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Re: [John_Lit] Activity

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  • Rev. Jim Rudolph
    Tom, I would be interested in seeing your rough draft. Will you be posting a site for it on the listing, or what will you be doing? Jim Rudolph On Tue, 16
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 16, 2005
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      Tom,

      I would be interested in seeing your "rough draft." Will you be posting
      a site for it on the listing, or what will you be doing?

      Jim Rudolph

      On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Tom Butler
      <pastor_t@...> writes:
      > John_Lit Listers,
      > I have just completed a rough draft of a commentary
      > on the Fourth Gospel. It is a long way from being
      > ready for publication, but I would be grateful for the
      > opportunity to submit it for your critical
      > examination. Please let me know if you are
      > interested.
      >
      > Tom Butler
      > Author of Let Her Keep It
      >
      > --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
      >
      > > Thereb has been no activityt since June 24. Anyone
      > > know what the
      > > problem is?
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
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      > >
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      > >
      > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      > >
      >
      >
      > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
      > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
      > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      >
      >
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    • Tom Butler
      Jim, Prior to publishing Let Her Keep It, I summarized the material in sequential messages to an on-line discussion group, which posed questions and challenged
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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        Jim,
        Prior to publishing Let Her Keep It, I summarized
        the material in sequential messages to an on-line
        discussion group, which posed questions and challenged
        my assumptions. That was a helpful process, but
        nothing like a critical review by scholars.
        Perhaps those on the list with experience in doing
        this could guide me. How does one submit an
        unpublished work for critical review? I hesitate to
        publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
        copyright privileges to the material in that way.
        I would be pleased to send an electronic copy to
        anyone who would offer a review.

        Tom Butler

        --- "Rev. Jim Rudolph" <jcrudolph@...> wrote:

        > Tom,
        >
        > I would be interested in seeing your "rough draft."
        > Will you be posting a site for it on the listing, >
        or what will you be doing?
        >
        > Jim Rudolph
        >
        > > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
        > > Tom Butler <pastor_t@...> writes:
        > >
        > > John_Lit Listers,
        > > I have just completed a rough draft of a
        > > commentary on the Fourth Gospel. It is a long >
        > way from being ready for publication, but I would >
        > be grateful for the opportunity to submit it for > >
        your critical examination. Please let me know if > >
        you are interested.
        > >
        > > Tom Butler
        > > Author of Let Her Keep It
        > >
        > > --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
        > >
        > > > There has been no activity since June 24.
        > > > Anyone know what the problem is?

        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
      • Joseph Codsi
        Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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          Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:

          <<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
          copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>

          I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
          the web?

          Joseph
          ================
          Joseph Codsi
          P.O. Box 116-2088
          Beirut, Lebanon
          Telephone (961) 1 423 145
          joseph5@...

          "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
          available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
          free reading in libraries today."

          Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
          December 2004
        • Timothy P. Jenney
          Tom Butler is correct to question whether he should publish to the web. It is one thing to send original work to select list members for review and feedback
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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            Tom Butler is correct to question whether he should publish to the web. It
            is one thing to send original work to select list members for review and
            feedback prior to publication [where confidentiality and non-distribution
            should be guaranteed]. It is quite another to make the work available to
            anyone and everyone who has a computer and a web connection.

            While Tom's copyright would still be intact, his ability to market the final
            version could be limited. A publisher might [rightly] consider that the
            market for a published commentary has been severely shrunken because its
            "near ancestor" was available in electronic form.

            Timothy P. Jenney
            Adj. Prof. NT
            Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
            -------

            > From: Joseph Codsi <joseph5@...>
            > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:39:35 +0300
            > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
            > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Activity
            >
            > Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
            >
            > <<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
            > copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
            >
            > I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
            > the web?
            >
            > Joseph
            > ================
            > Joseph Codsi
            > P.O. Box 116-2088
            > Beirut, Lebanon
            > Telephone (961) 1 423 145
            > joseph5@...
            >
            > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
            > available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
            > free reading in libraries today."
            >
            > Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
            > December 2004
            >
            >
            >
            >
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            > Yahoo! Groups Links
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
          • Lee Edgar Tyler
            ... Actually, publishing an essay on the web could strengthen one s copyright, because it would document a date by which the work had been created Ed Tyler
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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              Joseph Codsi wrote:

              >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
              >
              ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
              >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
              >
              >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
              >the web?
              >
              >Joseph
              >================
              >Joseph Codsi
              >P.O. Box 116-2088
              >Beirut, Lebanon
              >Telephone (961) 1 423 145
              >joseph5@...
              >
              >

              Actually, publishing an essay on the web could strengthen one's
              copyright, because it would document a date by which the work had been
              created

              Ed Tyler
            • Stephen C. Carlson
              ... That s how it used to be under the old U.S. copyright law, which has been changing to be in greater harmony with the copyright laws of Europe and the rest
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
                >
                ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
                >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                >
                >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
                >the web?

                That's how it used to be under the old U.S. copyright law,
                which has been changing to be in greater harmony with the
                copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.

                Stephen Carlson
                --
                Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
              • Tom Butler
                Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers, My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries is that the material that libraries are and will be converting to digital
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                  Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers,
                  My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries
                  is that the material that libraries are and will be
                  converting to digital format is already protected by
                  copyrights. I suppose that anything published on the
                  web is available to anyone with a computer, and is
                  therefore not considered protected by copyright. If
                  there were ever a dispute regarding material taken
                  from a web source without proper attribution, then I
                  suppose one could establish when the web site was
                  created and when a particular piece was placed on that
                  web site. However, it seems logical to me that a
                  court could determine that placing printed material on
                  a web site essentially means that it belongs to the
                  public domain unless the copyright was registered
                  prior to the appearance of that material on the web.
                  I will send an electronic copy of my commentary as
                  an attachment to anyone wishing to review it. In this
                  way I know who has a copy of it.

                  Tom Butler

                  --- Lee Edgar Tyler <leeedgartyler@...> wrote:

                  > Joseph Codsi wrote:
                  >
                  > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                  > He says:
                  > >
                  > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                  > suppose I would lose
                  > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                  > >
                  > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                  > publishing an essay on
                  > >the web?
                  > >
                  > >Joseph
                  > >================
                  > >Joseph Codsi
                  > >P.O. Box 116-2088
                  > >Beirut, Lebanon
                  > >Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                  > >joseph5@...
                  > >
                  > >
                  >
                  > Actually, publishing an essay on the web could
                  > strengthen one's
                  > copyright, because it would document a date by which
                  > the work had been
                  > created
                  >
                  > Ed Tyler


                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                • Tom Butler
                  Stephen, Could you say a little more? Does the change in the U.S. copyright law now indicate that material published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                    Stephen,
                    Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
                    U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
                    published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                    under copyright protection, or is there a process that
                    must be completed first?

                    Tom Butler

                    --- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
                    wrote:

                    > At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                    > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                    > He says:
                    > >
                    > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                    > suppose I would lose
                    > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                    > >
                    > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                    > publishing an essay on
                    > >the web?
                    >
                    > That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
                    > copyright law,
                    > which has been changing to be in greater harmony
                    > with the
                    > copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
                    >
                    > Stephen Carlson
                    > --
                    > Stephen C. Carlson
                    > mailto:scarlson@...
                    > Weblog:
                    > http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                    > Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
                    > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                    >
                    >
                    >
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                    >
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                    >
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                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >


                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  • Stephen C. Carlson
                    ... Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically secured, without the formalities of registration, once an original work of authorship is fixed in an
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                      At 02:14 PM 8/18/2005 -0700, Tom Butler wrote:
                      >Stephen,
                      > Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
                      >U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
                      >published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                      >under copyright protection, or is there a process that
                      >must be completed first?

                      Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically
                      secured, without the formalities of registration, once
                      an original work of authorship is fixed in an tangible
                      medium of expression. This is due to the passage of
                      the 1976 Copyright Act and the U.S.'s accession to the
                      Berne convention in 1989.

                      The Copyright Office's FAQ is here:
                      http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

                      This basically means that authors get copyright in the
                      U.S. immediately upon creation, though there are some
                      benefits to registering your copyright early and/or
                      before it is infringed. For advice specific to the
                      facts of your situation, I suggest you consult a
                      competent attorney with whom you have an attorney-
                      client relationship (not me).

                      That being said, the economic reasons not to do so,
                      as pointed out by others, may be very important.

                      Stephen Carlson

                      >Tom Butler
                      >
                      >--- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
                      >wrote:
                      >
                      >> At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                      >> >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                      >> He says:
                      >> >
                      >> ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                      >> suppose I would lose
                      >> >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                      >> >
                      >> >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                      >> publishing an essay on
                      >> >the web?
                      >>
                      >> That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
                      >> copyright law,
                      >> which has been changing to be in greater harmony
                      >> with the
                      >> copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
                      >>
                      >> Stephen Carlson
                      >> --
                      >> Stephen C. Carlson
                      >> mailto:scarlson@...
                      >> Weblog:
                      >> http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                      >> Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
                      >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                      >> johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                      >> johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                      >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                      >>
                      >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      >>
                      >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >>
                      >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                      >>
                      >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >>
                      >
                      >
                      ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      >
                      >
                      >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
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                      >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      >Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >

                      --
                      Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                      Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                      Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                    • Joseph Codsi
                      Timothy P. Jenney wrote:
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                        Timothy P. Jenney wrote:

                        <<While Tom's copyright would still be intact, his ability to market the
                        final version could be limited. A publisher might [rightly] consider
                        that the market for a published commentary has been severely shrunken
                        because its "near ancestor" was available in electronic form.>>

                        Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
                        the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
                        sell.

                        Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
                        posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
                        should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
                        same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

                        In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
                        their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
                        published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
                        reward.

                        But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
                        experience with us.

                        Cheers,

                        Joseph

                        ================
                        Joseph Codsi
                        P.O. Box 116-2088
                        Beirut, Lebanon
                        Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                        joseph5@...
                      • Peter Kirby
                        I haven t published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be visited by
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                          I haven't published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search
                          engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be
                          visited by robots). In particular, archive.org will keep a history of
                          all the changes made to a web page that is found by archive.org.

                          If an author wishes to share something with a select audience, he or she
                          has a few options (there may be more):

                          1. Send it as an attachment to those who request.
                          2. Upload it to an FTP site with a password.
                          3. Upload it to a website with a password and norobots flag.
                          4. Put it on CD-R, or even print it out, and mail it.

                          If Tom would like to do (2) or (3), he may contact me off-list for
                          assistance (and free hosting).

                          --
                          Peter Kirby (Undergrad in History at CSU Fullerton)
                          Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/
                        • Henry Sturcke
                          Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related publications, I m taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich dissertation,
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                            Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related
                            publications, I'm taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich
                            dissertation, Encountering the Rest of God: How Jesus Came to Personify
                            the Sabbath, has now been published by the Theologischer Verlag Zurich.

                            Chapter 5 treats the Sabbath in the Fourth Gospel, including exegetical
                            investigations of John 5:1-18, with the reference to it in 7:14-24, as
                            well as ch. 9. In addition, the resurrection appearances on two
                            successive Sunday evenings is dealt with.

                            North American distribution is through Eisenbrauns.

                            Best regards,
                            Henry Sturcke
                            University of Zurich
                          • Timothy P. Jenney
                            Joseph Codsi wrote ... Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                              Joseph Codsi wrote

                              > Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
                              > the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
                              > sell.

                              Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers
                              included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate very many
                              sales. This is very different from a textbook--especially a freshman
                              textbook--where the potential audience numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
                              Since both kinds of books require about the same amount of editing, proofing
                              and layout work, the profit margin for a successful book in either category
                              is vastly different.

                              > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
                              > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
                              > should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
                              > same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

                              I agree, at least in part. This forum is an excellent one for peer review.
                              It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets from presenting at the
                              various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of the commentary would be
                              improved. The market value is something else entirely.

                              > In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
                              > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
                              > published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
                              > reward.

                              Only about 2% of the writers in the US support themselves from writing. Most
                              of those are in the fiction categories: romances, thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                              Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's the money for movie
                              options [six figures US] that pays the bills. Similarly publishers lose
                              money on 98% of the books published in the US, despite their best efforts to
                              weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to publish.

                              Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make is about 5000 books
                              [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the author subsidizes the
                              printing cost]. This means a company must believe there are at least 5000
                              customers for book before they will commit to publish. If a book in an
                              already small market has been compromised by previous sales or distribution,
                              a publisher is going to pass.

                              So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on the internet may rob
                              someone of the chance to see his/her own work in print. On the other hand,
                              internet publishing does give one immediate satisfaction [I know this from
                              personal experience. See my web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                              >
                              > But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
                              > experience with us.
                              >
                              Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published many books, but I have
                              published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and served as an associate editor
                              for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also published some articles in
                              various magazines and anthologies--and some material on the web, as I
                              mentioned already, but mostly articles that I believe would have a very
                              limited readership. I also have a number of friends in the publishing
                              industry. In short, I have some experience to back up my assertions. Still,
                              there may be others, with more or less experience than I, that may have
                              different opinions.

                              I also know that purchasing books overseas can be extremely expensive:
                              tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping costs, etc. I
                              sympathize with those list members trying to build libraries under those
                              circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph included the following quote
                              from Michael Keller in his original posting:

                              "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                              available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
                              free reading in libraries today."

                              Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and understand the work that goes
                              into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want to see his hopes of
                              publishing [or making at least some money] diminished: "The workman is
                              worthy of his wages."

                              Anybody else want to chime in?

                              Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                              Adj. Prof, NT
                              Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                            • Tom Butler
                              Dear Joh_Lit Listers, I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for their comments. They have been very helpful. I have begun sending electronic copies
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                Dear Joh_Lit Listers,
                                I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for
                                their comments. They have been very helpful.
                                I have begun sending electronic copies of my
                                commentary on John to those who have requested them.
                                It is quite a lengthy attachment. I'm not clear what
                                the limitations are for this list, but I assume that
                                long attachments are not permitted on messages sent to
                                the list. I also assume that the full text would be
                                too long for a single e-mail message to the list. I
                                will take Dr. Jenney's comments regarding the limited
                                market for commentaries into careful consideration as
                                I determine whether or not to create a web site for
                                this commentary.
                                Self publishing, given the capability to format a
                                book and put it on a CD at my own computer, may be an
                                option as far as the publishing process for a small
                                market is concerned, but I'm still at a loss as to how
                                to market such a book. I've had my first book, Let
                                Her Keep It, on Amazon.com for some time and do sell a
                                few copies that way, but it is by no means a primary
                                way to market a book. Perhaps there are specialty web
                                pages that feature electronic books or books on the
                                web or books available on CDs. I admit I'm a newcomer
                                to this electronic publishing world, so I don't really
                                know what's out there or how to access it.
                                Not long ago Logos, which uses the Libronix Digital
                                Library System sold software that allows scholars to
                                publish articles or even books, using the electronic
                                sources that Logos markets as resources, so that the
                                author can include links, footnotes and extensive
                                references within the body of the author's text,
                                available to the reader who is equipped with those
                                same digital resources with the click of a mouse.
                                I've asked Logos to tell me how I might market a book
                                or article written using their software to other
                                people who own their software. They haven't answered
                                my question. I think they envisioned their system as
                                a way that one Biblical scholar could share with a
                                very limited group of other Biblical scholars on a
                                personal basis, but not on a marketing basis.
                                Obviously they are not likely to publish a list of the
                                people who own their software. I guess their only
                                other option would be to produce a web page in which
                                they feature works that have been created by their
                                customers and listing which resources someone wishing
                                to download such articles or books would need to
                                access all of the reference materials used in those
                                books or articles. That is another whole business. I
                                guess this is a whole new world in publishing.
                                Again, thanks for your help!

                                Dr. Thomas W. Butler,
                                Pastor Sparks United Methodist Church
                                Sparks, Nevada

                                --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
                                wrote:

                                > Joseph Codsi wrote
                                >
                                > > Publishers are interested in money. They would not
                                > hesitate to publish
                                > > the same thing for a second and third time if they
                                > know it's going to
                                > > sell.
                                >
                                > Individual commentaries rarely make much money for
                                > anyone, publishers
                                > included. There is simply not a large enough market
                                > to generate very many
                                > sales. This is very different from a
                                > textbook--especially a freshman
                                > textbook--where the potential audience numbers in
                                > the hundreds of thousands.
                                > Since both kinds of books require about the same
                                > amount of editing, proofing
                                > and layout work, the profit margin for a successful
                                > book in either category
                                > is vastly different.
                                >
                                > > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review
                                > should not worry about
                                > > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The
                                > discussion of his work
                                > > should allow him to improve it and increase its
                                > scholarly value. By the
                                > > same token, it seems to me, its market value will
                                > increase as well.
                                >
                                > I agree, at least in part. This forum is an
                                > excellent one for peer review.
                                > It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets
                                > from presenting at the
                                > various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of
                                > the commentary would be
                                > improved. The market value is something else
                                > entirely.
                                >
                                > > In the publishing world, very few are the authors
                                > who make a living from
                                > > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to
                                > have their work
                                > > published. The satisfaction of having been
                                > published is their main
                                > > reward.
                                >
                                > Only about 2% of the writers in the US support
                                > themselves from writing. Most
                                > of those are in the fiction categories: romances,
                                > thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                                > Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's
                                > the money for movie
                                > options [six figures US] that pays the bills.
                                > Similarly publishers lose
                                > money on 98% of the books published in the US,
                                > despite their best efforts to
                                > weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to
                                > publish.
                                >
                                > Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make
                                > is about 5000 books
                                > [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the
                                > author subsidizes the
                                > printing cost]. This means a company must believe
                                > there are at least 5000
                                > customers for book before they will commit to
                                > publish. If a book in an
                                > already small market has been compromised by
                                > previous sales or distribution,
                                > a publisher is going to pass.
                                >
                                > So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on
                                > the internet may rob
                                > someone of the chance to see his/her own work in
                                > print. On the other hand,
                                > internet publishing does give one immediate
                                > satisfaction [I know this from
                                > personal experience. See my web page:
                                > http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                                > >
                                > > But let's ask those who have published many books
                                > to share their
                                > > experience with us.
                                > >
                                > Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published
                                > many books, but I have
                                > published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and
                                > served as an associate editor
                                > for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also
                                > published some articles in
                                > various magazines and anthologies--and some material
                                > on the web, as I
                                > mentioned already, but mostly articles that I
                                > believe would have a very
                                > limited readership. I also have a number of friends
                                > in the publishing
                                > industry. In short, I have some experience to back
                                > up my assertions. Still,
                                > there may be others, with more or less experience
                                > than I, that may have
                                > different opinions.
                                >
                                > I also know that purchasing books overseas can be
                                > extremely expensive:
                                > tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping
                                > costs, etc. I
                                > sympathize with those list members trying to build
                                > libraries under those
                                > circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph
                                > included the following quote
                                > from Michael Keller in his original posting:
                                >
                                > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge
                                > will be digitized and
                                > available, one hopes for free reading on the
                                > Internet, just as there is
                                > free reading in libraries today."
                                >
                                > Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and
                                > understand the work that goes
                                > into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want
                                > to see his hopes of
                                > publishing [or making at least some money]
                                > diminished: "The workman is
                                > worthy of his wages."
                                >
                                > Anybody else want to chime in?
                                >
                                > Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                                > Adj. Prof, NT
                                > Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                                >
                                >
                                >
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                                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                              • Bob MacDonald
                                Tom good to hear from you again. I take it you ve been busy :). You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let Her Keep It - a book I remember
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                  Tom

                                  good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                                  You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                                  Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                                  thesis.

                                  I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                                  years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                                  good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                                  Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                                  the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                                  with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                                  it purely for gain :)

                                  The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                                  herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                                  exist till you climb it.

                                  I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                                  the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                                  stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                                  it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                                  have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                                  sample chapters since it changes too often to update...

                                  Bob

                                  Bob MacDonald
                                  http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                  Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                  Catch the foxes for us,
                                  the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                  for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                • pastor_t@pacbell.net
                                  Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
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                                    Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
                                    My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
                                    interest in my work.
                                    In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
                                    the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
                                    the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
                                    work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
                                    by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
                                    Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
                                    anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
                                    address.
                                    I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
                                    (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
                                    uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
                                    Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
                                    to review A Day with Jesus.
                                    I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
                                    requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
                                    Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
                                    quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
                                    referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

                                    Tom Butler

                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
                                    To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
                                    Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


                                    > Tom
                                    >
                                    > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                                    > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                                    > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                                    > thesis.
                                    >
                                    > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                                    > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                                    > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                                    > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                                    > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                                    > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                                    > it purely for gain :)
                                    >
                                    > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                                    > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                                    > exist till you climb it.
                                    >
                                    > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                                    > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                                    > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                                    > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                                    > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                                    > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
                                    >
                                    > Bob
                                    >
                                    > Bob MacDonald
                                    > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                    > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                    >
                                    > Catch the foxes for us,
                                    > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                    > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                    > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                    > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                    > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                    > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • Bob MacDonald
                                    Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                      Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
                                      Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
                                      John’s words for repentance concludes with:

                                      “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
                                      the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
                                      for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

                                      In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
                                      metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
                                      of repent, regret or remorse.“

                                      <<much snipped>>

                                      What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                      repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                                      It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                                      there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                                      of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                                      re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                                      Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                                      about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

                                      Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
                                      idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

                                      Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
                                      repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
                                      teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

                                      thanks

                                      Bob

                                      Bob MacDonald
                                      http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                      Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                      Catch the foxes for us,
                                      the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                      for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                    • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                      ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                        Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                        >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                                        the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                                        like).<<

                                        I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                                        Paraclete as "Comforter."

                                        But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                        Jeffery Hodges

                                        University Degrees:

                                        Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                        (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                        M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                        B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                        Email Address:

                                        jefferyhodges@...

                                        Blog:

                                        http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                        Office Address:

                                        Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                        Department of English Language and Literature
                                        Korea University
                                        136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                        Seoul
                                        South Korea

                                        Home Address:

                                        Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                        Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                        Sinnae-dong 795
                                        Jungrang-gu
                                        Seoul 131-770
                                        South Korea
                                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                        ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                          Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                          >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                                          the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                                          like).<<

                                          I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                                          Paraclete as "Comforter."

                                          But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                          Jeffery Hodges

                                          University Degrees:

                                          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                          Email Address:

                                          jefferyhodges@...

                                          Blog:

                                          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                          Office Address:

                                          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          Department of English Language and Literature
                                          Korea University
                                          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                          Seoul
                                          South Korea

                                          Home Address:

                                          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                          Sinnae-dong 795
                                          Jungrang-gu
                                          Seoul 131-770
                                          South Korea
                                        • Bob MacDonald
                                          HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                            HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                            The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
                                            Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
                                            side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
                                            imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
                                            rebuilder of the temple?

                                            Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
                                            Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
                                            English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
                                            word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
                                            Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
                                            and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
                                            mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
                                            initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                            repentance for Jew or Gentile.

                                            I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
                                            with an Author or author stretching for language to express
                                            and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

                                            reaching...

                                            Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
                                            sign? :)

                                            Bob

                                            Bob MacDonald
                                            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                            Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                            Catch the foxes for us,
                                            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                          • Q Bee
                                            On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                              On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                              (snip)

                                              > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                              > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                                              > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                                              > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                                              > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                                              > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                                              > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                                              > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                                              >
                                              From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                                              dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                                              can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                                              is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                                              'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                                              Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                                              First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                                              come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                                              returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                                              original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                                              unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                                              ________________

                                              This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                                              about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                                              might have been in the original language for the following:
                                              1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                                              20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                                              20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                                              21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                                              Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                                              final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                                              turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                                              disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                                              I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                                              the passage quoted.

                                              Peace,

                                              Elaine

                                              Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                                              Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                              of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                              Tacoma, WA
                                            • deborahmillier
                                              ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                Elaine wrote:

                                                > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                                should be
                                                > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                                saying), ...

                                                We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                                Elaine?


                                                > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                                as 'kingdom', but
                                                > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                                a
                                                > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                                individuals.

                                                Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                                means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                                sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                                dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                                                Shalom from Manila,
                                                --Michael Millier
                                              • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                ... another sign? :)
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                  Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                  >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                                                  another sign? :)<<

                                                  Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                                                  for signs.

                                                  The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                                                  of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                                                  something, anyway.

                                                  I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                                                  didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                                                  posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                                                  see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                                                  posted once.

                                                  Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                                                  times more.

                                                  Let's see what happens to this one.

                                                  Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                                  Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                                  thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                                  hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                                                  Jeffery Hodges

                                                  University Degrees:

                                                  Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                                  (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                                  M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                                  B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                                  Email Address:

                                                  jefferyhodges@...

                                                  Blog:

                                                  http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                                  Office Address:

                                                  Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                  Department of English Language and Literature
                                                  Korea University
                                                  136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                                  Seoul
                                                  South Korea

                                                  Home Address:

                                                  Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                  Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                                  Sinnae-dong 795
                                                  Jungrang-gu
                                                  Seoul 131-770
                                                  South Korea
                                                • Q Bee
                                                  ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                    On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                                                    > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                                                    >
                                                    > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                                    > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                                    > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                                    > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                                                    >
                                                    "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                                                    defendant.

                                                    NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                                                    advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                                                    sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                                                    terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                                                    spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                                                    of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                                                    is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                                                    represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                                                    returned to the Father.

                                                    Elaine

                                                    Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                                                    Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                                    of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                                    Tacoma, WA
                                                  • Q Bee
                                                    ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                      On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                                                      > Elaine wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                                      > should be
                                                      >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                                      > saying), ...
                                                      >
                                                      > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                                      > Elaine?
                                                      >
                                                      I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                                                      >
                                                      >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                                      > as 'kingdom', but
                                                      >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                                      > a
                                                      >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                                      > individuals.
                                                      >
                                                      > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                                      > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                                      > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                                      > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                                                      >
                                                      The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                                                      Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                                                      within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                                                      Peace from Tacoma,

                                                      Elaine
                                                    • Tom Butler
                                                      Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                        Bob,
                                                        I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                                        translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                                        as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                                        understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                                        term.
                                                        I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                                        partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                                        comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                                        largely because I see the relevance between the
                                                        Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                                        associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                                        49.
                                                        The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                                        the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                                        of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                                        conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                                        Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                                        body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                                        Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                                        to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                                        I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                                        this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                                        end without dipping my toe into it.

                                                        Yours in Christ's service,
                                                        Tom Butler


                                                        --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                        > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                                        > "Comforter"?
                                                        >
                                                        > The translators of some versions of John use
                                                        > comforter, why?
                                                        > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                                        > along
                                                        > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                                        > might
                                                        > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                                        > archetype as
                                                        > rebuilder of the temple?
                                                        >
                                                        > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                                        > on
                                                        > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                                        > there is an
                                                        > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                                        > this
                                                        > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                                        > the
                                                        > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                                        > righteousness
                                                        > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                                        > word might
                                                        > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                                        > to my
                                                        > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                                        > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                                        >
                                                        > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                                        > here,
                                                        > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                                        > express
                                                        > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                                        >
                                                        > reaching...
                                                        >
                                                        > Bob
                                                        >
                                                        > Bob MacDonald
                                                        > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                        > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                                        >
                                                        > Catch the foxes for us,
                                                        > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                                        > vineyards,
                                                        > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                        <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                      • Bob MacDonald
                                                        Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                          Bravo Tom

                                                          Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                                                          and you found it again.

                                                          I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                                                          paraclete and naham.

                                                          What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                                          repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                                                          both seems to be spelt the same!)

                                                          And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                                                          world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                                                          're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                                                          Bob

                                                          Bob MacDonald
                                                          http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                          Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                                          Catch the foxes for us,
                                                          the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                                          for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                                                          -----Original Message-----
                                                          From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                          [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                                          Tom Butler
                                                          Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                                                          To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                          Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                                                          Bob,
                                                          I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                                          translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                                          as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                                          understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                                          term.
                                                          I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                                          partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                                          comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                                          largely because I see the relevance between the
                                                          Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                                          associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                                          49.
                                                          The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                                          the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                                          of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                                          conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                                          Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                                          body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                                          Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                                          to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                                          I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                                          this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                                          end without dipping my toe into it.

                                                          Yours in Christ's service,
                                                          Tom Butler


                                                          --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                          > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                                          > "Comforter"?
                                                          >
                                                          > The translators of some versions of John use
                                                          > comforter, why?
                                                          > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                                          > along
                                                          > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                                          > might
                                                          > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                                          > archetype as
                                                          > rebuilder of the temple?
                                                          >
                                                          > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                                          > on
                                                          > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                                          > there is an
                                                          > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                                          > this
                                                          > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                                          > the
                                                          > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                                          > righteousness
                                                          > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                                          > word might
                                                          > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                                          > to my
                                                          > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                                          > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                                          >
                                                          > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                                          > here,
                                                          > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                                          > express
                                                          > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                                          >
                                                          > reaching...
                                                          >
                                                          > Bob
                                                          >
                                                          > Bob MacDonald
                                                          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                                          >
                                                          > Catch the foxes for us,
                                                          > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                                          > vineyards,
                                                          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                                                          Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                                                          Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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