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Re: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth "nonexistant"

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  • Jack Kilmon
    ... From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:08 PM Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth
    Message 1 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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      ----- Original Message -----
      From: <LeeEdgarTyler@...>
      To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:08 PM
      Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth "nonexistant"


      >
      > In a message dated 6/13/2004 2:17:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
      > martin.edwards5@... writes:
      >
      > snipped for the sake of good taste...
      >
      >
      > You are a
      > sophist and a troll.
      >
      > Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales)
      > Last gig: Moseley High School, Birmingham, last Wednesday.
      >
      >
      > -----
      >
      > What does any of this tirade have to do with the assertion that Nazareth
      did
      > not exist until it found mention in extant written texts?


      Actually, we have gotten through the misunderstanding regarding a
      nonexistent Nazareth. Since it cannot be refuted that Nazareth had existed
      back to Iron II by archaeological excavations (So had Sepphoris), the
      question REALLY is what were they called. We cannot know because the record
      is silent. I can only go by the precedent of place names in ancient
      Palestine rarely changing, i.e. Hazor, Shechem, Beyt Shearan, etc. I would
      have no problem having them change the name of Nazareth to
      Kilmoneth....probably won't though.

      Jack
    • mr_atoz@yahoo.com
      Jack, I suspect that Nazareth may not even have been recognized as a town until the 2nd or 3rd centuries BCE. Following others, esp. the late Prof. Bargil
      Message 2 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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        Jack,
        I suspect that Nazareth may not even have been recognized as a "town"
        until the 2nd or 3rd centuries BCE. Following others, esp. the late
        Prof. Bargil Pixnar, I believe Nazareth was but a hamlet that was
        dependent upon its larger neighbor Japhia about 2 miles to the south.
        I do strongly recommend Pixnar's book "With Jesus Through Galilee
        According To The Fifth Gospel". It's about $25 American money but
        must be ordered through Corazin Press in Israel. (Although I think
        BAR magazine may offer it)
        Kilmoneth...ah yes I know it well. It's just a few miles from
        Jackrusalem isn't it? Lots of tourists from Beth-Wayne go there.
        --WH
        --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jack Kilmon"
        <jkilmon@h...> wrote:
        > ----- Original Message -----
        > From: <LeeEdgarTyler@a...>
        > To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
        > Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 3:08 PM
        > Subject: Re: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth "nonexistant"
        >
        >
        > >
        > > In a message dated 6/13/2004 2:17:46 PM Central Daylight Time,
        > > martin.edwards5@b... writes:
        > >
        > > snipped for the sake of good taste...
        > >
        > >
        > > You are a
        > > sophist and a troll.
        > >
        > > Martin Edwards BA(UEA) PGCE(Hull) RT(England and Wales)
        > > Last gig: Moseley High School, Birmingham, last Wednesday.
        > >
        > >
        > > -----
        > >
        > > What does any of this tirade have to do with the assertion that
        Nazareth
        > did
        > > not exist until it found mention in extant written texts?
        >
        >
        > Actually, we have gotten through the misunderstanding regarding a
        > nonexistent Nazareth. Since it cannot be refuted that Nazareth had
        existed
        > back to Iron II by archaeological excavations (So had Sepphoris),
        the
        > question REALLY is what were they called. We cannot know because
        the record
        > is silent. I can only go by the precedent of place names in ancient
        > Palestine rarely changing, i.e. Hazor, Shechem, Beyt Shearan, etc.
        I would
        > have no problem having them change the name of Nazareth to
        > Kilmoneth....probably won't though.
        >
        > Jack
      • Jeffrey B. Gibson
        ... Geeze. All I wanted to know was whether Wayne s sole criteria for whether or not something existed was whether or not it is mentioned in Jewish
        Message 3 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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          Martin Edwards wrote:

          > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
          > <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
          > >
          > >
          > > mr_atoz@y... wrote:
          > >
          > > > Unless someone can find an OT reference to a Jesus from the--as yet
          > > > nonexistant--town of Nazareth
          > >
          > > What do you mean by "nonexistant"?
          > >
          > > Jeffrey
          > > --
          > >
          > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
          > >
          > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          > > Chicago, IL 60626
          > >
          > > jgibson000@c...
          >
          > He means exactly what he says: he just spelt it wrong. I'm not so sure
          > you really are an Oxford man. Anyone can say they have an Oxford
          > degree and Americans are easily impressed by such things. You give a
          > Chicago private address, but no current institution. Your
          > argumentative methods are:
          > 1) asking for definitions of terms that any moderately educated person
          > understands;
          > 2) quoting other posters' terms with the implication that their very
          > use is ridiculous;
          > 3) ridicule pure and simple;
          > 4) asking if the poster has read long reading lists with the
          > implication that you have. I should like to exhume your lambasting me
          > with Klassen and others on the subject of Judas. It turns out that
          > these are all based on the Biblical text and the assumption that Judas
          > existed. The assumption itself is not examined. I have read Eisenman
          > three times, and the arguments for Judas being a literary device used
          > to discredit the Desposyni are sound. I do not say that they are
          > proved, only that they are sound. One may, of course, follow the
          > Stanton doctrine that no theory outside the concensus is worthy of
          > consideration unless it is conclusively proved: I do not. You are a
          > sophist and a troll.

          Geeze. All I wanted to know was whether Wayne's sole criteria for whether or
          not something existed was whether or not it is mentioned in Jewish literature.

          Jeffrey

          --

          Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)

          1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
          Chicago, IL 60626

          jgibson000@...
        • mr_atoz@yahoo.com
          Greetings, Jeff, Your question is, obviously, a quite valid one, sir. I maintain that Nazareth was not there in the 6-7th cent. BCE timeframe even though
          Message 4 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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            Greetings, Jeff,
            Your question is, obviously, a quite valid one, sir. I maintain that
            Nazareth was not there in the 6-7th cent. BCE timeframe even though
            absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Jack believes it was
            there also though, like me, with absence of evidence.
            I will say, however, (and this, too, proves nothing) that the towns
            proximate to Nazareth ARE mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Dabaritha;
            Japhia; Kisloth; Shimron; Gath-Hepher (Jonah); Bethlehem Galilee;
            Heleph; Rumah; Rimmon; Asnoth Tabor; Endor; Anaharath and etc. These
            towns completely surround Nazareth in a 10-mile radius. It means
            that, if Jack is correct, Nazareth is the ONLY town in that entire
            area that somehow remained unmentioned. I find this highly improbable
            though I'm content to let this issue drop and move on and I expect
            Jack probably is too as we've taken it about as far as we're going to
            be able to.
            So what's next on the agenda?
            --Wayne in Indiana
            --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
            <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Martin Edwards wrote:
            >
            > > --- In johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey B. Gibson"
            > > <jgibson000@c...> wrote:
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > mr_atoz@y... wrote:
            > > >
            > > > > Unless someone can find an OT reference to a Jesus from the--
            as yet
            > > > > nonexistant--town of Nazareth
            > > >
            > > > What do you mean by "nonexistant"?
            > > >
            > > > Jeffrey
            > > > --
            > > >
            > > > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
            > > >
            > > > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            > > > Chicago, IL 60626
            > > >
            > > > jgibson000@c...
            > >
            > > He means exactly what he says: he just spelt it wrong. I'm not so
            sure
            > > you really are an Oxford man. Anyone can say they have an Oxford
            > > degree and Americans are easily impressed by such things. You
            give a
            > > Chicago private address, but no current institution. Your
            > > argumentative methods are:
            > > 1) asking for definitions of terms that any moderately educated
            person
            > > understands;
            > > 2) quoting other posters' terms with the implication that their
            very
            > > use is ridiculous;
            > > 3) ridicule pure and simple;
            > > 4) asking if the poster has read long reading lists with the
            > > implication that you have. I should like to exhume your
            lambasting me
            > > with Klassen and others on the subject of Judas. It turns out
            that
            > > these are all based on the Biblical text and the assumption that
            Judas
            > > existed. The assumption itself is not examined. I have read
            Eisenman
            > > three times, and the arguments for Judas being a literary device
            used
            > > to discredit the Desposyni are sound. I do not say that they are
            > > proved, only that they are sound. One may, of course, follow the
            > > Stanton doctrine that no theory outside the concensus is worthy of
            > > consideration unless it is conclusively proved: I do not. You
            are a
            > > sophist and a troll.
            >
            > Geeze. All I wanted to know was whether Wayne's sole criteria for
            whether or
            > not something existed was whether or not it is mentioned in Jewish
            literature.
            >
            > Jeffrey
            >
            > --
            >
            > Jeffrey B. Gibson, D.Phil. (Oxon.)
            >
            > 1500 W. Pratt Blvd. #1
            > Chicago, IL 60626
            >
            > jgibson000@c...
          • Jack Kilmon
            ... From: To: Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 11:34 PM Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth nonexistant
            Message 5 of 7 , Jun 13, 2004
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              ----- Original Message -----
              From: <mr_atoz@...>
              To: <johannine_literature@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Sunday, June 13, 2004 11:34 PM
              Subject: [John_Lit] Re: Nazareth "nonexistant"


              > Greetings, Jeff,
              > Your question is, obviously, a quite valid one, sir. I maintain that
              > Nazareth was not there in the 6-7th cent. BCE timeframe even though
              > absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Jack believes it was
              > there also though, like me, with absence of evidence.

              No, I claim it was there WITH the evidence of Bagatti's excavation reported
              in B. Bagatti, Excavations in Nazareth, 1969. Bagatti, excavating around
              and about the Church of the Annunciation found Bronze Age tombs and Iron age
              silos, olive presses, cisterns, etc. There are also the recent excavations
              of the Nazareth Farm.


              > I will say, however, (and this, too, proves nothing) that the towns
              > proximate to Nazareth ARE mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. Dabaritha;
              > Japhia; Kisloth; Shimron; Gath-Hepher (Jonah); Bethlehem Galilee;
              > Heleph; Rumah; Rimmon; Asnoth Tabor; Endor; Anaharath and etc. These
              > towns completely surround Nazareth in a 10-mile radius. It means
              > that, if Jack is correct, Nazareth is the ONLY town in that entire
              > area that somehow remained unmentioned.

              No, Zippori/Sepphoris, a site occupied by the Assyrians in the 7th century
              BCE, also the Babylonians and an administrative site for Galilee from the
              Persian through the Hellenistic and Roman period, is ALSO, like it's
              sattelite hamlet, Nazareth, not mentioned in the texts.

              >I find this highly improbable

              I do not since most of the texts we have were written in the south
              (Israel-Judah) by folks who though the Galilee was for hicks.

              > though I'm content to let this issue drop and move on and I expect
              > Jack probably is too as we've taken it about as far as we're going to
              > be able to.
              > So what's next on the agenda?
              > --Wayne in Indiana

              How about the literary content of the Johannine literature? <g>

              Jack
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