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Re: [John_Lit] Activity

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  • Tom Butler
    Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers, My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries is that the material that libraries are and will be converting to digital
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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      Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers,
      My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries
      is that the material that libraries are and will be
      converting to digital format is already protected by
      copyrights. I suppose that anything published on the
      web is available to anyone with a computer, and is
      therefore not considered protected by copyright. If
      there were ever a dispute regarding material taken
      from a web source without proper attribution, then I
      suppose one could establish when the web site was
      created and when a particular piece was placed on that
      web site. However, it seems logical to me that a
      court could determine that placing printed material on
      a web site essentially means that it belongs to the
      public domain unless the copyright was registered
      prior to the appearance of that material on the web.
      I will send an electronic copy of my commentary as
      an attachment to anyone wishing to review it. In this
      way I know who has a copy of it.

      Tom Butler

      --- Lee Edgar Tyler <leeedgartyler@...> wrote:

      > Joseph Codsi wrote:
      >
      > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
      > He says:
      > >
      > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
      > suppose I would lose
      > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
      > >
      > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
      > publishing an essay on
      > >the web?
      > >
      > >Joseph
      > >================
      > >Joseph Codsi
      > >P.O. Box 116-2088
      > >Beirut, Lebanon
      > >Telephone (961) 1 423 145
      > >joseph5@...
      > >
      > >
      >
      > Actually, publishing an essay on the web could
      > strengthen one's
      > copyright, because it would document a date by which
      > the work had been
      > created
      >
      > Ed Tyler


      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
    • Tom Butler
      Stephen, Could you say a little more? Does the change in the U.S. copyright law now indicate that material published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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        Stephen,
        Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
        U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
        published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
        under copyright protection, or is there a process that
        must be completed first?

        Tom Butler

        --- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
        wrote:

        > At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
        > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
        > He says:
        > >
        > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
        > suppose I would lose
        > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
        > >
        > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
        > publishing an essay on
        > >the web?
        >
        > That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
        > copyright law,
        > which has been changing to be in greater harmony
        > with the
        > copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
        >
        > Stephen Carlson
        > --
        > Stephen C. Carlson
        > mailto:scarlson@...
        > Weblog:
        > http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
        > Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
        > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
        >
        >
        >
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        >
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        >
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        >
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        >
        > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >


        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      • Stephen C. Carlson
        ... Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically secured, without the formalities of registration, once an original work of authorship is fixed in an
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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          At 02:14 PM 8/18/2005 -0700, Tom Butler wrote:
          >Stephen,
          > Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
          >U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
          >published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
          >under copyright protection, or is there a process that
          >must be completed first?

          Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically
          secured, without the formalities of registration, once
          an original work of authorship is fixed in an tangible
          medium of expression. This is due to the passage of
          the 1976 Copyright Act and the U.S.'s accession to the
          Berne convention in 1989.

          The Copyright Office's FAQ is here:
          http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

          This basically means that authors get copyright in the
          U.S. immediately upon creation, though there are some
          benefits to registering your copyright early and/or
          before it is infringed. For advice specific to the
          facts of your situation, I suggest you consult a
          competent attorney with whom you have an attorney-
          client relationship (not me).

          That being said, the economic reasons not to do so,
          as pointed out by others, may be very important.

          Stephen Carlson

          >Tom Butler
          >
          >--- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
          >wrote:
          >
          >> At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
          >> >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
          >> He says:
          >> >
          >> ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
          >> suppose I would lose
          >> >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
          >> >
          >> >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
          >> publishing an essay on
          >> >the web?
          >>
          >> That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
          >> copyright law,
          >> which has been changing to be in greater harmony
          >> with the
          >> copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
          >>
          >> Stephen Carlson
          >> --
          >> Stephen C. Carlson
          >> mailto:scarlson@...
          >> Weblog:
          >> http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
          >> Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
          >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
          >> johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
          >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail
          >> johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
          >>
          >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
          >>
          >> Yahoo! Groups Links
          >>
          >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
          >>
          >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >>
          >
          >
          ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          >
          >
          >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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          >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
          >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
          >Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >

          --
          Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
          Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
          Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
        • Joseph Codsi
          Timothy P. Jenney wrote:
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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            Timothy P. Jenney wrote:

            <<While Tom's copyright would still be intact, his ability to market the
            final version could be limited. A publisher might [rightly] consider
            that the market for a published commentary has been severely shrunken
            because its "near ancestor" was available in electronic form.>>

            Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
            the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
            sell.

            Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
            posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
            should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
            same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

            In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
            their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
            published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
            reward.

            But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
            experience with us.

            Cheers,

            Joseph

            ================
            Joseph Codsi
            P.O. Box 116-2088
            Beirut, Lebanon
            Telephone (961) 1 423 145
            joseph5@...
          • Peter Kirby
            I haven t published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be visited by
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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              I haven't published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search
              engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be
              visited by robots). In particular, archive.org will keep a history of
              all the changes made to a web page that is found by archive.org.

              If an author wishes to share something with a select audience, he or she
              has a few options (there may be more):

              1. Send it as an attachment to those who request.
              2. Upload it to an FTP site with a password.
              3. Upload it to a website with a password and norobots flag.
              4. Put it on CD-R, or even print it out, and mail it.

              If Tom would like to do (2) or (3), he may contact me off-list for
              assistance (and free hosting).

              --
              Peter Kirby (Undergrad in History at CSU Fullerton)
              Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/
            • Henry Sturcke
              Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related publications, I m taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich dissertation,
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related
                publications, I'm taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich
                dissertation, Encountering the Rest of God: How Jesus Came to Personify
                the Sabbath, has now been published by the Theologischer Verlag Zurich.

                Chapter 5 treats the Sabbath in the Fourth Gospel, including exegetical
                investigations of John 5:1-18, with the reference to it in 7:14-24, as
                well as ch. 9. In addition, the resurrection appearances on two
                successive Sunday evenings is dealt with.

                North American distribution is through Eisenbrauns.

                Best regards,
                Henry Sturcke
                University of Zurich
              • Timothy P. Jenney
                Joseph Codsi wrote ... Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                  Joseph Codsi wrote

                  > Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
                  > the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
                  > sell.

                  Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers
                  included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate very many
                  sales. This is very different from a textbook--especially a freshman
                  textbook--where the potential audience numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
                  Since both kinds of books require about the same amount of editing, proofing
                  and layout work, the profit margin for a successful book in either category
                  is vastly different.

                  > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
                  > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
                  > should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
                  > same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

                  I agree, at least in part. This forum is an excellent one for peer review.
                  It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets from presenting at the
                  various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of the commentary would be
                  improved. The market value is something else entirely.

                  > In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
                  > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
                  > published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
                  > reward.

                  Only about 2% of the writers in the US support themselves from writing. Most
                  of those are in the fiction categories: romances, thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                  Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's the money for movie
                  options [six figures US] that pays the bills. Similarly publishers lose
                  money on 98% of the books published in the US, despite their best efforts to
                  weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to publish.

                  Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make is about 5000 books
                  [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the author subsidizes the
                  printing cost]. This means a company must believe there are at least 5000
                  customers for book before they will commit to publish. If a book in an
                  already small market has been compromised by previous sales or distribution,
                  a publisher is going to pass.

                  So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on the internet may rob
                  someone of the chance to see his/her own work in print. On the other hand,
                  internet publishing does give one immediate satisfaction [I know this from
                  personal experience. See my web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                  >
                  > But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
                  > experience with us.
                  >
                  Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published many books, but I have
                  published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and served as an associate editor
                  for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also published some articles in
                  various magazines and anthologies--and some material on the web, as I
                  mentioned already, but mostly articles that I believe would have a very
                  limited readership. I also have a number of friends in the publishing
                  industry. In short, I have some experience to back up my assertions. Still,
                  there may be others, with more or less experience than I, that may have
                  different opinions.

                  I also know that purchasing books overseas can be extremely expensive:
                  tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping costs, etc. I
                  sympathize with those list members trying to build libraries under those
                  circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph included the following quote
                  from Michael Keller in his original posting:

                  "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                  available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
                  free reading in libraries today."

                  Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and understand the work that goes
                  into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want to see his hopes of
                  publishing [or making at least some money] diminished: "The workman is
                  worthy of his wages."

                  Anybody else want to chime in?

                  Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                  Adj. Prof, NT
                  Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                • Tom Butler
                  Dear Joh_Lit Listers, I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for their comments. They have been very helpful. I have begun sending electronic copies
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                    Dear Joh_Lit Listers,
                    I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for
                    their comments. They have been very helpful.
                    I have begun sending electronic copies of my
                    commentary on John to those who have requested them.
                    It is quite a lengthy attachment. I'm not clear what
                    the limitations are for this list, but I assume that
                    long attachments are not permitted on messages sent to
                    the list. I also assume that the full text would be
                    too long for a single e-mail message to the list. I
                    will take Dr. Jenney's comments regarding the limited
                    market for commentaries into careful consideration as
                    I determine whether or not to create a web site for
                    this commentary.
                    Self publishing, given the capability to format a
                    book and put it on a CD at my own computer, may be an
                    option as far as the publishing process for a small
                    market is concerned, but I'm still at a loss as to how
                    to market such a book. I've had my first book, Let
                    Her Keep It, on Amazon.com for some time and do sell a
                    few copies that way, but it is by no means a primary
                    way to market a book. Perhaps there are specialty web
                    pages that feature electronic books or books on the
                    web or books available on CDs. I admit I'm a newcomer
                    to this electronic publishing world, so I don't really
                    know what's out there or how to access it.
                    Not long ago Logos, which uses the Libronix Digital
                    Library System sold software that allows scholars to
                    publish articles or even books, using the electronic
                    sources that Logos markets as resources, so that the
                    author can include links, footnotes and extensive
                    references within the body of the author's text,
                    available to the reader who is equipped with those
                    same digital resources with the click of a mouse.
                    I've asked Logos to tell me how I might market a book
                    or article written using their software to other
                    people who own their software. They haven't answered
                    my question. I think they envisioned their system as
                    a way that one Biblical scholar could share with a
                    very limited group of other Biblical scholars on a
                    personal basis, but not on a marketing basis.
                    Obviously they are not likely to publish a list of the
                    people who own their software. I guess their only
                    other option would be to produce a web page in which
                    they feature works that have been created by their
                    customers and listing which resources someone wishing
                    to download such articles or books would need to
                    access all of the reference materials used in those
                    books or articles. That is another whole business. I
                    guess this is a whole new world in publishing.
                    Again, thanks for your help!

                    Dr. Thomas W. Butler,
                    Pastor Sparks United Methodist Church
                    Sparks, Nevada

                    --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
                    wrote:

                    > Joseph Codsi wrote
                    >
                    > > Publishers are interested in money. They would not
                    > hesitate to publish
                    > > the same thing for a second and third time if they
                    > know it's going to
                    > > sell.
                    >
                    > Individual commentaries rarely make much money for
                    > anyone, publishers
                    > included. There is simply not a large enough market
                    > to generate very many
                    > sales. This is very different from a
                    > textbook--especially a freshman
                    > textbook--where the potential audience numbers in
                    > the hundreds of thousands.
                    > Since both kinds of books require about the same
                    > amount of editing, proofing
                    > and layout work, the profit margin for a successful
                    > book in either category
                    > is vastly different.
                    >
                    > > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review
                    > should not worry about
                    > > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The
                    > discussion of his work
                    > > should allow him to improve it and increase its
                    > scholarly value. By the
                    > > same token, it seems to me, its market value will
                    > increase as well.
                    >
                    > I agree, at least in part. This forum is an
                    > excellent one for peer review.
                    > It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets
                    > from presenting at the
                    > various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of
                    > the commentary would be
                    > improved. The market value is something else
                    > entirely.
                    >
                    > > In the publishing world, very few are the authors
                    > who make a living from
                    > > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to
                    > have their work
                    > > published. The satisfaction of having been
                    > published is their main
                    > > reward.
                    >
                    > Only about 2% of the writers in the US support
                    > themselves from writing. Most
                    > of those are in the fiction categories: romances,
                    > thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                    > Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's
                    > the money for movie
                    > options [six figures US] that pays the bills.
                    > Similarly publishers lose
                    > money on 98% of the books published in the US,
                    > despite their best efforts to
                    > weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to
                    > publish.
                    >
                    > Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make
                    > is about 5000 books
                    > [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the
                    > author subsidizes the
                    > printing cost]. This means a company must believe
                    > there are at least 5000
                    > customers for book before they will commit to
                    > publish. If a book in an
                    > already small market has been compromised by
                    > previous sales or distribution,
                    > a publisher is going to pass.
                    >
                    > So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on
                    > the internet may rob
                    > someone of the chance to see his/her own work in
                    > print. On the other hand,
                    > internet publishing does give one immediate
                    > satisfaction [I know this from
                    > personal experience. See my web page:
                    > http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                    > >
                    > > But let's ask those who have published many books
                    > to share their
                    > > experience with us.
                    > >
                    > Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published
                    > many books, but I have
                    > published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and
                    > served as an associate editor
                    > for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also
                    > published some articles in
                    > various magazines and anthologies--and some material
                    > on the web, as I
                    > mentioned already, but mostly articles that I
                    > believe would have a very
                    > limited readership. I also have a number of friends
                    > in the publishing
                    > industry. In short, I have some experience to back
                    > up my assertions. Still,
                    > there may be others, with more or less experience
                    > than I, that may have
                    > different opinions.
                    >
                    > I also know that purchasing books overseas can be
                    > extremely expensive:
                    > tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping
                    > costs, etc. I
                    > sympathize with those list members trying to build
                    > libraries under those
                    > circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph
                    > included the following quote
                    > from Michael Keller in his original posting:
                    >
                    > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge
                    > will be digitized and
                    > available, one hopes for free reading on the
                    > Internet, just as there is
                    > free reading in libraries today."
                    >
                    > Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and
                    > understand the work that goes
                    > into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want
                    > to see his hopes of
                    > publishing [or making at least some money]
                    > diminished: "The workman is
                    > worthy of his wages."
                    >
                    > Anybody else want to chime in?
                    >
                    > Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                    > Adj. Prof, NT
                    > Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                    > johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                    > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                    >
                    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                    >
                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                    >
                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                    >
                    > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  • Bob MacDonald
                    Tom good to hear from you again. I take it you ve been busy :). You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let Her Keep It - a book I remember
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                      Tom

                      good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                      You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                      Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                      thesis.

                      I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                      years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                      good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                      Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                      the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                      with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                      it purely for gain :)

                      The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                      herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                      exist till you climb it.

                      I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                      the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                      stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                      it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                      have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                      sample chapters since it changes too often to update...

                      Bob

                      Bob MacDonald
                      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                      Victoria, B.C., Canada

                      Catch the foxes for us,
                      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                    • pastor_t@pacbell.net
                      Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
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                        Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
                        My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
                        interest in my work.
                        In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
                        the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
                        the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
                        work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
                        by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
                        Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
                        anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
                        address.
                        I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
                        (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
                        uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
                        Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
                        to review A Day with Jesus.
                        I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
                        requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
                        Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
                        quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
                        referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

                        Tom Butler

                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
                        To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
                        Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


                        > Tom
                        >
                        > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                        > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                        > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                        > thesis.
                        >
                        > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                        > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                        > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                        > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                        > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                        > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                        > it purely for gain :)
                        >
                        > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                        > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                        > exist till you climb it.
                        >
                        > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                        > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                        > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                        > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                        > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                        > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
                        >
                        > Bob
                        >
                        > Bob MacDonald
                        > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                        > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                        >
                        > Catch the foxes for us,
                        > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                        > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                        >
                        >
                        >
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                      • Bob MacDonald
                        Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
                          Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
                          John’s words for repentance concludes with:

                          “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
                          the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
                          for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

                          In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
                          metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
                          of repent, regret or remorse.“

                          <<much snipped>>

                          What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                          repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                          It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                          there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                          of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                          re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                          Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                          about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

                          Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
                          idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

                          Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
                          repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
                          teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

                          thanks

                          Bob

                          Bob MacDonald
                          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                          Victoria, B.C., Canada

                          Catch the foxes for us,
                          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                          ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                          Message 12 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Bob MacDonald wrote:

                            >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                            the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                            like).<<

                            I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                            Paraclete as "Comforter."

                            But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                            Jeffery Hodges

                            University Degrees:

                            Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                            (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                            M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                            B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                            Email Address:

                            jefferyhodges@...

                            Blog:

                            http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                            Office Address:

                            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            Department of English Language and Literature
                            Korea University
                            136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                            Seoul
                            South Korea

                            Home Address:

                            Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                            Sinnae-dong 795
                            Jungrang-gu
                            Seoul 131-770
                            South Korea
                          • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                            ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                            Message 13 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                              Bob MacDonald wrote:

                              >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                              the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                              like).<<

                              I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                              Paraclete as "Comforter."

                              But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                              Jeffery Hodges

                              University Degrees:

                              Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                              (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                              M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                              B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                              Email Address:

                              jefferyhodges@...

                              Blog:

                              http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                              Office Address:

                              Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              Department of English Language and Literature
                              Korea University
                              136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                              Seoul
                              South Korea

                              Home Address:

                              Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                              Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                              Sinnae-dong 795
                              Jungrang-gu
                              Seoul 131-770
                              South Korea
                            • Bob MacDonald
                              HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
                              Message 14 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
                              • 0 Attachment
                                HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
                                Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
                                side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
                                imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
                                rebuilder of the temple?

                                Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
                                Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
                                English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
                                word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
                                Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
                                and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
                                mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
                                initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                repentance for Jew or Gentile.

                                I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
                                with an Author or author stretching for language to express
                                and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

                                reaching...

                                Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
                                sign? :)

                                Bob

                                Bob MacDonald
                                http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                Catch the foxes for us,
                                the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                              • Q Bee
                                On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
                                Message 15 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                  On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                  (snip)

                                  > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                  > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                                  > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                                  > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                                  > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                                  > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                                  > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                                  > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                                  >
                                  From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                                  dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                                  can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                                  is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                                  'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                                  Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                                  First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                                  come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                                  returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                                  original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                                  unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                                  ________________

                                  This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                                  about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                                  might have been in the original language for the following:
                                  1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                                  20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                                  20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                                  21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                                  Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                                  final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                                  turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                                  disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                                  I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                                  the passage quoted.

                                  Peace,

                                  Elaine

                                  Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                                  Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                  of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                  Tacoma, WA
                                • deborahmillier
                                  ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                    Elaine wrote:

                                    > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                    should be
                                    > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                    saying), ...

                                    We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                    Elaine?


                                    > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                    as 'kingdom', but
                                    > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                    a
                                    > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                    individuals.

                                    Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                    means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                    sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                    dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                                    Shalom from Manila,
                                    --Michael Millier
                                  • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                    ... another sign? :)
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                      Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                      >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                                      another sign? :)<<

                                      Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                                      for signs.

                                      The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                                      of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                                      something, anyway.

                                      I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                                      didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                                      posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                                      see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                                      posted once.

                                      Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                                      times more.

                                      Let's see what happens to this one.

                                      Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                      Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                      thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                      hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                                      Jeffery Hodges

                                      University Degrees:

                                      Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                      (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                      M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                      B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                      Email Address:

                                      jefferyhodges@...

                                      Blog:

                                      http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                      Office Address:

                                      Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                      Department of English Language and Literature
                                      Korea University
                                      136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                      Seoul
                                      South Korea

                                      Home Address:

                                      Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                      Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                      Sinnae-dong 795
                                      Jungrang-gu
                                      Seoul 131-770
                                      South Korea
                                    • Q Bee
                                      ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                        On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                                        > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                        > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                        > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                        > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                                        >
                                        "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                                        defendant.

                                        NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                                        advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                                        sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                                        terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                                        spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                                        of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                                        is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                                        represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                                        returned to the Father.

                                        Elaine

                                        Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                                        Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                        of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                        Tacoma, WA
                                      • Q Bee
                                        ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                                          > Elaine wrote:
                                          >
                                          >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                          > should be
                                          >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                          > saying), ...
                                          >
                                          > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                          > Elaine?
                                          >
                                          I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                                          >
                                          >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                          > as 'kingdom', but
                                          >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                          > a
                                          >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                          > individuals.
                                          >
                                          > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                          > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                          > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                          > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                                          >
                                          The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                                          Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                                          within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                                          Peace from Tacoma,

                                          Elaine
                                        • Tom Butler
                                          Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            Bob,
                                            I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                            translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                            as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                            understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                            term.
                                            I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                            partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                            comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                            largely because I see the relevance between the
                                            Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                            associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                            49.
                                            The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                            the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                            of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                            conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                            Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                            body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                            Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                            to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                            I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                            this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                            end without dipping my toe into it.

                                            Yours in Christ's service,
                                            Tom Butler


                                            --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                            > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                            > "Comforter"?
                                            >
                                            > The translators of some versions of John use
                                            > comforter, why?
                                            > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                            > along
                                            > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                            > might
                                            > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                            > archetype as
                                            > rebuilder of the temple?
                                            >
                                            > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                            > on
                                            > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                            > there is an
                                            > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                            > this
                                            > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                            > the
                                            > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                            > righteousness
                                            > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                            > word might
                                            > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                            > to my
                                            > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                            > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                            >
                                            > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                            > here,
                                            > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                            > express
                                            > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                            >
                                            > reaching...
                                            >
                                            > Bob
                                            >
                                            > Bob MacDonald
                                            > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                            > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                            >
                                            > Catch the foxes for us,
                                            > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                            > vineyards,
                                            > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                          • Bob MacDonald
                                            Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                              Bravo Tom

                                              Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                                              and you found it again.

                                              I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                                              paraclete and naham.

                                              What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                              repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                                              both seems to be spelt the same!)

                                              And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                                              world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                                              're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                                              Bob

                                              Bob MacDonald
                                              http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                              Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                              Catch the foxes for us,
                                              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                                              -----Original Message-----
                                              From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                              [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                              Tom Butler
                                              Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                                              To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                              Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                                              Bob,
                                              I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                              translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                              as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                              understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                              term.
                                              I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                              partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                              comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                              largely because I see the relevance between the
                                              Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                              associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                              49.
                                              The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                              the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                              of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                              conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                              Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                              body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                              Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                              to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                              I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                              this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                              end without dipping my toe into it.

                                              Yours in Christ's service,
                                              Tom Butler


                                              --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                              > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                              > "Comforter"?
                                              >
                                              > The translators of some versions of John use
                                              > comforter, why?
                                              > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                              > along
                                              > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                              > might
                                              > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                              > archetype as
                                              > rebuilder of the temple?
                                              >
                                              > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                              > on
                                              > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                              > there is an
                                              > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                              > this
                                              > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                              > the
                                              > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                              > righteousness
                                              > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                              > word might
                                              > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                              > to my
                                              > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                              > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                              >
                                              > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                              > here,
                                              > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                              > express
                                              > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                              >
                                              > reaching...
                                              >
                                              > Bob
                                              >
                                              > Bob MacDonald
                                              > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                              > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                              >
                                              > Catch the foxes for us,
                                              > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                              > vineyards,
                                              > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                                              Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                              <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                                              Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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