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RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing

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  • Peter Kirby
    I haven t published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be visited by
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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      I haven't published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search
      engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be
      visited by robots). In particular, archive.org will keep a history of
      all the changes made to a web page that is found by archive.org.

      If an author wishes to share something with a select audience, he or she
      has a few options (there may be more):

      1. Send it as an attachment to those who request.
      2. Upload it to an FTP site with a password.
      3. Upload it to a website with a password and norobots flag.
      4. Put it on CD-R, or even print it out, and mail it.

      If Tom would like to do (2) or (3), he may contact me off-list for
      assistance (and free hosting).

      --
      Peter Kirby (Undergrad in History at CSU Fullerton)
      Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/
    • Henry Sturcke
      Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related publications, I m taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich dissertation,
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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        Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related
        publications, I'm taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich
        dissertation, Encountering the Rest of God: How Jesus Came to Personify
        the Sabbath, has now been published by the Theologischer Verlag Zurich.

        Chapter 5 treats the Sabbath in the Fourth Gospel, including exegetical
        investigations of John 5:1-18, with the reference to it in 7:14-24, as
        well as ch. 9. In addition, the resurrection appearances on two
        successive Sunday evenings is dealt with.

        North American distribution is through Eisenbrauns.

        Best regards,
        Henry Sturcke
        University of Zurich
      • Timothy P. Jenney
        Joseph Codsi wrote ... Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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          Joseph Codsi wrote

          > Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
          > the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
          > sell.

          Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers
          included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate very many
          sales. This is very different from a textbook--especially a freshman
          textbook--where the potential audience numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
          Since both kinds of books require about the same amount of editing, proofing
          and layout work, the profit margin for a successful book in either category
          is vastly different.

          > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
          > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
          > should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
          > same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

          I agree, at least in part. This forum is an excellent one for peer review.
          It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets from presenting at the
          various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of the commentary would be
          improved. The market value is something else entirely.

          > In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
          > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
          > published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
          > reward.

          Only about 2% of the writers in the US support themselves from writing. Most
          of those are in the fiction categories: romances, thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
          Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's the money for movie
          options [six figures US] that pays the bills. Similarly publishers lose
          money on 98% of the books published in the US, despite their best efforts to
          weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to publish.

          Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make is about 5000 books
          [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the author subsidizes the
          printing cost]. This means a company must believe there are at least 5000
          customers for book before they will commit to publish. If a book in an
          already small market has been compromised by previous sales or distribution,
          a publisher is going to pass.

          So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on the internet may rob
          someone of the chance to see his/her own work in print. On the other hand,
          internet publishing does give one immediate satisfaction [I know this from
          personal experience. See my web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
          >
          > But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
          > experience with us.
          >
          Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published many books, but I have
          published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and served as an associate editor
          for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also published some articles in
          various magazines and anthologies--and some material on the web, as I
          mentioned already, but mostly articles that I believe would have a very
          limited readership. I also have a number of friends in the publishing
          industry. In short, I have some experience to back up my assertions. Still,
          there may be others, with more or less experience than I, that may have
          different opinions.

          I also know that purchasing books overseas can be extremely expensive:
          tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping costs, etc. I
          sympathize with those list members trying to build libraries under those
          circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph included the following quote
          from Michael Keller in his original posting:

          "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
          available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
          free reading in libraries today."

          Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and understand the work that goes
          into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want to see his hopes of
          publishing [or making at least some money] diminished: "The workman is
          worthy of his wages."

          Anybody else want to chime in?

          Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
          Adj. Prof, NT
          Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
        • Tom Butler
          Dear Joh_Lit Listers, I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for their comments. They have been very helpful. I have begun sending electronic copies
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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            Dear Joh_Lit Listers,
            I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for
            their comments. They have been very helpful.
            I have begun sending electronic copies of my
            commentary on John to those who have requested them.
            It is quite a lengthy attachment. I'm not clear what
            the limitations are for this list, but I assume that
            long attachments are not permitted on messages sent to
            the list. I also assume that the full text would be
            too long for a single e-mail message to the list. I
            will take Dr. Jenney's comments regarding the limited
            market for commentaries into careful consideration as
            I determine whether or not to create a web site for
            this commentary.
            Self publishing, given the capability to format a
            book and put it on a CD at my own computer, may be an
            option as far as the publishing process for a small
            market is concerned, but I'm still at a loss as to how
            to market such a book. I've had my first book, Let
            Her Keep It, on Amazon.com for some time and do sell a
            few copies that way, but it is by no means a primary
            way to market a book. Perhaps there are specialty web
            pages that feature electronic books or books on the
            web or books available on CDs. I admit I'm a newcomer
            to this electronic publishing world, so I don't really
            know what's out there or how to access it.
            Not long ago Logos, which uses the Libronix Digital
            Library System sold software that allows scholars to
            publish articles or even books, using the electronic
            sources that Logos markets as resources, so that the
            author can include links, footnotes and extensive
            references within the body of the author's text,
            available to the reader who is equipped with those
            same digital resources with the click of a mouse.
            I've asked Logos to tell me how I might market a book
            or article written using their software to other
            people who own their software. They haven't answered
            my question. I think they envisioned their system as
            a way that one Biblical scholar could share with a
            very limited group of other Biblical scholars on a
            personal basis, but not on a marketing basis.
            Obviously they are not likely to publish a list of the
            people who own their software. I guess their only
            other option would be to produce a web page in which
            they feature works that have been created by their
            customers and listing which resources someone wishing
            to download such articles or books would need to
            access all of the reference materials used in those
            books or articles. That is another whole business. I
            guess this is a whole new world in publishing.
            Again, thanks for your help!

            Dr. Thomas W. Butler,
            Pastor Sparks United Methodist Church
            Sparks, Nevada

            --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
            wrote:

            > Joseph Codsi wrote
            >
            > > Publishers are interested in money. They would not
            > hesitate to publish
            > > the same thing for a second and third time if they
            > know it's going to
            > > sell.
            >
            > Individual commentaries rarely make much money for
            > anyone, publishers
            > included. There is simply not a large enough market
            > to generate very many
            > sales. This is very different from a
            > textbook--especially a freshman
            > textbook--where the potential audience numbers in
            > the hundreds of thousands.
            > Since both kinds of books require about the same
            > amount of editing, proofing
            > and layout work, the profit margin for a successful
            > book in either category
            > is vastly different.
            >
            > > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review
            > should not worry about
            > > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The
            > discussion of his work
            > > should allow him to improve it and increase its
            > scholarly value. By the
            > > same token, it seems to me, its market value will
            > increase as well.
            >
            > I agree, at least in part. This forum is an
            > excellent one for peer review.
            > It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets
            > from presenting at the
            > various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of
            > the commentary would be
            > improved. The market value is something else
            > entirely.
            >
            > > In the publishing world, very few are the authors
            > who make a living from
            > > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to
            > have their work
            > > published. The satisfaction of having been
            > published is their main
            > > reward.
            >
            > Only about 2% of the writers in the US support
            > themselves from writing. Most
            > of those are in the fiction categories: romances,
            > thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
            > Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's
            > the money for movie
            > options [six figures US] that pays the bills.
            > Similarly publishers lose
            > money on 98% of the books published in the US,
            > despite their best efforts to
            > weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to
            > publish.
            >
            > Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make
            > is about 5000 books
            > [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the
            > author subsidizes the
            > printing cost]. This means a company must believe
            > there are at least 5000
            > customers for book before they will commit to
            > publish. If a book in an
            > already small market has been compromised by
            > previous sales or distribution,
            > a publisher is going to pass.
            >
            > So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on
            > the internet may rob
            > someone of the chance to see his/her own work in
            > print. On the other hand,
            > internet publishing does give one immediate
            > satisfaction [I know this from
            > personal experience. See my web page:
            > http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
            > >
            > > But let's ask those who have published many books
            > to share their
            > > experience with us.
            > >
            > Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published
            > many books, but I have
            > published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and
            > served as an associate editor
            > for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also
            > published some articles in
            > various magazines and anthologies--and some material
            > on the web, as I
            > mentioned already, but mostly articles that I
            > believe would have a very
            > limited readership. I also have a number of friends
            > in the publishing
            > industry. In short, I have some experience to back
            > up my assertions. Still,
            > there may be others, with more or less experience
            > than I, that may have
            > different opinions.
            >
            > I also know that purchasing books overseas can be
            > extremely expensive:
            > tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping
            > costs, etc. I
            > sympathize with those list members trying to build
            > libraries under those
            > circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph
            > included the following quote
            > from Michael Keller in his original posting:
            >
            > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge
            > will be digitized and
            > available, one hopes for free reading on the
            > Internet, just as there is
            > free reading in libraries today."
            >
            > Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and
            > understand the work that goes
            > into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want
            > to see his hopes of
            > publishing [or making at least some money]
            > diminished: "The workman is
            > worthy of his wages."
            >
            > Anybody else want to chime in?
            >
            > Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
            > Adj. Prof, NT
            > Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
            >
            >
            >
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            >


            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          • Bob MacDonald
            Tom good to hear from you again. I take it you ve been busy :). You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let Her Keep It - a book I remember
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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              Tom

              good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
              You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
              Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
              thesis.

              I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
              years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
              good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
              Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
              the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
              with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
              it purely for gain :)

              The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
              herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
              exist till you climb it.

              I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
              the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
              stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
              it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
              have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
              sample chapters since it changes too often to update...

              Bob

              Bob MacDonald
              http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
              Victoria, B.C., Canada

              Catch the foxes for us,
              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
            • pastor_t@pacbell.net
              Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
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                Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
                My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
                interest in my work.
                In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
                the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
                the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
                work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
                by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
                Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
                anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
                address.
                I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
                (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
                uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
                Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
                to review A Day with Jesus.
                I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
                requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
                Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
                quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
                referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

                Tom Butler

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
                To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
                Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


                > Tom
                >
                > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                > thesis.
                >
                > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                > it purely for gain :)
                >
                > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                > exist till you climb it.
                >
                > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
                >
                > Bob
                >
                > Bob MacDonald
                > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                >
                > Catch the foxes for us,
                > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                >
                >
                >
                > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                > Yahoo! Groups Links
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
              • Bob MacDonald
                Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
                Message 7 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                  Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
                  Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
                  John’s words for repentance concludes with:

                  “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
                  the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
                  for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

                  In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
                  metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
                  of repent, regret or remorse.“

                  <<much snipped>>

                  What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                  repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                  It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                  there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                  of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                  re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                  Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                  about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

                  Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
                  idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

                  Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
                  repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
                  teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

                  thanks

                  Bob

                  Bob MacDonald
                  http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                  Victoria, B.C., Canada

                  Catch the foxes for us,
                  the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                  for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                  ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                  Message 8 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                    Bob MacDonald wrote:

                    >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                    the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                    like).<<

                    I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                    Paraclete as "Comforter."

                    But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                    Jeffery Hodges

                    University Degrees:

                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                    (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                    Email Address:

                    jefferyhodges@...

                    Blog:

                    http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                    Office Address:

                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Department of English Language and Literature
                    Korea University
                    136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                    Seoul
                    South Korea

                    Home Address:

                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                    Sinnae-dong 795
                    Jungrang-gu
                    Seoul 131-770
                    South Korea
                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                    ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                    Message 9 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                      Bob MacDonald wrote:

                      >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                      the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                      like).<<

                      I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                      Paraclete as "Comforter."

                      But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                      Jeffery Hodges

                      University Degrees:

                      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                      Email Address:

                      jefferyhodges@...

                      Blog:

                      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                      Office Address:

                      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Department of English Language and Literature
                      Korea University
                      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                      Seoul
                      South Korea

                      Home Address:

                      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                      Sinnae-dong 795
                      Jungrang-gu
                      Seoul 131-770
                      South Korea
                    • Bob MacDonald
                      HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
                      Message 10 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                        HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                        The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
                        Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
                        side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
                        imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
                        rebuilder of the temple?

                        Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
                        Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
                        English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
                        word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
                        Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
                        and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
                        mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
                        initial question - what relationship does it have to
                        repentance for Jew or Gentile.

                        I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
                        with an Author or author stretching for language to express
                        and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

                        reaching...

                        Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
                        sign? :)

                        Bob

                        Bob MacDonald
                        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                        Victoria, B.C., Canada

                        Catch the foxes for us,
                        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                      • Q Bee
                        On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                          On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                          (snip)

                          > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                          > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                          > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                          > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                          > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                          > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                          > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                          > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                          >
                          From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                          dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                          can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                          is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                          'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                          Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                          First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                          come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                          returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                          original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                          unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                          ________________

                          This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                          about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                          might have been in the original language for the following:
                          1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                          20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                          20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                          21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                          Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                          final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                          turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                          disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                          I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                          the passage quoted.

                          Peace,

                          Elaine

                          Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                          Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                          of the New Order of Glastonbury
                          Tacoma, WA
                        • deborahmillier
                          ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                            Elaine wrote:

                            > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                            should be
                            > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                            saying), ...

                            We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                            Elaine?


                            > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                            as 'kingdom', but
                            > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                            a
                            > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                            individuals.

                            Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                            means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                            sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                            dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                            Shalom from Manila,
                            --Michael Millier
                          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            ... another sign? :)
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                              Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                              >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                              another sign? :)<<

                              Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                              for signs.

                              The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                              of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                              something, anyway.

                              I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                              didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                              posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                              see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                              posted once.

                              Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                              times more.

                              Let's see what happens to this one.

                              Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                              Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                              thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                              hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                              Jeffery Hodges

                              University Degrees:

                              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                              Email Address:

                              jefferyhodges@...

                              Blog:

                              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                              Office Address:

                              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              Department of English Language and Literature
                              Korea University
                              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                              Seoul
                              South Korea

                              Home Address:

                              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                              Sinnae-dong 795
                              Jungrang-gu
                              Seoul 131-770
                              South Korea
                            • Q Bee
                              ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                                > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                                >
                                "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                                defendant.

                                NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                                advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                                sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                                terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                                spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                                of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                                is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                                represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                                returned to the Father.

                                Elaine

                                Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                                Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                Tacoma, WA
                              • Q Bee
                                ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                  On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                                  > Elaine wrote:
                                  >
                                  >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                  > should be
                                  >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                  > saying), ...
                                  >
                                  > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                  > Elaine?
                                  >
                                  I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                                  >
                                  >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                  > as 'kingdom', but
                                  >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                  > a
                                  >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                  > individuals.
                                  >
                                  > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                  > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                  > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                  > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                                  >
                                  The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                                  Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                                  within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                                  Peace from Tacoma,

                                  Elaine
                                • Tom Butler
                                  Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                    Bob,
                                    I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                    translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                    as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                    understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                    term.
                                    I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                    partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                    comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                    largely because I see the relevance between the
                                    Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                    associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                    49.
                                    The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                    the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                    of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                    conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                    Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                    body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                    Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                    to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                    I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                    this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                    end without dipping my toe into it.

                                    Yours in Christ's service,
                                    Tom Butler


                                    --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                    > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                    > "Comforter"?
                                    >
                                    > The translators of some versions of John use
                                    > comforter, why?
                                    > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                    > along
                                    > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                    > might
                                    > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                    > archetype as
                                    > rebuilder of the temple?
                                    >
                                    > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                    > on
                                    > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                    > there is an
                                    > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                    > this
                                    > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                    > the
                                    > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                    > righteousness
                                    > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                    > word might
                                    > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                    > to my
                                    > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                    > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                    >
                                    > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                    > here,
                                    > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                    > express
                                    > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                    >
                                    > reaching...
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > Bob MacDonald
                                    > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                    > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                    >
                                    > Catch the foxes for us,
                                    > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                    > vineyards,
                                    > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                  • Bob MacDonald
                                    Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                      Bravo Tom

                                      Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                                      and you found it again.

                                      I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                                      paraclete and naham.

                                      What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                      repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                                      both seems to be spelt the same!)

                                      And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                                      world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                                      're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                                      Bob

                                      Bob MacDonald
                                      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                      Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                      Catch the foxes for us,
                                      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                                      -----Original Message-----
                                      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                      Tom Butler
                                      Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                                      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                                      Bob,
                                      I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                      translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                      as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                      understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                      term.
                                      I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                      partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                      comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                      largely because I see the relevance between the
                                      Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                      associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                      49.
                                      The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                      the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                      of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                      conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                      Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                      body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                      Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                      to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                      I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                      this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                      end without dipping my toe into it.

                                      Yours in Christ's service,
                                      Tom Butler


                                      --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                      > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                      > "Comforter"?
                                      >
                                      > The translators of some versions of John use
                                      > comforter, why?
                                      > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                      > along
                                      > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                      > might
                                      > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                      > archetype as
                                      > rebuilder of the temple?
                                      >
                                      > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                      > on
                                      > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                      > there is an
                                      > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                      > this
                                      > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                      > the
                                      > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                      > righteousness
                                      > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                      > word might
                                      > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                      > to my
                                      > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                      > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                      >
                                      > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                      > here,
                                      > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                      > express
                                      > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                      >
                                      > reaching...
                                      >
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                      > Bob MacDonald
                                      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                      >
                                      > Catch the foxes for us,
                                      > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                      > vineyards,
                                      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                                      Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                                      Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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