Re: [John_Lit] John 1:1-10 - my proposed translation
Bill Ross wrote:
> <Joe>Could you please tell just what the Lexicons are that you consulted? Liddel and
> >>Like Jeffrey Gibson, i must also ask why you translate logos as utterance.
> It has to do with the lexicons. It has to do with the context. The lexicons
> I have referred to seem to indicate that a LOGOS is an utterance.
Scott? BDAG? TDNT?
And what do you mean by "seem to indicate"? They either do or they don't state
that LOGOS means "utterance" and more particularly that it is used with this
sense in Jn 1:1. So which is it? And do they draw any distinction between
arthrous and anarthrous LOGOS?
Moreover, is "utterance" **all** that these (as yet un-named) Lexicons indicate
as the meaning with which LOGOS was used in the first century? Perhaps you'd
be kind enough to actually quote the entry on LOGOS that appears in the Lexicons
you "referred to".
> TheGross bifurcation, I fear, since the range of possibilities of what LOGOS might
> context, a direct reference to Genesis 1, and creation, refer not to any 4th
> century Roman born Trinity.
mean in Jn 1:1 is not limited to just "utterance" (if even that is a real
possibility" and some reputed 4th century meaning. (By the way -- the use of
LOGOS as ground of "trinitarian" theology was hardly Roman born. I take it you
haven't read much Athanasius).
In any case, I ask again, what Lexicons have given you the impression that in
first century Greek "a LOGOS" is only an "utterance"?
Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
Chicago, IL 60626
- --- Bill Ross <BillRoss@...> wrote:
> <B>Can you provide us with any evidence for this
> My stated premise for my translation of "utterance"
> has not been addressed.
> Let my restate it for closer scrutiny...
> When John says "EN ARKH" ISTM that most translators
> understand him to be
> saying "Once upon a time..."
statement? I have some handbooks on the Gospel of John
written by translators, some commentaries in which the
commentators give their own translations and discuss
what they mean by them, and some works by John scolars
like C.H. Dodd who discuss Jn. 1:1, and none of them
give any hint that they have the understanding you say
"most translators" do.
So could you produce something from a translator that
shows that "Once upon a time" is what ytasnaltors
understand John to be saying in 1:1?
whereas I hear him
> saying "Ladies andNow I'm really confused. Are you saying that it is
> gentlemen, if you would, please turn in you
> Septuagint to page 1. I am going
> to tell you who is being referred to by the word
> "us" in "Let us make
John's intent to say that God made the world through
the male and the female he created in Gen 1:26?
>But this is expressly what he does not say about
> The main think that John is expounding, I believe,
> is that in Gen 1,
> everything that was made, without exception, was
> made in conjunction with
> the utterance, "let there be...".
"man". There is a conspicuous absence of the let
there be phrase in the section of Gen 1 where God
creates "man, both male and female" in his image.
>You are missing a clause here. Is your fundamental
> In the course of this discussion, I realize that my
> objection to "the word"
> (non-capitalized only) is not so much linguistic as
> it is to the baggage
> that the term is made to carry - that it is a
> reference to something from
> Greek philosophy rather than God's word(s).
> So, I ask, is my fundamental interpretation, that EN
> ARKH refers us to Gen
> 1, and "PROS TON THEON" refers us to "let us
> make..." and "by means of hO
> LOGOS everything was made" refers us to "Let there
interpretaion what? Reasonable? I don't see how it
could be. What possible lingusitic or allusive
connection could there be between "he was with God"
and the divibe declaration of intent to make humankind
in God's image in Gen 1:26? And it becomes even more
unlikely given how Dr. Gibson has shown how all that
John says about the LOGOS in John 1:1 is what Jews
were saying about the Torah.
R. Robert Jenkins
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