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[John_Lit] Activity

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  • McGrath, James
    The problem is that no one has said anything! :-) James ***************************** Dr. James F. McGrath Assistant Professor of Religion Butler University,
    Message 1 of 28 , Aug 15, 2005
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      The problem is that no one has said anything! :-)

      James

      *****************************
      Dr. James F. McGrath
      Assistant Professor of Religion
      Butler University, Indianapolis
      http://religion.sytes.net
      *****************************



      -----Original Message-----
      From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Jack Kilmon
      Sent: Monday, August 15, 2005 2:51 PM
      To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [John_Lit] Activity


      Thereb has been no activityt since June 24. Anyone know what the
      problem is?
    • Rev. Jim Rudolph
      Tom, I would be interested in seeing your rough draft. Will you be posting a site for it on the listing, or what will you be doing? Jim Rudolph On Tue, 16
      Message 2 of 28 , Aug 16, 2005
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        Tom,

        I would be interested in seeing your "rough draft." Will you be posting
        a site for it on the listing, or what will you be doing?

        Jim Rudolph

        On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT) Tom Butler
        <pastor_t@...> writes:
        > John_Lit Listers,
        > I have just completed a rough draft of a commentary
        > on the Fourth Gospel. It is a long way from being
        > ready for publication, but I would be grateful for the
        > opportunity to submit it for your critical
        > examination. Please let me know if you are
        > interested.
        >
        > Tom Butler
        > Author of Let Her Keep It
        >
        > --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
        >
        > > Thereb has been no activityt since June 24. Anyone
        > > know what the
        > > problem is?
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
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        > > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
        > > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
        > >
        > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
        > >
        > > Yahoo! Groups Links
        > >
        > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
        > >
        > > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        > >
        >
        >
        > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's
        > service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        > <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
        > Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        >
        >
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        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
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        >
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        >
      • Tom Butler
        Jim, Prior to publishing Let Her Keep It, I summarized the material in sequential messages to an on-line discussion group, which posed questions and challenged
        Message 3 of 28 , Aug 17, 2005
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          Jim,
          Prior to publishing Let Her Keep It, I summarized
          the material in sequential messages to an on-line
          discussion group, which posed questions and challenged
          my assumptions. That was a helpful process, but
          nothing like a critical review by scholars.
          Perhaps those on the list with experience in doing
          this could guide me. How does one submit an
          unpublished work for critical review? I hesitate to
          publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
          copyright privileges to the material in that way.
          I would be pleased to send an electronic copy to
          anyone who would offer a review.

          Tom Butler

          --- "Rev. Jim Rudolph" <jcrudolph@...> wrote:

          > Tom,
          >
          > I would be interested in seeing your "rough draft."
          > Will you be posting a site for it on the listing, >
          or what will you be doing?
          >
          > Jim Rudolph
          >
          > > On Tue, 16 Aug 2005 07:33:01 -0700 (PDT)
          > > Tom Butler <pastor_t@...> writes:
          > >
          > > John_Lit Listers,
          > > I have just completed a rough draft of a
          > > commentary on the Fourth Gospel. It is a long >
          > way from being ready for publication, but I would >
          > be grateful for the opportunity to submit it for > >
          your critical examination. Please let me know if > >
          you are interested.
          > >
          > > Tom Butler
          > > Author of Let Her Keep It
          > >
          > > --- Jack Kilmon <jkilmon@...> wrote:
          > >
          > > > There has been no activity since June 24.
          > > > Anyone know what the problem is?

          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
        • Joseph Codsi
          Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
          Message 4 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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            Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:

            <<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
            copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>

            I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
            the web?

            Joseph
            ================
            Joseph Codsi
            P.O. Box 116-2088
            Beirut, Lebanon
            Telephone (961) 1 423 145
            joseph5@...

            "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
            available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
            free reading in libraries today."

            Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
            December 2004
          • Timothy P. Jenney
            Tom Butler is correct to question whether he should publish to the web. It is one thing to send original work to select list members for review and feedback
            Message 5 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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              Tom Butler is correct to question whether he should publish to the web. It
              is one thing to send original work to select list members for review and
              feedback prior to publication [where confidentiality and non-distribution
              should be guaranteed]. It is quite another to make the work available to
              anyone and everyone who has a computer and a web connection.

              While Tom's copyright would still be intact, his ability to market the final
              version could be limited. A publisher might [rightly] consider that the
              market for a published commentary has been severely shrunken because its
              "near ancestor" was available in electronic form.

              Timothy P. Jenney
              Adj. Prof. NT
              Asbury Theological Seminary-Orlando
              -------

              > From: Joseph Codsi <joseph5@...>
              > Reply-To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thu, 18 Aug 2005 15:39:35 +0300
              > To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
              > Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Activity
              >
              > Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
              >
              > <<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
              > copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
              >
              > I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
              > the web?
              >
              > Joseph
              > ================
              > Joseph Codsi
              > P.O. Box 116-2088
              > Beirut, Lebanon
              > Telephone (961) 1 423 145
              > joseph5@...
              >
              > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
              > available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
              > free reading in libraries today."
              >
              > Michael A. Keller, Stanford University head librarian.
              > December 2004
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
              > MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
            • Lee Edgar Tyler
              ... Actually, publishing an essay on the web could strengthen one s copyright, because it would document a date by which the work had been created Ed Tyler
              Message 6 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                Joseph Codsi wrote:

                >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
                >
                ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
                >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                >
                >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
                >the web?
                >
                >Joseph
                >================
                >Joseph Codsi
                >P.O. Box 116-2088
                >Beirut, Lebanon
                >Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                >joseph5@...
                >
                >

                Actually, publishing an essay on the web could strengthen one's
                copyright, because it would document a date by which the work had been
                created

                Ed Tyler
              • Stephen C. Carlson
                ... That s how it used to be under the old U.S. copyright law, which has been changing to be in greater harmony with the copyright laws of Europe and the rest
                Message 7 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                  At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                  >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges. He says:
                  >
                  ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I suppose I would lose
                  >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                  >
                  >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by publishing an essay on
                  >the web?

                  That's how it used to be under the old U.S. copyright law,
                  which has been changing to be in greater harmony with the
                  copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.

                  Stephen Carlson
                  --
                  Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                  Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                  Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                • Tom Butler
                  Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers, My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries is that the material that libraries are and will be converting to digital
                  Message 8 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                    Lee, Joseph and John_Lit Listers,
                    My understanding of the plans to digitize libraries
                    is that the material that libraries are and will be
                    converting to digital format is already protected by
                    copyrights. I suppose that anything published on the
                    web is available to anyone with a computer, and is
                    therefore not considered protected by copyright. If
                    there were ever a dispute regarding material taken
                    from a web source without proper attribution, then I
                    suppose one could establish when the web site was
                    created and when a particular piece was placed on that
                    web site. However, it seems logical to me that a
                    court could determine that placing printed material on
                    a web site essentially means that it belongs to the
                    public domain unless the copyright was registered
                    prior to the appearance of that material on the web.
                    I will send an electronic copy of my commentary as
                    an attachment to anyone wishing to review it. In this
                    way I know who has a copy of it.

                    Tom Butler

                    --- Lee Edgar Tyler <leeedgartyler@...> wrote:

                    > Joseph Codsi wrote:
                    >
                    > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                    > He says:
                    > >
                    > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                    > suppose I would lose
                    > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                    > >
                    > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                    > publishing an essay on
                    > >the web?
                    > >
                    > >Joseph
                    > >================
                    > >Joseph Codsi
                    > >P.O. Box 116-2088
                    > >Beirut, Lebanon
                    > >Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                    > >joseph5@...
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    > Actually, publishing an essay on the web could
                    > strengthen one's
                    > copyright, because it would document a date by which
                    > the work had been
                    > created
                    >
                    > Ed Tyler


                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                  • Tom Butler
                    Stephen, Could you say a little more? Does the change in the U.S. copyright law now indicate that material published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                    Message 9 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                      Stephen,
                      Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
                      U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
                      published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                      under copyright protection, or is there a process that
                      must be completed first?

                      Tom Butler

                      --- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
                      wrote:

                      > At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                      > >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                      > He says:
                      > >
                      > ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                      > suppose I would lose
                      > >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                      > >
                      > >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                      > publishing an essay on
                      > >the web?
                      >
                      > That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
                      > copyright law,
                      > which has been changing to be in greater harmony
                      > with the
                      > copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
                      >
                      > Stephen Carlson
                      > --
                      > Stephen C. Carlson
                      > mailto:scarlson@...
                      > Weblog:
                      > http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                      > Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
                      > http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                      >
                      >
                      >
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                      > johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
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                      >
                      http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                      >
                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                      >
                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                      >
                      > johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >


                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                      <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                    • Stephen C. Carlson
                      ... Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically secured, without the formalities of registration, once an original work of authorship is fixed in an
                      Message 10 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                        At 02:14 PM 8/18/2005 -0700, Tom Butler wrote:
                        >Stephen,
                        > Could you say a little more? Does the change in the
                        >U.S. copyright law now indicate that material
                        >published on the web is, by virtue of that medium,
                        >under copyright protection, or is there a process that
                        >must be completed first?

                        Under U.S. copyright law, copyright is automatically
                        secured, without the formalities of registration, once
                        an original work of authorship is fixed in an tangible
                        medium of expression. This is due to the passage of
                        the 1976 Copyright Act and the U.S.'s accession to the
                        Berne convention in 1989.

                        The Copyright Office's FAQ is here:
                        http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html

                        This basically means that authors get copyright in the
                        U.S. immediately upon creation, though there are some
                        benefits to registering your copyright early and/or
                        before it is infringed. For advice specific to the
                        facts of your situation, I suggest you consult a
                        competent attorney with whom you have an attorney-
                        client relationship (not me).

                        That being said, the economic reasons not to do so,
                        as pointed out by others, may be very important.

                        Stephen Carlson

                        >Tom Butler
                        >
                        >--- "Stephen C. Carlson" <scarlson@...>
                        >wrote:
                        >
                        >> At 03:39 PM 8/18/2005 +0300, Joseph Codsi wrote:
                        >> >Tom Butler is worrying about copyright privileges.
                        >> He says:
                        >> >
                        >> ><<I hesitate to publish it on a web site, since I
                        >> suppose I would lose
                        >> >copyright privileges to the material in that way.>>
                        >> >
                        >> >I am confused. How can one lose one's rights by
                        >> publishing an essay on
                        >> >the web?
                        >>
                        >> That's how it used to be under the old U.S.
                        >> copyright law,
                        >> which has been changing to be in greater harmony
                        >> with the
                        >> copyright laws of Europe and the rest of the world.
                        >>
                        >> Stephen Carlson
                        >> --
                        >> Stephen C. Carlson
                        >> mailto:scarlson@...
                        >> Weblog:
                        >> http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                        >> Author of: The Gospel Hoax,
                        >> http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >> SUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                        >> johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >> UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail
                        >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >> PROBLEMS?: e-mail
                        >> johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        >> MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                        >>
                        >http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                        >>
                        >> Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >>
                        >> http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/
                        >>
                        >> johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >>
                        >
                        >
                        ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        ><DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                        >
                        >
                        >SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        >PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                        >MESSAGE ARCHIVE: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                        >Yahoo! Groups Links
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        >

                        --
                        Stephen C. Carlson mailto:scarlson@...
                        Weblog: http://www.hypotyposeis.org/weblog/
                        Author of: The Gospel Hoax, http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1932792481
                      • Joseph Codsi
                        Timothy P. Jenney wrote:
                        Message 11 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                          Timothy P. Jenney wrote:

                          <<While Tom's copyright would still be intact, his ability to market the
                          final version could be limited. A publisher might [rightly] consider
                          that the market for a published commentary has been severely shrunken
                          because its "near ancestor" was available in electronic form.>>

                          Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
                          the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
                          sell.

                          Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
                          posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
                          should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
                          same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

                          In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
                          their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
                          published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
                          reward.

                          But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
                          experience with us.

                          Cheers,

                          Joseph

                          ================
                          Joseph Codsi
                          P.O. Box 116-2088
                          Beirut, Lebanon
                          Telephone (961) 1 423 145
                          joseph5@...
                        • Peter Kirby
                          I haven t published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be visited by
                          Message 12 of 28 , Aug 18, 2005
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                            I haven't published a book, but one thing to keep in mind is that search
                            engines keep a cache of websites (unless the site is marked not to be
                            visited by robots). In particular, archive.org will keep a history of
                            all the changes made to a web page that is found by archive.org.

                            If an author wishes to share something with a select audience, he or she
                            has a few options (there may be more):

                            1. Send it as an attachment to those who request.
                            2. Upload it to an FTP site with a password.
                            3. Upload it to a website with a password and norobots flag.
                            4. Put it on CD-R, or even print it out, and mail it.

                            If Tom would like to do (2) or (3), he may contact me off-list for
                            assistance (and free hosting).

                            --
                            Peter Kirby (Undergrad in History at CSU Fullerton)
                            Web Site: http://www.peterkirby.com/
                          • Henry Sturcke
                            Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related publications, I m taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich dissertation,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                              Since I know that some listers keep bibliographies of Johannine-related
                              publications, I'm taking the liberty of mentioning that my 2003 Zurich
                              dissertation, Encountering the Rest of God: How Jesus Came to Personify
                              the Sabbath, has now been published by the Theologischer Verlag Zurich.

                              Chapter 5 treats the Sabbath in the Fourth Gospel, including exegetical
                              investigations of John 5:1-18, with the reference to it in 7:14-24, as
                              well as ch. 9. In addition, the resurrection appearances on two
                              successive Sunday evenings is dealt with.

                              North American distribution is through Eisenbrauns.

                              Best regards,
                              Henry Sturcke
                              University of Zurich
                            • Timothy P. Jenney
                              Joseph Codsi wrote ... Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate
                              Message 14 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                Joseph Codsi wrote

                                > Publishers are interested in money. They would not hesitate to publish
                                > the same thing for a second and third time if they know it's going to
                                > sell.

                                Individual commentaries rarely make much money for anyone, publishers
                                included. There is simply not a large enough market to generate very many
                                sales. This is very different from a textbook--especially a freshman
                                textbook--where the potential audience numbers in the hundreds of thousands.
                                Since both kinds of books require about the same amount of editing, proofing
                                and layout work, the profit margin for a successful book in either category
                                is vastly different.

                                > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review should not worry about
                                > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The discussion of his work
                                > should allow him to improve it and increase its scholarly value. By the
                                > same token, it seems to me, its market value will increase as well.

                                I agree, at least in part. This forum is an excellent one for peer review.
                                It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets from presenting at the
                                various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of the commentary would be
                                improved. The market value is something else entirely.

                                > In the publishing world, very few are the authors who make a living from
                                > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to have their work
                                > published. The satisfaction of having been published is their main
                                > reward.

                                Only about 2% of the writers in the US support themselves from writing. Most
                                of those are in the fiction categories: romances, thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                                Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's the money for movie
                                options [six figures US] that pays the bills. Similarly publishers lose
                                money on 98% of the books published in the US, despite their best efforts to
                                weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to publish.

                                Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make is about 5000 books
                                [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the author subsidizes the
                                printing cost]. This means a company must believe there are at least 5000
                                customers for book before they will commit to publish. If a book in an
                                already small market has been compromised by previous sales or distribution,
                                a publisher is going to pass.

                                So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on the internet may rob
                                someone of the chance to see his/her own work in print. On the other hand,
                                internet publishing does give one immediate satisfaction [I know this from
                                personal experience. See my web page: http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                                >
                                > But let's ask those who have published many books to share their
                                > experience with us.
                                >
                                Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published many books, but I have
                                published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and served as an associate editor
                                for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also published some articles in
                                various magazines and anthologies--and some material on the web, as I
                                mentioned already, but mostly articles that I believe would have a very
                                limited readership. I also have a number of friends in the publishing
                                industry. In short, I have some experience to back up my assertions. Still,
                                there may be others, with more or less experience than I, that may have
                                different opinions.

                                I also know that purchasing books overseas can be extremely expensive:
                                tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping costs, etc. I
                                sympathize with those list members trying to build libraries under those
                                circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph included the following quote
                                from Michael Keller in his original posting:

                                "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge will be digitized and
                                available, one hopes for free reading on the Internet, just as there is
                                free reading in libraries today."

                                Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and understand the work that goes
                                into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want to see his hopes of
                                publishing [or making at least some money] diminished: "The workman is
                                worthy of his wages."

                                Anybody else want to chime in?

                                Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                                Adj. Prof, NT
                                Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                              • Tom Butler
                                Dear Joh_Lit Listers, I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for their comments. They have been very helpful. I have begun sending electronic copies
                                Message 15 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                  Dear Joh_Lit Listers,
                                  I want to thank Joseph Codsi and Timothy Jenney for
                                  their comments. They have been very helpful.
                                  I have begun sending electronic copies of my
                                  commentary on John to those who have requested them.
                                  It is quite a lengthy attachment. I'm not clear what
                                  the limitations are for this list, but I assume that
                                  long attachments are not permitted on messages sent to
                                  the list. I also assume that the full text would be
                                  too long for a single e-mail message to the list. I
                                  will take Dr. Jenney's comments regarding the limited
                                  market for commentaries into careful consideration as
                                  I determine whether or not to create a web site for
                                  this commentary.
                                  Self publishing, given the capability to format a
                                  book and put it on a CD at my own computer, may be an
                                  option as far as the publishing process for a small
                                  market is concerned, but I'm still at a loss as to how
                                  to market such a book. I've had my first book, Let
                                  Her Keep It, on Amazon.com for some time and do sell a
                                  few copies that way, but it is by no means a primary
                                  way to market a book. Perhaps there are specialty web
                                  pages that feature electronic books or books on the
                                  web or books available on CDs. I admit I'm a newcomer
                                  to this electronic publishing world, so I don't really
                                  know what's out there or how to access it.
                                  Not long ago Logos, which uses the Libronix Digital
                                  Library System sold software that allows scholars to
                                  publish articles or even books, using the electronic
                                  sources that Logos markets as resources, so that the
                                  author can include links, footnotes and extensive
                                  references within the body of the author's text,
                                  available to the reader who is equipped with those
                                  same digital resources with the click of a mouse.
                                  I've asked Logos to tell me how I might market a book
                                  or article written using their software to other
                                  people who own their software. They haven't answered
                                  my question. I think they envisioned their system as
                                  a way that one Biblical scholar could share with a
                                  very limited group of other Biblical scholars on a
                                  personal basis, but not on a marketing basis.
                                  Obviously they are not likely to publish a list of the
                                  people who own their software. I guess their only
                                  other option would be to produce a web page in which
                                  they feature works that have been created by their
                                  customers and listing which resources someone wishing
                                  to download such articles or books would need to
                                  access all of the reference materials used in those
                                  books or articles. That is another whole business. I
                                  guess this is a whole new world in publishing.
                                  Again, thanks for your help!

                                  Dr. Thomas W. Butler,
                                  Pastor Sparks United Methodist Church
                                  Sparks, Nevada

                                  --- "Timothy P. Jenney" <drjenney@...>
                                  wrote:

                                  > Joseph Codsi wrote
                                  >
                                  > > Publishers are interested in money. They would not
                                  > hesitate to publish
                                  > > the same thing for a second and third time if they
                                  > know it's going to
                                  > > sell.
                                  >
                                  > Individual commentaries rarely make much money for
                                  > anyone, publishers
                                  > included. There is simply not a large enough market
                                  > to generate very many
                                  > sales. This is very different from a
                                  > textbook--especially a freshman
                                  > textbook--where the potential audience numbers in
                                  > the hundreds of thousands.
                                  > Since both kinds of books require about the same
                                  > amount of editing, proofing
                                  > and layout work, the profit margin for a successful
                                  > book in either category
                                  > is vastly different.
                                  >
                                  > > Someone like Tom who is interested in peer review
                                  > should not worry about
                                  > > posting his article on Johannine Literature. The
                                  > discussion of his work
                                  > > should allow him to improve it and increase its
                                  > scholarly value. By the
                                  > > same token, it seems to me, its market value will
                                  > increase as well.
                                  >
                                  > I agree, at least in part. This forum is an
                                  > excellent one for peer review.
                                  > It's an electronic version of the feedback one gets
                                  > from presenting at the
                                  > various SBL venues. Yes, I also think the quality of
                                  > the commentary would be
                                  > improved. The market value is something else
                                  > entirely.
                                  >
                                  > > In the publishing world, very few are the authors
                                  > who make a living from
                                  > > their copyrights. Most people would be lucky to
                                  > have their work
                                  > > published. The satisfaction of having been
                                  > published is their main
                                  > > reward.
                                  >
                                  > Only about 2% of the writers in the US support
                                  > themselves from writing. Most
                                  > of those are in the fiction categories: romances,
                                  > thrillers, sci-fi, etc.
                                  > Many of these would starve on book sales alone. It's
                                  > the money for movie
                                  > options [six figures US] that pays the bills.
                                  > Similarly publishers lose
                                  > money on 98% of the books published in the US,
                                  > despite their best efforts to
                                  > weed out those that won't sell before agreeing to
                                  > publish.
                                  >
                                  > Still, the smallest print run a publisher will make
                                  > is about 5000 books
                                  > [except for so-called "vanity presses," where the
                                  > author subsidizes the
                                  > printing cost]. This means a company must believe
                                  > there are at least 5000
                                  > customers for book before they will commit to
                                  > publish. If a book in an
                                  > already small market has been compromised by
                                  > previous sales or distribution,
                                  > a publisher is going to pass.
                                  >
                                  > So, it's not just a money issue. Open publishing on
                                  > the internet may rob
                                  > someone of the chance to see his/her own work in
                                  > print. On the other hand,
                                  > internet publishing does give one immediate
                                  > satisfaction [I know this from
                                  > personal experience. See my web page:
                                  > http://home.earthlink.net/~drjenney/%5d.
                                  > >
                                  > > But let's ask those who have published many books
                                  > to share their
                                  > > experience with us.
                                  > >
                                  > Hmmm. I don't think I qualify as having published
                                  > many books, but I have
                                  > published with both Zondervan and Eerdmans and
                                  > served as an associate editor
                                  > for the latter's Bible dictionary. I have also
                                  > published some articles in
                                  > various magazines and anthologies--and some material
                                  > on the web, as I
                                  > mentioned already, but mostly articles that I
                                  > believe would have a very
                                  > limited readership. I also have a number of friends
                                  > in the publishing
                                  > industry. In short, I have some experience to back
                                  > up my assertions. Still,
                                  > there may be others, with more or less experience
                                  > than I, that may have
                                  > different opinions.
                                  >
                                  > I also know that purchasing books overseas can be
                                  > extremely expensive:
                                  > tariffs, trade barriers, exchange rates and shipping
                                  > costs, etc. I
                                  > sympathize with those list members trying to build
                                  > libraries under those
                                  > circumstances. Presumably, this is why Joseph
                                  > included the following quote
                                  > from Michael Keller in his original posting:
                                  >
                                  > "Within two decades, most of the world's knowledge
                                  > will be digitized and
                                  > available, one hopes for free reading on the
                                  > Internet, just as there is
                                  > free reading in libraries today."
                                  >
                                  > Nevertheless, I have written a commentary and
                                  > understand the work that goes
                                  > into it. I wish Tom the very best and would not want
                                  > to see his hopes of
                                  > publishing [or making at least some money]
                                  > diminished: "The workman is
                                  > worthy of his wages."
                                  >
                                  > Anybody else want to chime in?
                                  >
                                  > Dr. Timothy P. Jenney
                                  > Adj. Prof, NT
                                  > Asbury theological Seminary-Orlando
                                  >
                                  >
                                  >
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                                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                  <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                • Bob MacDonald
                                  Tom good to hear from you again. I take it you ve been busy :). You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let Her Keep It - a book I remember
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Aug 19, 2005
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                                    Tom

                                    good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                                    You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                                    Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                                    thesis.

                                    I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                                    years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                                    good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                                    Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                                    the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                                    with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                                    it purely for gain :)

                                    The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                                    herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                                    exist till you climb it.

                                    I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                                    the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                                    stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                                    it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                                    have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                                    sample chapters since it changes too often to update...

                                    Bob

                                    Bob MacDonald
                                    http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                    Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                    Catch the foxes for us,
                                    the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                    for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                  • pastor_t@pacbell.net
                                    Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers, My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an interest in my work. In replying to your message, Bob,
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Aug 24, 2005
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                                      Dear Bob and All John_Lit Listers,
                                      My thanks to all of you who have offered suggestions and expressed an
                                      interest in my work.
                                      In replying to your message, Bob, I inadvertently sent an attachment to
                                      the John_Lit list with my commentary on it. It bounced back to me because
                                      the message was too big for the list, so now I know that I cannot share my
                                      work with the entire list (at least, not as an attachment and probably not
                                      by including the entire work in the body of the e-mail message). Judith
                                      Kowalski has suggested that I mail a CD. I would be glad to send a CD to
                                      anyone who wants to send me (off list if you prefer) your snail mail
                                      address.
                                      I am calling my commentary A Day with Jesus. In its present format
                                      (taught as an adult education course at Sparks United Methodist Church), it
                                      uses Let Her Keep It as a secondary text. I will gladly mail a free copy of
                                      Let Her Keep It to anyone who does not already have one and who is offering
                                      to review A Day with Jesus.
                                      I am still considering Peter Kirby's offer to create a web site that
                                      requires a password to enter. I think it would be necessary to place Let Her
                                      Keep It on the same web site, or create links that would allow reviewers to
                                      quickly and easily see the material in Let Her Keep It to which I am
                                      referring. I suspect that will be a time consuming process, right Peter?

                                      Tom Butler

                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      From: "Bob MacDonald" <bobmacdonald@...>
                                      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
                                      Sent: Friday, August 19, 2005 5:37 PM
                                      Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Web Publishing


                                      > Tom
                                      >
                                      > good to hear from you again. I take it you've been busy :).
                                      > You may remember me as one of your miserable critics on Let
                                      > Her Keep It - a book I remember with fondness for its
                                      > thesis.
                                      >
                                      > I have been studying writing and publishing for a couple of
                                      > years now. The simple publishing fact is that a book needs
                                      > good promotion - it is as costly to sell as it is to create.
                                      > Maybe those of us who look askance at sellers will realize
                                      > the brilliance of the selling job that eventually happened
                                      > with our beloved texts including G John - though some may do
                                      > it purely for gain :)
                                      >
                                      > The second fact is that the writer writes for him or
                                      > herself - it is such a stretch - a mountain that does not
                                      > exist till you climb it.
                                      >
                                      > I would welcome a look at your draft commentary - I am in
                                      > the second year of revision of my own story (49 short
                                      > stories under the title of Seen from the Street) - whether
                                      > it will ever see the light of a cover I do not know. I did
                                      > have it on my web pages but have withdrawn all but a few
                                      > sample chapters since it changes too often to update...
                                      >
                                      > Bob
                                      >
                                      > Bob MacDonald
                                      > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                      > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                      >
                                      > Catch the foxes for us,
                                      > the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                      > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > SUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-subscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > UNSUBSCRIBE: e-mail johannine_literature-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                      > PROBLEMS?: e-mail johannine_literature-owner@yahoogroups.com
                                      > MESSAGE ARCHIVE:
                                      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/johannine_literature/messages
                                      > Yahoo! Groups Links
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                      >
                                    • Bob MacDonald
                                      Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and John’s words for repentance concludes with:
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                        Crossley’s article in Journal for the study of the
                                        Historical Jesus June 2004 (the free sample) on Jesus and
                                        John’s words for repentance concludes with:

                                        “The Semitic background makes it overwhelmingly likely that
                                        the teshubah concept of repentance is the correct background
                                        for the teaching of John and Jesus on repentance.

                                        In contrast to this, NXM, the Hebrew equivalent of
                                        metanoe/w, is not well attested, at least not in the sense
                                        of repent, regret or remorse.“

                                        <<much snipped>>

                                        What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                        repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                                        It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                                        there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                                        of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                                        re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                                        Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                                        about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)

                                        Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in the
                                        idea of God’s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).

                                        Has anyone done a study on Paraclete and its relationship to
                                        repentance and building as Crossley did with the article on
                                        teshuvah and metanoia quoted above?

                                        thanks

                                        Bob

                                        Bob MacDonald
                                        http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                        Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                        Catch the foxes for us,
                                        the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                        for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                      • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                        ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                          Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                          >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                                          the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                                          like).<<

                                          I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                                          Paraclete as "Comforter."

                                          But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                          Jeffery Hodges

                                          University Degrees:

                                          Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                          (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                          M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                          B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                          Email Address:

                                          jefferyhodges@...

                                          Blog:

                                          http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                          Office Address:

                                          Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          Department of English Language and Literature
                                          Korea University
                                          136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                          Seoul
                                          South Korea

                                          Home Address:

                                          Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                          Sinnae-dong 795
                                          Jungrang-gu
                                          Seoul 131-770
                                          South Korea
                                        • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                          ... the idea of God s comforting Israel (NXM or the like).
                                          Message 20 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                            Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                            >>Seems to me that Paraclete has a plausible origin in
                                            the idea of God's comforting Israel (NXM or the
                                            like).<<

                                            I take it that your query concerns the role of the
                                            Paraclete as "Comforter."

                                            But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                            Jeffery Hodges

                                            University Degrees:

                                            Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                            (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                            M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                            B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                            Email Address:

                                            jefferyhodges@...

                                            Blog:

                                            http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                            Office Address:

                                            Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                            Department of English Language and Literature
                                            Korea University
                                            136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                            Seoul
                                            South Korea

                                            Home Address:

                                            Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                            Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                            Sinnae-dong 795
                                            Jungrang-gu
                                            Seoul 131-770
                                            South Korea
                                          • Bob MacDonald
                                            HJH wrote: But does the term Paraclete mean Comforter ? The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why? Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah?
                                            Message 21 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                              HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean "Comforter"?

                                              The translators of some versions of John use comforter, why?
                                              Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming along
                                              side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort might
                                              imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an archetype as
                                              rebuilder of the temple?

                                              Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations on
                                              Paraclete without getting any answer on whether there is an
                                              English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to this
                                              word. That is the import of my question. The role of the
                                              Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of righteousness
                                              and of judgment gives some indication of what the word might
                                              mean - but where does it come from and with respect to my
                                              initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                              repentance for Jew or Gentile.

                                              I seems to me there might be an early or late idea here,
                                              with an Author or author stretching for language to express
                                              and invite a response within and beyond tradition.

                                              reaching...

                                              Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this another
                                              sign? :)

                                              Bob

                                              Bob MacDonald
                                              http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                              Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                              Catch the foxes for us,
                                              the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                              for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)
                                            • Q Bee
                                              On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote: (snip) ... From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be dealing with if we are to
                                              Message 22 of 28 , Sep 26, 2005
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                                                On Sep 26, 2005, at 8:03 PM, Bob MacDonald wrote:

                                                (snip)

                                                > What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                                > repentance) and naham the root of comfort?

                                                > It occurred to me reading Crossley about repentance that as
                                                > there is a translation discontinuity between the repentance
                                                > of ‘thinking again’ and ‘turning’, and a distinction of the
                                                > re-turning of the Jews vs the change of mind of the
                                                > Gentiles, so also there is a concept of repentance brought
                                                > about by the presence of the Spirit (John 16:8)
                                                >
                                                From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we should be
                                                dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been saying), we
                                                can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated as 'kingdom', but
                                                is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of a
                                                'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of individuals.
                                                Neil Douglas-Klotz says:

                                                First, the word usually translated as "repent" can also mean to return,
                                                come again, flow back, ebb. Its roots show something that turns or
                                                returns (T), as though in a circle or spiral, to its origin or to its
                                                original rhythm (AB). In the Hebrew-Aramaic sense, to repent means to
                                                unite with something by affinity, because it feels like going home.
                                                ________________

                                                This sense of 'repent' as turning or returning leads me to speculate
                                                about the times that the word 'turned' is used in 4G and what the sense
                                                might have been in the original language for the following:
                                                1:38: Jesus turned and saw them following him ...
                                                20:14: When she had said this she turned around and saw Jesus there...
                                                20:16: She turned to him and said to him [in Hebrew]...
                                                21:20: Peter turned and saw the disciple following whom Jesus loved,...

                                                Does anyone have an insights on this set of phrases? ISTM that the
                                                final one is an example of turning in the wrong manner, as Peter is
                                                turning in order to cause separation by questioning whether the beloved
                                                disciple should be among them and is chastised by Jesus.

                                                I hope this is not too far off the original topic, but 'repent' is in
                                                the passage quoted.

                                                Peace,

                                                Elaine

                                                Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette, Provost
                                                Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                                of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                                Tacoma, WA
                                              • deborahmillier
                                                ... should be ... saying), ... We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don t you think, Elaine? ... as kingdom , but ... a ... individuals. Pardon me,
                                                Message 23 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                  Elaine wrote:

                                                  > From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                                  should be
                                                  > dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                                  saying), ...

                                                  We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                                  Elaine?


                                                  > we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                                  as 'kingdom', but
                                                  > is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                                  a
                                                  > 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                                  individuals.

                                                  Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                                  means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                                  sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                                  dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)

                                                  Shalom from Manila,
                                                  --Michael Millier
                                                • Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                  ... another sign? :)
                                                  Message 24 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                    Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                    >>Jeffery, your post has come three times - is this
                                                    another sign? :)<<

                                                    Ah, this faithless and evil generation, ever asking
                                                    for signs.

                                                    The only sign is a sign like that of Jonah . . . sort
                                                    of. Well, there's three posts, and that's three of
                                                    something, anyway.

                                                    I don't know why it posted three times. The first one
                                                    didn't post, I thought. I sent it again, and that one
                                                    posted. Now that I've just opened up my mail again, I
                                                    see that my second one posted twice, and my first one
                                                    posted once.

                                                    Perhaps if I sent a third time, it would post three
                                                    times more.

                                                    Let's see what happens to this one.

                                                    Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                                    Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                                    thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                                    hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.

                                                    Jeffery Hodges

                                                    University Degrees:

                                                    Ph.D., History, U.C. Berkeley
                                                    (Doctoral Thesis: "Food as Synecdoche in John's Gospel and Gnostic Texts")
                                                    M.A., History of Science, U.C. Berkeley
                                                    B.A., English Language and Literature, Baylor University

                                                    Email Address:

                                                    jefferyhodges@...

                                                    Blog:

                                                    http://gypsyscholarship.blogspot.com/

                                                    Office Address:

                                                    Assistant Professor Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                    Department of English Language and Literature
                                                    Korea University
                                                    136-701 Anam-dong, Seongbuk-gu
                                                    Seoul
                                                    South Korea

                                                    Home Address:

                                                    Dr. Sun-Ae Hwang and Dr. Horace Jeffery Hodges
                                                    Sehan Apt. 102-2302
                                                    Sinnae-dong 795
                                                    Jungrang-gu
                                                    Seoul 131-770
                                                    South Korea
                                                  • Q Bee
                                                    ... Paraclete means advocate as in one to plead the case for a defendant. NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: Another Advocate : Jesus is the first advocate
                                                    Message 25 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
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                                                      On Sep 27, 2005, at 1:16 AM, Horace Jeffery Hodges wrote:

                                                      > Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:
                                                      >
                                                      > Anyway, I don't know what "Paraclete" means. My ersatz
                                                      > Doktorvater, Otto Betz, would argue that it doesn't,
                                                      > thus prompting my question. I had hoped -- and still
                                                      > hope -- that someone will figure it out and tell us.
                                                      >
                                                      "Paraclete" means 'advocate' as in one to plead the case for a
                                                      defendant.

                                                      NAB Jn 14:16 - footnote: 'Another Advocate': Jesus is the first
                                                      advocate (paraclete); see 1 John 2:1, where Jesus is an advocate in the
                                                      sense of intercessor in heaven. The Greek term derives from legal
                                                      terminology for an advocate or defense attorney, and can mean
                                                      spokesman, mediator, intercessor, comforter, consoler, although no one
                                                      of these terms encompasses the meaning in John. The Paraclete in John
                                                      is a teacher, a witness to Jesus, and a prosecutor of the world, who
                                                      represents the continued presence on earth of the Jesus who has
                                                      returned to the Father.

                                                      Elaine

                                                      Bp. +M. Elaine Bessette
                                                      Magdal-Eder Mission Seminary
                                                      of the New Order of Glastonbury
                                                      Tacoma, WA
                                                    • Q Bee
                                                      ... I didn t say that we shouldn t. ... The notion of queendom is Neil Douglas-Klotz interpretation from the Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a
                                                      Message 26 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                                      • 0 Attachment
                                                        On Sep 27, 2005, at 12:10 AM, deborahmillier wrote:

                                                        > Elaine wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        >> From the Aramaic standpoint (and that is the language base we
                                                        > should be
                                                        >> dealing with if we are to consider what Jesus may have been
                                                        > saying), ...
                                                        >
                                                        > We should at least consider Hebrew in the mix. don't you think,
                                                        > Elaine?
                                                        >
                                                        I didn't say that we shouldn't.

                                                        >
                                                        >> we can consider the word 'Malkuta' (generally translated
                                                        > as 'kingdom', but
                                                        >> is a feminine word which means 'queen-dom'), Jesus was speaking of
                                                        > a
                                                        >> 'queendom' 'within' or 'among' an individual or group of
                                                        > individuals.
                                                        >
                                                        > Pardon me, but why ever would you say that MALKUTA in Aramaic
                                                        > means "queen-dom"? On the basis of it's *grammatical* gender? Not a
                                                        > sturdy base for making statements such as yours that imply (queen-
                                                        > dom) that a "queen" would be at the helm of the "dom." :)
                                                        >
                                                        The notion of 'queendom' is Neil Douglas-Klotz' interpretation from the
                                                        Aramaic. It does follow that the kingdom is a womb type of place
                                                        within the individual and that the Spirit is also feminine.

                                                        Peace from Tacoma,

                                                        Elaine
                                                      • Tom Butler
                                                        Bob, I think you are asking the right question. Why the translators apparently chose to translate Paraclete as Comforter allows a plausible insight into
                                                        Message 27 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                                        • 0 Attachment
                                                          Bob,
                                                          I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                                          translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                                          as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                                          understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                                          term.
                                                          I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                                          partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                                          comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                                          largely because I see the relevance between the
                                                          Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                                          associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                                          49.
                                                          The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                                          the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                                          of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                                          conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                                          Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                                          body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                                          Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                                          to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                                          I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                                          this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                                          end without dipping my toe into it.

                                                          Yours in Christ's service,
                                                          Tom Butler


                                                          --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                          > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                                          > "Comforter"?
                                                          >
                                                          > The translators of some versions of John use
                                                          > comforter, why?
                                                          > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                                          > along
                                                          > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                                          > might
                                                          > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                                          > archetype as
                                                          > rebuilder of the temple?
                                                          >
                                                          > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                                          > on
                                                          > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                                          > there is an
                                                          > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                                          > this
                                                          > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                                          > the
                                                          > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                                          > righteousness
                                                          > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                                          > word might
                                                          > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                                          > to my
                                                          > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                                          > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                                          >
                                                          > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                                          > here,
                                                          > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                                          > express
                                                          > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                                          >
                                                          > reaching...
                                                          >
                                                          > Bob
                                                          >
                                                          > Bob MacDonald
                                                          > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                          > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                                          >
                                                          > Catch the foxes for us,
                                                          > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                                          > vineyards,
                                                          > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                          <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                        • Bob MacDonald
                                                          Bravo Tom Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost and you found it again. I am suspicious that there is a relationship between paraclete and
                                                          Message 28 of 28 , Sep 27, 2005
                                                          • 0 Attachment
                                                            Bravo Tom

                                                            Somewhere in this dialogue, my original question got lost
                                                            and you found it again.

                                                            I am suspicious that there is a relationship between
                                                            paraclete and naham.

                                                            What is the relationship if any between naham (sorrow,
                                                            repentance) and naham the root of comfort? (In my BDB, these
                                                            both seems to be spelt the same!)

                                                            And one of the main roles of the paraclete is to convict the
                                                            world (us) of sin - and that leads to real 'repentance' and
                                                            're-turn' (cf Peter and the catch of fish).

                                                            Bob

                                                            Bob MacDonald
                                                            http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                            Victoria, B.C., Canada

                                                            Catch the foxes for us,
                                                            the little foxes that make havoc of the vineyards,
                                                            for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)



                                                            -----Original Message-----
                                                            From: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                            [mailto:johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com]On Behalf Of
                                                            Tom Butler
                                                            Sent: Tuesday, September 27, 2005 5:21 PM
                                                            To: johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com
                                                            Subject: RE: [John_Lit] Paraclete


                                                            Bob,
                                                            I think you are asking the right question. Why the
                                                            translators apparently chose to translate "Paraclete"
                                                            as "Comforter" allows a plausible insight into their
                                                            understanding of the scriptural basis for the Greek
                                                            term.
                                                            I like all of the suggestions you made, but am
                                                            partial to the last one [Is Nehemiah (the Lord is
                                                            comfort) an archetype as rebuilder of the temple?],
                                                            largely because I see the relevance between the
                                                            Gospel's theme as revealed in Jn. 2: 19, which I
                                                            associate with Jn. 14: 15-17, Jn. 1: 10-13 and Jn. 24:
                                                            49.
                                                            The theme of the Gospel, in my opinion, grows out of
                                                            the circumstance faced by the early church: the loss
                                                            of the temple. The Gospel is an answer to the
                                                            conundrum faced by the first century Jewish community.
                                                            Jesus has built a new spiritual temple in which His
                                                            body is sacrificed and resurrected, then called the
                                                            Paraclete to come beside those who choose to continue
                                                            to build and maintain that spiritual temple.
                                                            I suspect that the energy that has been poured into
                                                            this discussion has waned, but I couldn't let the day
                                                            end without dipping my toe into it.

                                                            Yours in Christ's service,
                                                            Tom Butler


                                                            --- Bob MacDonald <bobmacdonald@...> wrote:

                                                            > HJH wrote: But does the term "Paraclete" mean
                                                            > "Comforter"?
                                                            >
                                                            > The translators of some versions of John use
                                                            > comforter, why?
                                                            > Were they deliberately evoking Isaiah? Does coming
                                                            > along
                                                            > side of imply a strengthening such as God's comfort
                                                            > might
                                                            > imply? Is Nehemiah (the Lord is comfort) an
                                                            > archetype as
                                                            > rebuilder of the temple?
                                                            >
                                                            > Sometime in the past I have read long dissertations
                                                            > on
                                                            > Paraclete without getting any answer on whether
                                                            > there is an
                                                            > English let alone a Hebrew word that gives rise to
                                                            > this
                                                            > word. That is the import of my question. The role of
                                                            > the
                                                            > Paraclete to reprove the world on sin and of
                                                            > righteousness
                                                            > and of judgment gives some indication of what the
                                                            > word might
                                                            > mean - but where does it come from and with respect
                                                            > to my
                                                            > initial question - what relationship does it have to
                                                            > repentance for Jew or Gentile.
                                                            >
                                                            > I seems to me there might be an early or late idea
                                                            > here,
                                                            > with an Author or author stretching for language to
                                                            > express
                                                            > and invite a response within and beyond tradition.
                                                            >
                                                            > reaching...
                                                            >
                                                            > Bob
                                                            >
                                                            > Bob MacDonald
                                                            > http://bobmacdonald.gx.ca
                                                            > Victoria, B.C., Canada
                                                            >
                                                            > Catch the foxes for us,
                                                            > the little foxes that make havoc of the
                                                            > vineyards,
                                                            > for our vineyards are in flower. (Song 2.15)


                                                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=system color=#0000ff>Yours in
                                                            Christ's service,</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>
                                                            <DIV><STRONG><EM><FONT face=System color=#0000ff>Tom
                                                            Butler</FONT></EM></STRONG></DIV>


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