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Re: James and Clopas

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  • Q Bee
    ... Dear Bill, Thank you for pointing this out. It is a great parallel. I find it interesting that mark tells the tale and has Jesus declaring that the tale
    Message 1 of 22 , Jul 10, 2004
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      > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 10:45:39 +0100
      > From: "Bill Bullin" <bill.bullin@...>
      > Subject: Re: Re: James and Clopas
      >
      >
      Elaine wrote:

      >> I tend to agree that it has prospects of having been the first gospel. It
      >> would make sense as time went on the have a need to ground the high
      >> Christology of 4G with other accounts that render Jesus as more human so
      >> that he would appear to be less mythical.
      >
      >
      Bill offered:
      >
      > Is it possible that 2 Cor. 2:14-17 in some way alludes to John 12:3 (or
      > memorable historical tradition underlying it), and a Johannine
      > 'christological glorious triumphal procession moment' in the divine
      > Presence, contrasting MB, salvation and knowing with Judas, perishing and
      > selling? Smells and perfumes are thought to evoke deep memories. Whilst
      > Judas seems to have left a deep scar on the primitive Christian memory Mark
      > 14:9, if not John 12 promises incomparably sweeter memories. It is
      > interesting that John 12 provided no clarifications for 'Readers of Mark'
      > where it might be expected, ie something like: 'Lazarus who was also known
      > as Simon the leper' or Lazarus, son of Simon the leper'. What does this say
      > about the development of mark and John?

      Dear Bill,

      Thank you for pointing this out. It is a great parallel.

      I find it interesting that mark tells the tale and has Jesus declaring that
      the tale will be told in her memory, but he never bothers to say who the
      woman was. This seems like a progression out of 4G to me. The male faction
      was now retelling the tale, leaving out the intimate details that make the
      author of 4G sound like the way that women give information.

      How very odd of Mark to say that Jesus actually said ... wherever the gospel
      was proclaimed it would be told in memory of 'her'. Well, Mark... Just who
      should be proclaimed? Obviously, by also omitting any references to connect
      Simon and Lazarus sounds to me like Mark has got some pieces of second hand
      stories out of John or deliberately downplaying the events at Bethany and
      the names of the cast.

      Peace,

      Elaine
    • Q Bee
      ... (snip) ... Dear Peter, Are we going too far from 4G? I hope we will not be chastised for wandering. Luke is the patron Saint of iconographers. The
      Message 2 of 22 , Jul 10, 2004
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        > Date: Fri, 9 Jul 2004 15:18:25 +0200
        > From: Peter Hofrichter <Peter.Hofrichter@...>
        > Subject: Re: Re: James and Clopas
        >
        > Dear Elaine,
        > only Some additions!
        > Peter
        >
        (snip)

        > Therefore MM was banished from Jesus‘ life. and downgraded as an
        > possessed and sinner, what I do'nt believe she really was. It is only
        > Luke who at the one hand explicitely downgrades MM and at the other
        > gives Mary as the Mother of Jesus a new and glorious personality.
        > Therefore his is called the "painter of Mary" and many old pictures of
        > the Holy Virgin are said to have been painted by him.

        Dear Peter,

        Are we going too far from 4G? I hope we will not be chastised for
        wandering.

        Luke is the patron Saint of iconographers. The tradition is that the Black
        Madonna, "Our Lady of Czestochowa" was painted on a small table top
        purportedly a piece of furniture made by Jesus in Joseph's shop. I find
        this amusing since it is a Nazirite woman with a black mantle that is
        covered with gold fleur-de-lis. It is obviously not 1st century and it is
        far more likely to be an image of MM.

        Peace,

        Elaine
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