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Re: [John_Lit] Web Publishing

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  • Tom Butler
    Dear Joh_Lit Listers, I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for their comments. They have been very helpful. I have begun sending electronic copies
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
      Dear Joh_Lit Listers,
      I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for
      their comments. They have been very helpful.
      I have begun sending electronic copies of my
      commentary on John to those who have requested them.
      It is quite a lengthy attachment. I'm not clear what
      the limitations are for this list, but I assume that
      long attachments are not permitted on messages sent to
      the list. I also assume that the full text would be
      too long for a single e-mail message to the list. I
      will take Dr. Jenney's comments regarding the limited
      market for commentaries into careful consideration as
      I determine whether or not to create a web site for
      this commentary.
      Self publishing, given the capability to format a
      book and put it on a CD at my own computer, may be an
      option as far as the publishing process for a small
      market is concerned, but I'm still at a loss as to how
      to market such a book. I've had my first book, Let
      Her Keep It, on Amazon.com for some time and do sell a
      few copies that way, but it is by no means a primary
      way to market a book. Perhaps there are specialty web
      pages that feature electronic books or books on the
      web or books available on CDs. I admit I'm a newcomer
      to this electronic publishing world, so I don't really
      know what's out there or how to access it.
      Not long ago Logos, which uses the Libronix Digital
      Library System sold software that allows scholars to
      publish articles or even books, using the electronic
      sources that Logos markets as resources, so that the
      author can include links, footnotes and extensive
      references within the body of the author's text,
      available to the reader who is equipped with those
      same digital resources with the click of a mouse.
      I've asked Logos to tell me how I might market a book
      or article written using their software to other
      people who own their software. They haven't answered
      my question. I think they envisioned their system as
      a way that one Biblical scholar could share with a
      very limited group of other Biblical scholars on a
      personal basis, but not on a marketing basis.
      Obviously they are not likely to publish a list of the
      people who own their software. I guess their only
      other option would be to produce a web page in which
      they feature works that have been created by their
      customers and listing which resources someone wishing
      to download such articles or books would need to
      access all of the reference materials used in those
      books or articles. That is another whole business. I
      guess this is a whole new world in publishing.
      Again, thanks for your help!

      Dr. Thomas W. Butler,
      Pastor Sparks United Methodist Church
      Sparks, Nevada

      --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
      wrote:

      > Joseph Codsi wrote
      >
      > > Publishers are interested in money. They would not
      > hesitate to publish
      > > the same thing for a second and third time if they
      > know it's going to
      > > sell.
      >
      > Individual commentaries rarely make much money for
      > anyone, publishers
      > included. There is simply not a large enough market
      > to generate very many
      > sales. This is very different from a
      > textbook--especially a freshman
      > textbook--where the potential audience numbers in
      > the hundreds of thousands.
      > Since both kinds of books require about the same
      > amount of editing, proofing
      > and layout work, the profit margin for a successful
      > book in either category
      > is vastly different.
      >
      > > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review
      > should not worry about
      > > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The
      > discussion of his work
      > > should allow him to improve it and increase its
      > scholarly value. By the
      > > same token, it seems to me, its market value will
      > increase as well.
      >
      > I agree, at least in part. This forum is an
      > excellent one for peer review.
      > It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets
      > from presenting at the
      > various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of
      > the commentary would be
      > improved. The market value is something else
      > entirely.
      >
      > > In the publishing world, very few are the authors
      > who make a living from
      > > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to
      > have their work
      > > published. The satisfaction of having been
      > published is their main
      > > reward.
      >
      > Only about 2% of the writers in the US support
      > themselves from writing. Most
      > of those are in the fiction categories: romances,
      > thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
      > Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's
      > the money for movie
      > options [six figures US] that pays the bills.
      > Similarly publishers lose
      > money on 98% of the books published in the US,
      > despite their best efforts to
      > weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to
      > publish.
      >
      > Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make
      > is about 5000 books
      > [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the
      > author subsidizes the
      > printing cost]. This means a company must believe
      > there are at least 5000
      > customers for book before they will commit to
      > publish. If a book in an
      > already small market has been compromised by
      > previous sales or distribution,
      > a publisher is going to pass.
      >
      > So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on
      > the internet may rob
      > someone of the chance to see his/her own work in
      > print. On the other hand,
      > internet publishing does give one immediate
      > satisfaction [I know this from
      > personal experience. See my web page:
      > http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
      > >
      > > But let's ask those who have published many books
      > to share their
      > > experience with us.
      > >
      > Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published
      > many books, but I have
      > published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and
      > served as an associate editor
      > for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also
      > published some articles in
      > various magazines and anthologies--and some material
      > on the web, as I
      > mentioned already, but mostly articles that I
      > believe would have a very
      > limited readership. I also have a number of friends
      > in the publishing
      > industry. In short, I have some experience to back
      > up my assertions. Still,
      > there may be others, with more or less experience
      > than I, that may have
      > different opinions.
      >
      > I also know that purchasing books overseas can be
      > extremely expensive:
      > tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping
      > costs, etc. I
      > sympathize with those list members trying to build
      > libraries under those
      > circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph
      > included the following quote
      > from Michael Keller in his original posting:
      >
      > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge
      > will be digitized and
      > available, one hopes for free reading on the
      > Internet, just as there is
      > free reading in libraries today."
      >
      > Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and
      > understand the work that goes
      > into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want
      > to see his hopes of
      > publishing [or making at least some money]
      > diminished: "The workman is
      > worthy of his wages."
      >
      > Anybody else want to chime in?
      >
      > Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
      > Adj. Prof, NT
      > Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
      >
      >
      >
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      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
    • Bob MacDonald
      Tom good to hear from you again. I take it you ve been busy :). You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let Her Keep It - a book I remember
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
        Tom

        good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
        You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
        Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
        thesis.

        I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
        years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
        good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
        Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
        the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
        with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
        it purely for gain :)

        The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
        herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
        exist till you climb it.

        I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
        the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
        stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
        it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
        have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
        sample chapters since it changes too often to update...

        Bob

        Bob MacDonald
        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
        Victoria, B.C., Canada

        Catch the foxes for us,
        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
      • pastor_t@pacbell.net
        Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
          Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
          My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
          interest in my work.
          In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
          the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
          the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
          work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
          by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
          Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
          anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
          address.
          I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
          (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
          uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
          Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
          to review A Day with Jesus.
          I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
          requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
          Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
          quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
          referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

          Tom Butler

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
          To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


          > Tom
          >
          > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
          > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
          > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
          > thesis.
          >
          > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
          > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
          > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
          > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
          > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
          > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
          > it purely for gain :)
          >
          > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
          > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
          > exist till you climb it.
          >
          > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
          > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
          > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
          > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
          > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
          > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
          >
          > Bob
          >
          > Bob MacDonald
          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
          >
          > Catch the foxes for us,
          > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          >
          >
          >
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          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
        • Bob MacDonald
          Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
          Message 4 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
            Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
            Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
            John’s words for repentance concludes with:

            “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
            the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
            for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

            In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
            metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
            of repent, regret or remorse.“

            <<much snipped>>

            What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
            repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

            It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
            there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
            of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
            re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
            Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
            about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

            Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
            idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

            Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
            repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
            teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

            thanks

            Bob

            Bob MacDonald
            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
            Victoria, B.C., Canada

            Catch the foxes for us,
            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
            ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
            Message 5 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
              Bob MacDonald wrote:

              >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
              the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
              like).<<

              I take it that your query concerns the role of the
              Paraclete as "Comforter."

              But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

              Jeffery Hodges

              University Degrees:

              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

              Email Address:

              jefferyhodges@...

              Blog:

              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

              Office Address:

              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Department of English Language and Literature
              Korea University
              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
              Seoul
              South Korea

              Home Address:

              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
              Sinnae-dong 795
              Jungrang-gu
              Seoul 131-770
              South Korea
            • Horace Jeffery Hodges
              ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
              Message 6 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                Bob MacDonald wrote:

                >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                like).<<

                I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                Paraclete as "Comforter."

                But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                Jeffery Hodges

                University Degrees:

                Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                Email Address:

                jefferyhodges@...

                Blog:

                http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                Office Address:

                Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Department of English Language and Literature
                Korea University
                136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                Seoul
                South Korea

                Home Address:

                Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                Sinnae-dong 795
                Jungrang-gu
                Seoul 131-770
                South Korea
              • Bob MacDonald
                HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                  HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                  The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
                  Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
                  side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
                  imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
                  rebuilder of the temple?

                  Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
                  Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
                  English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
                  word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
                  Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
                  and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
                  mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
                  initial question - what relationship does it have to
                  repentance for Jew or Gentile.

                  I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
                  with an Author or author stretching for language to express
                  and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

                  reaching...

                  Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
                  sign? :)

                  Bob

                  Bob MacDonald
                  http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                  Victoria, B.C., Canada

                  Catch the foxes for us,
                  the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                  for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                • Q Bee
                  On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                    On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                    (snip)

                    > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                    > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                    > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                    > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                    > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                    > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                    > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                    > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                    >
                    From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                    dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                    can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                    is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                    'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                    Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                    First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                    come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                    returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                    original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                    unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                    ________________

                    This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                    about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                    might have been in the original language for the following:
                    1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                    20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                    20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                    21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                    Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                    final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                    turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                    disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                    I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                    the passage quoted.

                    Peace,

                    Elaine

                    Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                    Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                    of the New Order of Glastonbury
                    Tacoma, WA
                  • deborahmillier
                    ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                      Elaine wrote:

                      > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                      should be
                      > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                      saying), ...

                      We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                      Elaine?


                      > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                      as 'kingdom', but
                      > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                      a
                      > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                      individuals.

                      Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                      means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                      sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                      dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                      Shalom from Manila,
                      --Michael Millier
                    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      ... another sign? :)
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                        Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                        >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                        another sign? :)<<

                        Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                        for signs.

                        The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                        of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                        something, anyway.

                        I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                        didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                        posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                        see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                        posted once.

                        Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                        times more.

                        Let's see what happens to this one.

                        Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                        Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                        thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                        hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                        Jeffery Hodges

                        University Degrees:

                        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                        Email Address:

                        jefferyhodges@...

                        Blog:

                        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                        Office Address:

                        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Department of English Language and Literature
                        Korea University
                        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                        Seoul
                        South Korea

                        Home Address:

                        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                        Sinnae-dong 795
                        Jungrang-gu
                        Seoul 131-770
                        South Korea
                      • Q Bee
                        ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                          On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                          > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                          >
                          > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                          > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                          > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                          > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                          >
                          "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                          defendant.

                          NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                          advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                          sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                          terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                          spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                          of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                          is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                          represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                          returned to the Father.

                          Elaine

                          Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                          Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                          of the New Order of Glastonbury
                          Tacoma, WA
                        • Q Bee
                          ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                            On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                            > Elaine wrote:
                            >
                            >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                            > should be
                            >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                            > saying), ...
                            >
                            > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                            > Elaine?
                            >
                            I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                            >
                            >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                            > as 'kingdom', but
                            >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                            > a
                            >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                            > individuals.
                            >
                            > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                            > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                            > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                            > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                            >
                            The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                            Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                            within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                            Peace from Tacoma,

                            Elaine
                          • Tom Butler
                            Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                              Bob,
                              I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                              translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                              as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                              understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                              term.
                              I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                              partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                              comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                              largely because I see the relevance between the
                              Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                              associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                              49.
                              The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                              the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                              of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                              conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                              Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                              body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                              Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                              to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                              I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                              this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                              end without dipping my toe into it.

                              Yours in Christ's service,
                              Tom Butler


                              --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                              > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                              > "Comforter"?
                              >
                              > The translators of some versions of John use
                              > comforter, why?
                              > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                              > along
                              > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                              > might
                              > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                              > archetype as
                              > rebuilder of the temple?
                              >
                              > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                              > on
                              > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                              > there is an
                              > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                              > this
                              > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                              > the
                              > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                              > righteousness
                              > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                              > word might
                              > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                              > to my
                              > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                              > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                              >
                              > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                              > here,
                              > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                              > express
                              > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                              >
                              > reaching...
                              >
                              > Bob
                              >
                              > Bob MacDonald
                              > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                              > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                              >
                              > Catch the foxes for us,
                              > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                              > vineyards,
                              > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                            • Bob MacDonald
                              Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                Bravo Tom

                                Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                                and you found it again.

                                I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                                paraclete and naham.

                                What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                                both seems to be spelt the same!)

                                And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                                world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                                're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                                Bob

                                Bob MacDonald
                                http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                Catch the foxes for us,
                                the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                Tom Butler
                                Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                                To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                                Bob,
                                I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                term.
                                I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                largely because I see the relevance between the
                                Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                49.
                                The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                end without dipping my toe into it.

                                Yours in Christ's service,
                                Tom Butler


                                --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                > "Comforter"?
                                >
                                > The translators of some versions of John use
                                > comforter, why?
                                > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                > along
                                > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                > might
                                > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                > archetype as
                                > rebuilder of the temple?
                                >
                                > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                > on
                                > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                > there is an
                                > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                > this
                                > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                > the
                                > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                > righteousness
                                > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                > word might
                                > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                > to my
                                > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                >
                                > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                > here,
                                > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                > express
                                > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                >
                                > reaching...
                                >
                                > Bob
                                >
                                > Bob MacDonald
                                > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                >
                                > Catch the foxes for us,
                                > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                > vineyards,
                                > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                                Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                                Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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