > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                          > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                          >
                          > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                          > here,
                          > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                          > express
                          > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                          >
                          > reaching...
                          >
                          > Bob
                          >
                          > Bob MacDonald
                          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                          >
                          > Catch the foxes for us,
                          > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                          > vineyards,
                          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        • Bob MacDonald
                          Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                            Bravo Tom

                            Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                            and you found it again.

                            I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                            paraclete and naham.

                            What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                            repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                            both seems to be spelt the same!)

                            And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                            world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                            're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                            Bob

                            Bob MacDonald
                            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                            Victoria, B.C., Canada

                            Catch the foxes for us,
                            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                            -----Original Message-----
                            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                            Tom Butler
                            Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                            Bob,
                            I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                            translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                            as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                            understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                            term.
                            I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                            partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                            comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                            largely because I see the relevance between the
                            Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                            associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                            49.
                            The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                            the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                            of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                            conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                            Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                            body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                            Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                            to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                            I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                            this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                            end without dipping my toe into it.

                            Yours in Christ's service,
                            Tom Butler


                            --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                            > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                            > "Comforter"?
                            >
                            > The translators of some versions of John use
                            > comforter, why?
                            > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                            > along
                            > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                            > might
                            > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                            > archetype as
                            > rebuilder of the temple?
                            >
                            > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                            > on
                            > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                            > there is an
                            > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                            > this
                            > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                            > the
                            > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                            > righteousness
                            > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                            > word might
                            > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                            > to my
                            > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                            > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                            >
                            > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                            > here,
                            > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                            > express
                            > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                            >
                            > reaching...
                            >
                            > Bob
                            >
                            > Bob MacDonald
                            > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                            > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                            >
                            > Catch the foxes for us,
                            > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                            > vineyards,
                            > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                            Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                            Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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